Where is the proof that SWverse people abhor Teleportation?

[Mike DiCenso]

Erm, are we turning this into Trek vs Gate or what?

Scissors?

Good question. I think this needs to be brought back onto the original topic. Whatever the tech, and whomever it's from, there's little to no reason why the Galactic Republic, much less the Empire would pass up transporter technologies for at least the fast movement of droids and non-living bulk goods. Therefore there is no reason for anyone in the SW universe not to develop.

Are we all agreed on this conclusion?

It's an unknown.

The Voth Cityship is huge, there's no denying on this, and logically, as all things go, the power production of a ship that size is simply ought to be enormous.
The building itself was actually worth 22 stories high.

Now, using the ESB, 381 m, 102 levels, 340,000 tons.
Using averages and remembering the naqahdah lacing being part of the building's makeup, we get 73,333 tons for 22 levels.
That makes Voyager 9.5 times heavier than this building.

Not necessarily, the power source for the Prometheus is someone else's technology, correct? So as impressive as that is for the circumstances, it is no less impressive than the Defiant being as powerful as it is since it has an over-sized/over-powered warp core for a ship it's size.

Of course, considering the position of the camera, I may be missing a few couple floors closer to the ground.

Any other screencaps? Video? What did the building look like when floating in space? Was all of it beamed into orbit?

The Voth themselves are advanced because their species is millions of years old, and dispite their doctrine, they advanced technologically to a comparable point with SG elder powers like the Asgard or the Ancients.

The Asgards, 30,000 K years ago, still had very limited means of stellar transportation though.

What do you mean? FTL-wise?

But the Voth have quite a few technological prowess that many of the SG races would love to get their hands on. Personal phase cloaking shields, for instance, as well as phase cloak tech for both small as well as large vessels. The Voth also have some fairly impressive scaning ability; able to read individual lifeforms at 90 light-years distance!

The Nox, who concealed part of their technology behind a natural way of life, were capable of phasing stuff out of people's hands, or phase people in and out, and cloak a flying creature and their entire floating city.
The Tollans had personal phasing tech, and they were considered to be what we'd be if we had not gone through the Dark Ages.
Goa'uld have developed personal cloaks, can cloak Al'keshes and Tel'taks, and Sokar got the tech ready for regular Ha'taks.
Some transport rings are seen phasing through matter.
The Alterans/Lantians have developed a vast range of cloaking and/or phasing devices. They can cloak crafts from puddle jumpers to cruisers or even Atlantis.
The Sodan (a group of Jaffa who were freed a long time ago and decided to follow the path of the Ancients) used personal cloaks which were speculated to be of Alteran design.
Finally, we've seen an Alteran device of the size of a keyboard being able to phase AND cloak anything from a small house, or a village, to the whole Earth, depending on the provided power (the former case being achieved by powering the device with the mere power crystal from an Ori weapon staff, the things grunts use to fire blue bolts, different from a Prior staff).

Personal cloaks are also used by the Dominon Jem'Hadar, but they are not phase cloaks just as some of the other species you've mentioned are not.

To make the point: there is no way to know here which of the two is using more power than the other, regardless of ship size as there is little to compare one to the other. What we do know is that a very large Voth ship was able effortlessly to beam Voyager inside itself, and dispite the Federation ship having it's shields up at the time.

Either they knew how to get around the shields, or had enough power to pierce the anti-transportation ability of shields.

Either way it is quite impressive, regardless.

Speaking of distance, the record for teleport-style transport probably goes to the Dominion, with a range of at least 3 light-years, provided there is a homing beacon.

I remember someone already citing this a while back. Are we sure of the range?
Did we ever see what device they used to do so though?

SISKO
Their transporters operate over
longer distances than ours --
what's their maximum range?

WORF
If a homing transponder is in
place, up to three light years.

O'BRIEN
There was a homing transponder,
all right.

This is not getting into the higher technology of Gary Seven's sponsors who beamed him to Earth from some distance of at least 1,000 light years away. ( TOS: "Assignment: Earth").

There is also an issue of how many transports we've seen in the SG franchise and how many we have seen in the ST one, and of those, how many transports wound up resulting in a serious accident, fatal or otherwise, and under what circumstances. In ST, the impression is given of thousands of routine transports on any one individual station or starship alone within any given time. Of that, there do not appear to be very many accidents, and of that at least a few of them have been faked or are the result of sabotage.
-Mike

Be it with two, one or zero pod, there has been no accident in Stargate at all.
Oh, one actually. There's been a mind swap between McKay and a woman when being extracted out of a Wraith beaming device, after its proprietary Dart crashed, obviously not working properly anymore.
Unless you don't attempt to sabotage or break them, those devices are actually very reliable, each one capable of holding 1000 people, and with a bit of tweak from lower tech people, could go on for centuries that way without any degradation.

