Star Wars vs Star Trek shields

[Admiral Breetai]

And "dishonest debating behavior"? I once requested evidence from Breentai (in a separate thread). The response was (and I am not lying nor taking quotes out of context):

I am formally and officially accusing you of out right dishonesty and attempting to play the victim to escape mod retribution for your blatant trolling. I explained to you in that very thread exactly why in that situation I'm not obligated to prove to you anything and it's entirely legit..your the one spouting off like some expert yet making openly and irrefutably obvious errors and lying you think you know so much back your own bullshit claims up

One of Breentai's posts admits that he's using a double standard, but that it's ok because "us warsies deserve it."

and there you go lying again what I said was I'm going to automatically dismiss calculations made by wong and made by DOW's due to the well documented attempts to lie distort and misrepresent and wide spread doctoring of evidence I am within my right to do so...entirely as the mods have said previously in this thread

I have asked for evidence before, and what I get is (not paraphrased):

lol

when you make an outrageous claim it will not be debated it will be laughed at since they wont allow me to mock you..even though your continued existence here represents a thread to the ability of the forum

[StarWarsStarTrek]

So let me get this straight:

The Enterprise was FINE as it was entering orbit of the star. However, a solar flare hit it, and its shields went down to 23%.

At 150,000 km.

Forgive me if my math got messed up...but that measures out to be about 40 megajoules...or a shot from this:

and there you go lying again what I said was I'm going to automatically dismiss calculations made by wong and made by DOW's due to the well documented attempts to lie distort and misrepresent and wide spread doctoring of evidence I am within my right to do so

No it is not. The past calculations of Mike are not relevant to THIS calculation of Mike, which IS PROVIDED TO YOU and can easily be refuted if it were indeed filled with lies and deception. You have the calculation in front of you. If it were invalid, you could have examined it and have done so.

But you didn't.

[Admiral Breetai]

Forgive me if my math got messed up...but that measures out to be about 40 megajoules...or a shot from this:

[

you just tried to claim that a world war two battleship could drop the enterprise shields..you deserve to be banned just for making such an asinine comment

No it is not. The past calculations of Mike are not relevant to THIS calculation of Mike, which IS PROVIDED TO YOU and can easily be refuted if it were indeed filled with lies and deception. You have the calculation in front of you. If it were invalid, you could have examined it and have done so.[

umm no genius a person much like a fictional character over all history is entirely relevant to the debate at hand..as such I am making a judgement based off my experiences in a four year long board war fought against DOW's and SDners and am entirely within my right to do so

I am certainly more qualified then you to do so

But you didn't.

I don't have to on the grounds that third party interpretations aren't valid but I choose to do so based off the massive biased

[Mike DiCenso]

So let me get this straight:

The Enterprise was FINE as it was entering orbit of the star. However, a solar flare hit it, and its shields went down to 23%.

At 150,000 km.

Forgive me if my math got messed up...but that measures out to be about 40 megajoules...or a shot from this:

Disengeous tactic noted. The E-D had suffered massive damage from being pulled inside the Dyson Sphere when they accidently triggered the comlink system that controled the space doors and their attendent tractor beams and was on auxilary power. Meaning they did not have main power to operate the shields fully, and we don't even know if the shields are at 23% of main power or of what they can be powered on secondary sources.

In fact, auxilary power was stated to be failing:

Ensign : 'We've lost main power, auxiliary power down to 20%.'

Worf : 'We are being pulled inside.'

Ensign : 'Auxiliary power failing.'

Data: 'The resonance frequency of the tractor beams is incompatible with our power systems. Warp and impulse engine relays have been overloaded. I am attempting to compensate.'

Ensign : 'The tractor beams have released us sir.'

Riker : 'Hold position here until we can get our bearing.'

Picard : 'Full sensor sweep Mister Data. Where are we?'

Data : 'Approximately 90 million km from the stars photosphere. I am reading a great deal of surface instabilityIt may be-'

Ensign : 'Sir. The inertial motion of the tractor beams is still carrying us forward. Impulse engines are offline and I can't stop our momentum. We're falling directly into the star.'

