The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

[Praeothmin]

Well, WILGA, I believe Saavik had it right:
The very purpose of the Federation is to protect innocent people's lives.
If, from the get go, we don't know there are Klingons, we can't prove it's a trap and there's a very good chance we may be risking the lives of 300 innocent persons, then I would go in, broadcast our rescue mission, and do everything I could to protect the lives of my crew and my ship...

That is, if the Federation ever considered a coward and a sissy like me command worthy... :)

[GStone]

The idea of asking a student how they would ask someone to go into hungry shark infested waters is intended to be sadistic. To see the one asked squirm at trying to answer and then trying to trick them. In that situation, if a third one was there who could only watch and speak to the other two, they wouldn't say anything when the topic is brought up. In most situations like that, it is not debated, it's just done.

Plus, not all sharks are gonna chow down on a person really, even when they're starving. Not all sharks eat the same thing and just because they're hungry doesn't mean they're all gonna wanna bite. The idea 'they're really really hungry' does fly. Some sharks might take on a person, but not all. It'd have been better and more accurate to say hungry piranah. Saying hungry sharks is a play on their own stupidity or someone elses, if they think sharks would regularly eat people.

[Mike DiCenso]

And the questions remains how he could reach the Klingons if they would have jammend all the frequencies.

That presupposes that Peter Kirk took his ship in to attempt the rescue before attempting to contact the Klingons and proposing to challenge their leader's honor. Saavik went charging right in in violation of he treat boundaries and did not attempt to communicate at all beforehand.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

What about dropping out of warp, having sensors ready to pick up all necessary data about the Maru, buzz off within the second?
With this data, one could know how to fire a certain amount of torpedoes all at once, to damage the cloaked ships.

Obviously in times of war with Klingons, Starfleet Commanders should get a clue. Rules would need to change, although a trigger happy stance is obviously only fueling an escalation of war.

That's why I'd go for the fastest recon ever made. No weapons, no shields down, just warp control and sensor feed.
Then devise a plan, which could eventually incorporate the revealed presence of Klingon ships that might have decloaked.

[Who is like God arbour]

It seems, that some of SDNs denizens have a curios interpretation of the term cheating.

The think, that what Kirk has done in the movie was cheating, but that it wouldon't have been cheating, if Kirk would have studied the programme itself rather than the set conditions of the test; figuring out where it would glitch and how to exploit it.

here's a thought; what if the sim failed literally because kirk just refused to do anything, this locking the AI up, being programmed in such a way that it expected a reaction to it's initial volley, and when nothing happened, it just timed out. Essentially Kirk's trick would be to catch the sim as it shuts down, but before it shuts completely off.

Not that he should be graded either way, but it does fit with the other depiction, where his audacious attitude won him the sim.

Now, I know I've no proof for that, but that was the idea I had while watching the film.

That would actually have been a clever twist —Kirk beats the sim by studying the programme itself rather than the set conditions of the test; figuring out where it would glitch and how to exploit it. At the hearing, he could have used that to further outline how the test itself is wholly unrealistic (as well as clear himself of the charge of cheating).

It would have been more interesting overall if Kirk had beaten Spock with logic rather than cheating and emotional provocation. Spock might not have liked being outwitted, but then he would have had reason to respect James Kirk early on, even if grudgingly, and thus a more solid basis for their friendship would be established. There could even have been a postscript scene in which the two sit down for their first game of chess —fade to the exterior of the ship as we hear Leonard Nimoy's recital of the opening monologue just before the Enterprise goes to warp and off to the unknown.

Of course, that works only if the writers choose not to make James T. Kirk an asshole punk for half the movie.

This would have been great! It would also have fit, being a way he could cheat and satisfy the setup for TWoK, but still be something unique, and get him a commendation. Cheating on a test is not "original thinking."

On the other hand, noticing that the test has certain characteristics and exploiting them could certainly be argued either way. If he was sufficiently eloquent, and avoided certain cliches, you could fulfill all the requirements.

This also doesn't require the punk kid to be able to hack into what should be a very secure computer system.

What are your thoughts?

Has Kirk cheated - even if it may have been justified? Was his cheating to beat the test justified?

Would it not have been a cheat, if Kirk secretly would have gotten access to informations about the test he weren't supposed to have and would have beaten the test by exploiting a bug he weren't supposed to know?

[Who is like God arbour]

Well, WILGA, I believe Saavik had it right:
The very purpose of the Federation is to protect innocent people's lives.
If, from the get go, we don't know there are Klingons, we can't prove it's a trap and there's a very good chance we may be risking the lives of 300 innocent persons, then I would go in, broadcast our rescue mission, and do everything I could to protect the lives of my crew and my ship...

That is, if the Federation ever considered a coward and a sissy like me command worthy... :)

I agree.