Out of how many transports using the transporter-to-wherever method? A 1 in 100 failure rate is still pretty awful statistically speaking where as we are comparing a few dozen or so failures out of thousands for blog-standard Trek transporters.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I remember someone already citing this a while back. Are we sure of the range?
Did we ever see what device they used to do so though?

I do not recall that device personally but since we are talking long range transports we need to look no further than the Stargate devices themselves...

Those don't count since we're talking about matter-energy transport via at least some level of de-materialization. But the Iconians and Sikarians have the Stargates beat. The Iconians have gate technology that does not require a gate-to-gate method and you can walk through the gate as though through an open door. The Sikarians folding space transporters are limited to within 40,000 light-years (nothing could technically stop them from building additional transporters at the limits of the previous machine's range...), but the Iconians could go just about anywhere in the galaxy.

Be it with two, one or zero pod, there has been no accident in Stargate at all.
Oh, one actually. There's been a mind swap between McKay and a woman when being extracted out of a Wraith beaming device, after its proprietary Dart crashed, obviously not working properly anymore.
Unless you don't attempt to sabotage or break them, those devices are actually very reliable, each one capable of holding 1000 people, and with a bit of tweak from lower tech people, could go on for centuries that way without any degradation.

And they are forgetting that in Atlantis transporters are used regularly to move around the city and that the Stargate itself is basically a long range teleportation device also used on a constant basis basically.

In Voyager's "Prophecy", 225 klingons are beamed off simultaneously from a self-destructing battlecruiser. As for regular, moving about, the TNG-era has mention of routine transporter use, even by civilians on a regular basis, and little, if anything is mentioned about accidents.
-Mike

[ILikeDeathNote]

Erm, are we turning this into Trek vs Gate or what?

Scissors?

Well, according to the OP and the thread title, the debate is whether or not SW people would abhor molecular teleportation.


The answer: wait until Karen Traviss or The Clone Wars tackles the issue, then set up the flame shields for the people who will complain that Karen Traviss and The Clone Wars totally got it wrong :p



...and I'm almost willing to bet real money that Karen Traviss or The Clone Wars will tackle this issue.

[PunkMaister]

Good question. I think this needs to be brought back onto the original topic. Whatever the tech, and whomever it's from, there's little to no reason why the Galactic Republic, much less the Empire would pass up transporter technologies for at least the fast movement of droids and non-living bulk goods. Therefore there is no reason for anyone in the SW universe not to develop.

Are we all agreed on this conclusion?

I think even the most rabid warsie could not possibly disagree with that assessment at this point.

Not necessarily, the power source for the Prometheus is someone else's technology, correct? So as impressive as that is for the circumstances, it is no less impressive than the Defiant being as powerful as it is since it has an over-sized/over-powered warp core for a ship it's size.

Someone's else's power source err no actually, the Prometheus used Earth built Naqadah reactors for power. Since we are talking about Transporters I fail to see the relevance of the Defiant on this topic, altough it does happen to be my favorite ST ship as unlike the other UFP ones is totally badass and with only one thing designed for! To kick royal butt! :D

What do you mean? FTL-wise?

Yes that is exactly what he was referring too...

Personal cloaks are also used by the Dominon Jem'Hadar, but they are not phase cloaks just as some of the other species you've mentioned are not.

Funny I do not recall the Jem-Haddar using personal cloakin tech at least not on a regular basis and especially not when they were fighting.

To make the point: there is no way to know here which of the two is using more power than the other, regardless of ship size as there is little to compare one to the other. What we do know is that a very large Voth ship was able effortlessly to beam Voyager inside itself, and dispite the Federation ship having it's shields up at the time.

Umm... No the larger a ship the bigger by default it's power requirements are that is standard on just about every Scifi universe there is as it very much applies to the real world physics.

Either way it is quite impressive, regardless.

Yes but considering the relative sizes and power requirements the Prommie's feat looks far more impressive, is not the same to see a Giant Anaconda swallow a deer whole than seeing a garden snake eat an Earth Worm just about it's size...

Speaking of distance, the record for teleport-style transport probably goes to the Dominion, with a range of at least 3 light-years, provided there is a homing beacon.
SISKO
Their transporters operate over
longer distances than ours --
what's their maximum range?

WORF
If a homing transponder is in
place, up to three light years.

O'BRIEN
There was a homing transponder,
all right.

This is not getting into the higher technology of Gary Seven's sponsors who beamed him to Earth from some distance of at least 1,000 light years away. ( TOS: "Assignment: Earth").

Hello! Stargate = Long range teleportation system/network

Out of how many transports using the transporter-to-wherever method? A 1 in 100 failure rate is still pretty awful statistically speaking where as we are comparing a few dozen or so failures out of thousands for blog-standard Trek transporters.
-Mike

The Wraith transports can only beam people materials to a Wraith Darth and out of it and they are designed more to contain prey (humans) in storage to take back to the hive ships to be processed and consumed as if they were Tuna! No pun intended. But it is not a point to point transport system. In fact is not even a telepod to telepod transport system. It cannot possibly be counted as such or any "accidents" involving it.