Also we get an early report on the surface instability of the star, again reinforcing that the output was not normal.

As for the 150,000 km issue, this is Graham Kennedy's calculations from DITL:

Assuming the former, we can calculate the power intensity incident on the Enterprise-D as :

Ei = 1.6 x 1026 / (4 x pi x (1.5 x 108) 2)
= 1.6 x 1026 / 2.83 x 1017
= 5.66 x 108 Wm-2

The area of the shields is not precisely known; however, they are approximately ellipsoid and measure some 750 x 250 metres when seen from the side. The ship should thus intercept approximately 147,281.25 m2. Therefore the total power on the ships shields would be :

P = 5.66 x 108 x 147,281.25
= 8.336 x 1013 Watts
= 83.36 TeraWatts

So in three hours, the shields would need to absorb a total of :

E = 8.336 x 1013 x 3600 x 3
= 9 x 1017 Joules

His assumptions are also conservative since the E-D does not have such small shield surface area since it's cross section would be an ellipse. So 147,281 x pi = 462,696.91 meters squared. That places the wattage well over 260 TW. Since the output of the star from the instability and solar flares was continuing to grow, these would only be very lower limits.

Care to try again?
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Just one small note.
It is preferable to use a cross section of a shield volume actually, since after all energy transfer by particles (radiations, plasma, etc.) are small scale kinetics, and just like large kinetics, lots of the energy gets wasted if the angle is too wide.
Using half the surface area of a shield is quite a way to obtain a high end.
True, this is a tad more problematic when making calculations about ships being very close to stars, if only for the fact that it's hard to take into account the radiations from solar flares and other magnetic forces.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

So let me get this straight:

Incoming dishonestly and idiocy alert!!!!.

The Enterprise was FINE as it was entering orbit of the star. However, a solar flare hit it, and its shields went down to 23%.

At 150,000 km.

Oh look i was right...

1. The ship was at 150,000km for a significant amount of time prior to the flare that caused them to raise the shields.

2.The ship and its main systems were already damaged so when the shields were raised they were at 23%.

3. It is clearly stated that the solar flares are going to get worse and yet the shields could last 3 hours of pounding from them (so if the flare knocked them down to 23% then how could they last 3 hours of even worse pounding).

Forgive me if my math got messed up...

No you are not forgiven as you are a typical wongite who has had the delusion shattered looking to twist and troll the facts.

Still the page will turn soon and you will likely pretend the bad men have not once again destroyed your fantasy that SDN is a datrabase of pure accuracy.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

you just tried to claim that a world war two battleship could drop the enterprise shields..you deserve to be banned just for making such an asinine comment

If you want attempt to ban the Inverse Square Law of radiation, be my guest.

umm no genius a person much like a fictional character over all history is entirely relevant to the debate at hand..as such I am making a judgement based off my experiences in a four year long board war fought against DOW's and SDners and am entirely within my right to do so

I am certainly more qualified then you to do so

But you didn't.

If you did not have the link to your calculations, what you are basing your judgment off may be understandable (wrong IMO, but understandable).

But since you can IRREFUTABLY decide for yourself the validity of his arguments by simply viewing the calculations, why do you have to base your judgment off of circumstantial guilt?

I don't have to on the grounds that third party interpretations aren't valid but I choose to do so based off the massive biased

If it is bias, you have to prove bias on that specific calculation. Somebody can be wrong on everything but one calculation in which he/she gets right. You cannot dismiss a calculation based on past calculations without proof that THIS calculation is flawed.

Why are you so desperate to not simply click on the link, look over it and explain how it is, in your opinion, wrong?

Disengeous tactic noted. The E-D had suffered massive damage from being pulled inside the Dyson Sphere when they accidently triggered the comlink system that controled the space doors and their attendent tractor beams and was on auxilary power. Meaning they did not have main power to operate the shields fully, and we don't even know if the shields are at 23% of main power or of what they can be powered on secondary sources.

In fact, auxilary power was stated to be failing:

Ensign : 'We've lost main power, auxiliary power down to 20%.'

Worf : 'We are being pulled inside.'

Ensign : 'Auxiliary power failing.'