The purpose of Starfleet is to save innocent people. Let the diplomats sort out the rest. And that the trespassing of the Neutral Zone would have caused a war, is improbably.
I simply quote Uraniun235 because he has already nicely summarized my thoughts on that point.

• It's not like violating the Neutral Zone has ever plunged the Federation into war. I mean, shit, Picard charged in at warp speed twice in one season over what basically amounted to rumors, and we never heard shit from the Romulans afterward. The Romulans came screaming across the border a couple of times and the Federation was apparently satisfied with Picard's stern words to "not do that shit again because seriously that is not cool".
  
  Back in TOS, the Romulans came over and plowed a few outposts in Federation space, and lost the ship that did it, and that was that. After that, there was the time that a Commodore thought a shortcut across Romulan space was a great idea. Then later, Kirk fucking barrels into Romulan territory, transparently blames it on navigational error, steals their cloaking device and manages to run back to Federation space - if "violating the Neutral Zone" was the grave cassus belli that it's regarded as, there should have been a whole second war over that mission.
  
  Granted, these actions all chronologically take place way later than Kirk's taking of the test, but in general it seems like compared to the other crazy shit that the Enterprise has gotten into with the Neutral Zone, hopping in to save a crippled ship is probably the least severe offense. Maybe the Klingons are bigger sticklers about that shit, but I don't know if we've ever seen anything to suggest as such.

Indeed, the violation of the Neutral Zone, even the violation of sovereign territory is - according to the modern international law - not an attack and does not justify a war.

[Who is like God arbour]

The idea of asking a student how they would ask someone to go into hungry shark infested waters is intended to be sadistic. To see the one asked squirm at trying to answer and then trying to trick them. In that situation, if a third one was there who could only watch and speak to the other two, they wouldn't say anything when the topic is brought up. In most situations like that, it is not debated, it's just done.

Plus, not all sharks are gonna chow down on a person really, even when they're starving. Not all sharks eat the same thing and just because they're hungry doesn't mean they're all gonna wanna bite. The idea 'they're really really hungry' does fly. Some sharks might take on a person, but not all. It'd have been better and more accurate to say hungry piranah. Saying hungry sharks is a play on their own stupidity or someone elses, if they think sharks would regularly eat people.

You know that this is beside the point. Kirk has used that scenario only to illustrate the problem.
And Saavik has made an elegant defense of her opinion. Regardless how Kirk would have described the scenario, she would have effectively turned turtle the problem with her response.

[Who is like God arbour]

And the questions remains how he could reach the Klingons if they would have jammend all the frequencies.

That presupposes that Peter Kirk took his ship in to attempt the rescue before attempting to contact the Klingons and proposing to challenge their leader's honor. Saavik went charging right in in violation of he treat boundaries and did not attempt to communicate at all beforehand.
-Mike

In the simulation, Peter Kirk is supposed to know only what the simulation says. That means that he can't know that there are Klingons until they decloack and attack. He could only presume that there a Klingons and that this is a trap.

But if there would be Klingons, waiting for a Starfleet ship which would attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru, why would they response to a call from it?

And you have also to consider, that there were disturbances and strange static noises. The Kobayashi Maru were only very difficult to understand. That's not really good enough to challenge an impatient Klingon commander to a duel.

[Who is like God arbour]

One of the problems you are ignoring is the fact that it was reported that the Kobayashi Maru has run on a gravitic mine. Usually where one is are more and they would be constructed to be difficult to detect because otherwise they would be nearly useless because one could easily circumvent them if they are easy to be seen.

That means that you can't fly with maximum speed to the position where you are assuming the Kobayashi Maru and you can't simply go to warp if there are suddenly a few combative Klingons.

I would assume that this was the reason why Saavik is not simply gone to warp at the first sign of problems in her test.

Please consider that problem in your strategy and tactic.

And be ready to defend your decision to enter the Neutral Zone and risk a war to your training supervising officer. Why is it the correct decision to enter the Neutral Zone to save maybe tree hundret beings if you risk with that action a war in which billions could die?

The mines is one of the reasons why I got so much power to the shields.

Such a minefield would be useless if a ship needs only to reroute all power to its shield and fly through it with maximum warp. Even if it would not be an unbeatable test, I would say that this can not work.

And do you really think that they program an unbeatable test and let that happen?

[Who is like God arbour]

What about dropping out of warp, having sensors ready to pick up all necessary data about the Maru, buzz off within the second?
With this data, one could know how to fire a certain amount of torpedoes all at once, to damage the cloaked ships.

Obviously in times of war with Klingons, Starfleet Commanders should get a clue. Rules would need to change, although a trigger happy stance is obviously only fueling an escalation of war.

That's why I'd go for the fastest recon ever made. No weapons, no shields down, just warp control and sensor feed.
Then devise a plan, which could eventually incorporate the revealed presence of Klingon ships that might have decloaked.