Data: 'The resonance frequency of the tractor beams is incompatible with our power systems. Warp and impulse engine relays have been overloaded. I am attempting to compensate.'

Ensign : 'The tractor beams have released us sir.'

Riker : 'Hold position here until we can get our bearing.'

Picard : 'Full sensor sweep Mister Data. Where are we?'

Data : 'Approximately 90 million km from the stars photosphere. I am reading a great deal of surface instabilityIt may be-'

Ensign : 'Sir. The inertial motion of the tractor beams is still carrying us forward. Impulse engines are offline and I can't stop our momentum. We're falling directly into the star.'

Also we get an early report on the surface instability of the star, again reinforcing that the output was not normal.

Ok, so they were running on auxiliary power. But what is auxiliary power for?

We know that said shields are put up when the main shields are down or not functioning. Therefore, auxiliary shields are expected to be able to take hits from weapons designed to take out primary shields for long enough for repairs to be made or for the ship to escape.

Therefore, although the aux shields are obviously weaker than the main shields, they have to be a significant enough portion of said shields in power (10%+, as a ball-park) to actually be relevant.

So if the aux shields can apparently get reduced to about 20% by a 40 megajoule burst of radiation, it would be ridiculous to think that the main shields could take petajoules. That would mean that the aux shields would have about 0.00001% of the power of the main shields, so even a tiny fraction of a percentage of a photon torpedo would take it out. Therefore, by this solar flare incident that you brought up (which I do not necessarily believe in), the main shields of the Enterprise could take, at most, a few gigajoules.

...which happens to fit very accurately with many low end showings of a few gigajoules threatening the Enterprise.

As for the 150,000 km issue, this is Graham Kennedy's calculations from DITL:

Assuming the former, we can calculate the power intensity incident on the Enterprise-D as :

Ei = 1.6 x 1026 / (4 x pi x (1.5 x 108) 2)
= 1.6 x 1026 / 2.83 x 1017
= 5.66 x 108 Wm-2

The area of the shields is not precisely known; however, they are approximately ellipsoid and measure some 750 x 250 metres when seen from the side. The ship should thus intercept approximately 147,281.25 m2. Therefore the total power on the ships shields would be :

P = 5.66 x 108 x 147,281.25
= 8.336 x 1013 Watts
= 83.36 TeraWatts

So in three hours, the shields would need to absorb a total of :

E = 8.336 x 1013 x 3600 x 3
= 9 x 1017 Joules

His assumptions are also conservative since the E-D does not have such small shield surface area since it's cross section would be an ellipse. So 147,281 x pi = 462,696.91 meters squared. That places the wattage well over 260 TW. Since the output of the star from the instability and solar flares was continuing to grow, these would only be very lower limits.

...

9 times 10^17 joules is 215 megatons. The only variation between his and Mike Wong's calculations was the area of the shield bubble.

So 215 megatons? Spread out, so there's no guarantee that they could take it all at once.

Given that Star Wars: Slave Ship states that space laser cannons have explosions in the gigatonne range, this isn't that much, is it?

Even if we use his stran
Care to try again?
-Mike

Care to try what again? The only difference between our cited calculations is the shield size. Why would the length of the shield be twice that of the Enterprise?

[Mike DiCenso]

Ok, so they were running on auxiliary power. But what is auxiliary power for?

We know that said shields are put up when the main shields are down or not functioning. Therefore, auxiliary shields are expected to be able to take hits from weapons designed to take out primary shields for long enough for repairs to be made or for the ship to escape.

Therefore, although the aux shields are obviously weaker than the main shields, they have to be a significant enough portion of said shields in power (10%+, as a ball-park) to actually be relevant.

So if the aux shields can apparently get reduced to about 20% by a 40 megajoule burst of radiation, it would be ridiculous to think that the main shields could take petajoules. That would mean that the aux shields would have about 0.00001% of the power of the main shields, so even a tiny fraction of a percentage of a photon torpedo would take it out. Therefore, by this solar flare incident that you brought up (which I do not necessarily believe in), the main shields of the Enterprise could take, at most, a few gigajoules.

...which happens to fit very accurately with many low end showings of a few gigajoules threatening the Enterprise.

These are all big assumptions on your part, and a massive amount of fallacious reasoning to jump around the issue, while in turn trying to maintain your belief in only a few gigajoules threatening the E-D, none of which is true. I would ask you to immediately cite the dialog or circumstances where a few gigajoules have ever threatened the E-D. Given what we know about your knowledge of Trek and your apparent increasing dishonesty with sources (the Star Wars Database claims, for example), I would not except your mere word.

Furthermore, your random 40 megajoule number is without any basis whatsoever. I would ask that you immediately provide calculations for that. Simply citing the inverse square law is not sufficent as even at 150,000 km, the E-D is still getting 80-100 megawatts per meter squared.

I have yet to see you actually cite any canon episode or movie that says any such thing is possible. By your own admission, the E-D's shields, even when severely weakened, are capable of handling double-digit megatons, even when heavily damaged. Gigajoules are peanuts compared to that.

The solar flare situation is quite real, and it is duly noted that you have once again failed to address the evidence provided, both in extensive quotes of the canon dialog as well as the actual images I provided from "Relics" showing the solar flares and the E-D even inside one.

9 times 10^17 joules is 215 megatons. The only variation between his and Mike Wong's calculations was the area of the shield bubble.

So 215 megatons? Spread out, so there's no guarantee that they could take it all at once.

Given that Star Wars: Slave Ship states that space laser cannons have explosions in the gigatonne range, this isn't that much, is it?

Shields in Trek work like a giant battery. That's why the Borg tractor beam in episodes like "Q Who?" drain the shields. It's why we get the shields being reduced a percentage almost every hit with ever increasing amounts of bleedthrough damage, and it's why the shields here were not going to collapse for several hours on auxilary power in "Relics".

By the way, I note your incorrect referencing of "Slave Ship" with the gigatonnage recoil issue.

Care to try what again? The only difference between our cited calculations is the shield size. Why would the length of the shield be twice that of the Enterprise?

The E-D is 642 meters long, 750 meter or even 800 meter shields would not be "twice that of the E-D". That's at most around 20% longer than the ship. The big difference is that Graham Kennedy makes note that his calculations are highly conservative numbers given the circumstances of the episode. The E-D was heavily damaged, on secondary power sources, and the star was not steady-state in it's output, but rather getting more energetic over time, and the E-D herself was exposed directly to the massive solar flare. Thus the primary difference: one set of calcs is providing a lower limit (Graham Kennedy by noting the circumstances), the other is claiming upper limits (Wong ignoring the episode's information).

If you continue to ignore these points, as well as the evidence provided, I will have to assume you are intentionally being obtuse and are just debating dishonestly, and will have to act accordingly.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

If you want attempt to ban the Inverse Square Law of radiation, be my guest.

so your seriously going to continue to claim this?

If you did not have the link to your calculations, what you are basing your judgment off may be understandable (wrong IMO, but understandable).

what calculations in all the four years we fought those maniacs we never bothered to do anything of the sort we simply went by feats and debunked them that way

But since you can IRREFUTABLY decide for yourself the validity of his arguments by simply viewing the calculations, why do you have to base your judgment off of circumstantial guilt?

the entire history of the individuals and they're well documented biased is grounds for dismissal

If it is bias, you have to prove bias on that specific calculation. Somebody can be wrong on everything but one calculation in which he/she gets right. You cannot dismiss a calculation based on past calculations without proof that THIS calculation is flawed.

no you are the one using an individual known for being well an extremist and biased you want to site such a controversial source you prove his actions are solid

Why are you so desperate to not simply click on the link, look over it and explain how it is, in your opinion, wrong?

I'm not desperate at all simply put you aren't capable of forming your own opinions regarding star wars if they aren't from wong or his site...you have proven you wont listen to reason and are flat out guilty of dishonesty...under these circumstances I am no longer obligated to oblige you in any way

[Picard]

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/f ... ields.html

Something I did quite some time ago. Not sure if it's correct, thought.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Ok, so they were running on auxiliary power. But what is auxiliary power for?

It is used when the other power systems fail or sometimes to augment them.