Don't forget the gravitic mines. Warp in and out is not an option if there is indeed a minefield.

[GStone]

Has Kirk cheated - even if it may have been justified? Was his cheating to beat the test justified?

It's already a given that this is not totally real, that's why it's a simulation. The point is to act like it was real, not act like you are in a simulation. This is not cheating, this is refusing to participate and claim that you really did. He gets an incomplete, loosing that entire percentage of his overall grade for whatever segment of his schooling it is for.

Such a minefield would be useless if a ship needs only to reroute all power to its shield and fly through it with maximum warp. Even if it would not be an unbeatable test, I would say that this can not work.

They are hidden mines, so their yield is probably designed for ships without their shields up.

And do you really think that they program an unbeatable test and let that happen?

The mines aren't causing total destruction of a small ship. I doubt they're being set to completely wipe out in one blow your standard starfleet vessel with shields backed up by all available power.

[Who is like God arbour]

Such a minefield would be useless if a ship needs only to reroute all power to its shield and fly through it with maximum warp. Even if it would not be an unbeatable test, I would say that this can not work.

They are hidden mines, so their yield is probably designed for ships without their shields up.

And do you really think that they program an unbeatable test and let that happen?

The mines aren't causing total destruction of a small ship. I doubt they're being set to completely wipe out in one blow your standard starfleet vessel with shields backed up by all available power.

You don't really believe that the programmer of such a simulation would allow, that you trigger only one mine if at all. If you would fly with maximum warp to the Kobayashi Maru, you can bet that you would trigger enough mines to destroy or at least disable your ship - and that wouldn't be unrealistic.

As I have said already: Such a minefield would be useless if a ship needs only to reroute all power to its shield and fly through it with maximum warp - à la Galaxy Quest. Yes, one or two or three mines may not be strong enough to disable a ship with raised shields. But if that would be the case, it would be compensated with a higher mine density to ensure that the minefield could fulfil its purpose. And if there is a Klingon minefield in the Neutral Zone, a possibility you have to consider after it was reported that the Kobayashi Maru has triggered a mine, the probably that its purpose is to prevent that starfleet ships trespass the Neutral Zone is very high.

[GStone]

You don't really believe that the programmer of such a simulation would allow, that you trigger only one mine if at all.

You might hit more than one mine, but it isn't a requirement.

If you would fly with maximum warp to the Kobayashi Maru, you can bet that you would trigger enough mines to destroy or at least disable your ship - and that wouldn't be unrealistic.

And if the point of the mines is to attract attention to try to start something, you don't want to totally obliterate the ships.

As I have said already: Such a minefield would be useless if a ship needs only to reroute all power to its shield and fly through it with maximum warp - à la Galaxy Quest.

At the very least, I'm in a scout/patrolship. The Maru is a civilian carrier. My ship's gonna have more power and also stronger shields and probably a stronger hull, too.

Yes, one or two or three mines may not be strong enough to disable a ship with raised shields. But if that would be the case, it would be compensated with a higher mine density to ensure that the minefield could fulfil its purpose.

Too high a concentration and you risk loosing the objective, which is to have some viability of a rescue to draw another ship in.

And if there is a Klingon minefield in the Neutral Zone, a possibility you have to consider after it was reported that the Kobayashi Maru has triggered a mine, the probably that its purpose is to prevent that starfleet ships trespass the Neutral Zone is very high.

Well, they should only be mining their boarder of the neutral zone and shouldn't be mining within it. They shouldn't be in the neutral zone, lying in wait cloaked in there. It's not their territory. Mining the zone would probably get the klingon ambassador ejected from federation space, if it's not treated as an act of war.

[Mike DiCenso]

In the simulation, Peter Kirk is supposed to know only what the simulation says. That means that he can't know that there are Klingons until they decloack and attack. He could only presume that there a Klingons and that this is a trap

.

I recommend reading the book "Sarek" in order to get your answers. Besides which, Peter would know that his ship is patrolling along the Klingon, as opposed to the Romulan Neutral Zone.

But if there would be Klingons, waiting for a Starfleet ship which would attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru, why would they response to a call from it?

Because Peter has the balls to call out the Klingon commander's honor, that's why. Spoilers here:

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The idea of anyone doing that in the test hadn't been properly planned for, but afterwords, the test is modified to accomodate it. Also, it's not like Peter gets off scott-free, either. The test ends with him going to beam over to his certain (in the sim) death. So yes, the Kobyashi Maru's crew is saved and Peter's ship and crew get away, but he does not.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

He gets an incomplete, loosing that entire percentage of his overall grade for whatever segment of his schooling it is for.

Actually, Kirk had already completed the test twice, so he couldn't get an incomplete.
He probably re-took it because he didn't like to lose, and didn't believe in a "no-win" situation...