We know that said shields are put up when the main shields are down or not functioning.

Therefore, auxiliary shields are expected to be able to take hits from weapons designed to take out primary shields for long enough for repairs to be made or for the ship to escape.

Therefore, although the aux shields are obviously weaker than the main shields, they have to be a significant enough portion of said shields in power (10%+, as a ball-park) to actually be relevant.

Do we, i suggest you provide proof for that claim.

Material regarding these auxiliary shields especially would be nice as auxiliary power was what was mentioned in the episode and aux shields are never mentioned in a trek episode or movie ever as far as i know.

So if the aux shields can apparently get reduced to about 20% by a 40 megajoule burst of radiation, it would be ridiculous to think that the main shields could take petajoules.

Auxiluary POWER was reduced to 20% because of the effects of the tractor beam, IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE DIALOG.

Ensign : 'We've lost main power, auxiliary power down to 20%.'

Worf : 'We are being pulled inside.'

Ensign : 'Auxiliary power failing.'

As you can see they were not even fully inside the sphere at that point let alone near the star.

That would mean the rest of what i have posted is as worthless as all my other trolling.

Correct.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Mike i looked over the Graham Kennedy's calculations you posted earlier in the thread and i was wondering if it factors in that it is clearly mentioned that the sun is ejecting matter as well as radiation.

DATA:

Our sensors show that the star
is extremely unstable. It is
experiencing severe bursts of
radiation and matter expulsions.

The calcs seem to use the standard output from a star and ignore the impacts of the material ect from the flares.

[Mike DiCenso]

Find my earliest post in this thread and click on the link I provided to Graham's shield calculation page, and read it throughly. In his article, he discusses several key confounding variables in making the calculations.

By everything discussed here, the calcs are highly conservative estimates since we cannot know precisely how much more the solar flares, surface instability, radiation and matter expulsions contributed above and beyond the original output of the star when the E-D first went into orbit around it.

As I said to SWST, if you properly read Graham's article and what I've posted here, you'll realize why Wong's calculation assumptions are just another piece of bogus propaganda, like everything else on his page.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Find my earliest post in this thread and click on the link I provided to Graham's shield calculation page, and read it throughly. In his article, he discusses several key confounding variables in making the calculations.

By everything discussed here, the calcs are highly conservative estimates since we cannot know precisely how much more the solar flares, surface instability, radiation and matter expulsions contributed above and beyond the original output of the star when the E-D first went into orbit around it.

Reading is pretty easy but as it is me fully understanding is not so simple :).

As I said to SWST, if you properly read Graham's article and what I've posted here, you'll realize why Wong's calculation assumptions are just another piece of bogus propaganda, like everything else on his page.
-Mike

Well as to that i have added a few points that show SWST obvious dishonesty and trolling like the fact that the E-D was at 150,000km orbit for quite some time before the shields were raised ect.

And later his claims of this all new to trek (as it is not mentioned in any episide or movie ever) "auxiluary shielding" he is now raving about and claiming was knocked down to 20% by the star even though it was nailed to that level by the tractor beam even before they were pulled into the sphere.

[Mike DiCenso]

You only have to understand that is that the shields were being powered by auxilary sources as a result of the Dyson Sphere tractor beams overloading the main power systems, leaving the ship in a severely damaged state. This is something that Wong does not adequately address, except to brush them off with pseudo-scientific sound BS crap like "oh well, the star must not have been normal output because the inner surface of the Dyson Sphere was not roasting at 100,000 million km". However, this does not take into account anything else as confounding variables, such as the extremely advanced nature of the Sphere itself, and how it might be providing protection to the surface, or the fact that we don't really get a good look at the inner surface of the Sphere since it is not important to anything. Sure we see what appear to be bodies of water... which would be incomprehensibly gigantic by any Earthly standard given that the surface area of the Dyson Sphere is worth hundreds of millions of planets! So even if the oceans boiling off, it would take a very long time to do so. Millions of years, in fact to get rid of that much water!

So, what it boils down to is that you have to realize that with the other aforementioned variables, any steady-state calculations are incredibly conservative.
-Mike