Again In Atlantis transporters are used frequently and routinely by the people there to move about and around in the city. No accidents to report. Asgard transports are used each time Earth ships arrive to disembark people, materials again no accidents to report. The Goa'uld and others use ring transports regularly again no accidents to report need I go on...

[Praeothmin]

I think even the most rabid warsie could not possibly disagree with that assessment at this point.

You haven't been dealing with them for long now, have you... :)

Yes that is exactly what he was referring too...

Ok, what proof is there about that?
What do you know of the Voth FTL drive?
We have no mention of their FTL capability, so you cannot say it's inferior, simply because we don't know what it's like.
We know what it was like a few million years ago, but not in Voyager's timeline...

Funny I do not recall the Jem-Haddar using personal cloakin tech at least not on a regular basis and especially not when they were fighting.

We've seen them more in the beginning, but all through the series we've seen them periodically.
They usually decloak just before attacking, which may mean they need to concentrate to be able to cloak.

as it very much applies to the real world physics.

This is where your argument falls apart... Real world physics?
We're talking about FTL travel, Teleportation, energy weapons with power packs smaller then a D battery...
I don't think real-wolrd physics has anything to do with Science Fiction... :)

Hello! Stargate = Long range teleportation system/network

Actually, the Stargate acts more like a transwarp conduit then anything else...
A small one, yes, but a conduit nonetheless...

[PunkMaister]

You haven't been dealing with them for long now, have you... :)

Admitedly not since I got booted from SDN but since SDN is basically a cult they do not even count anymore in my book.

Ok, what proof is there about that?
What do you know of the Voth FTL drive?
We have no mention of their FTL capability, so you cannot say it's inferior, simply because we don't know what it's like.
We know what it was like a few million years ago, but not in Voyager's timeline...

There is no evidence to suggest their FTL has improved from a few million years ago so going by that Asgard FTL is clearly superior.

We've seen them more in the beginning, but all through the series we've seen them periodically.
They usually decloak just before attacking, which may mean they need to concentrate to be able to cloak.

I got to re-watch DS9 because asd much as I recall the Jem-Haddar and their addiction to Tetracil-White and thier ever present and annoying Vorta overseers, I do not recall their cloaking abilities...

This is where your argument falls apart... Real world physics?
We're talking about FTL travel, Teleportation, energy weapons with power packs smaller then a D battery...
I don't think real-wolrd physics has anything to do with Science Fiction... :)

All of it based more on less on Theoretical physics...

Actually, the Stargate acts more like a transwarp conduit then anything else...
A small one, yes, but a conduit nonetheless...

Umm... No actually take a look:

Much of the inspiration for the functioning of the device is drawn heavily from theoretical astrophysics, particularly that of black holes and wormholes, a staple of science fiction, often used to create "shortcuts" through space. Although these may exist in reality, it is not widely held to be true that any such phenomenon could safely transport a human being,[6] as such wormholes would most likely be created by excessive gravity (e.g. from a black hole) which would destroy any potential traveler.[7] In Stargate however, this is circumverted by transporting a traveller through as an energy signature, and reintegrating him at the other end.

taken from Wikipedia
And there has been quite a few instances in the show both thru dialogue and action in the show. There was even one instance in the first seasons where Teal'c failied to materialize and they had to seek the help of a Goa'uld to retrieve him from the Stargate's buffer before it was destroyed by another Stargate incoming worhole transmission. So yes people that go thru a sending Stargate are in fact demolecularized sent as an energy stream thru the wormhole and then reconstituted at the receiving Stargate that is how it works. So yes it is a long range teleportation device.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Good question. I think this needs to be brought back onto the original topic. Whatever the tech, and whomever it's from, there's little to no reason why the Galactic Republic, much less the Empire would pass up transporter technologies for at least the fast movement of droids and non-living bulk goods. Therefore there is no reason for anyone in the SW universe not to develop.

Are we all agreed on this conclusion?

I don't think there's much to say than... they didn't dig that part of physics much. :)

Not necessarily, the power source for the Prometheus is someone else's technology, correct?

It a good ol' naqahdah reactor core. You can call that someone else's tech since the Tau'ri have borrowed a lot, but it's certainly not the best power source out there.

So as impressive as that is for the circumstances, it is no less impressive than the Defiant being as powerful as it is since it has an over-sized/over-powered warp core for a ship it's size.

We're talking about the Voth cityship here, right?
That ship is supermassive. You could probably cram thousands of Voyagers in that thing.

Any other screencaps? Video? What did the building look like when floating in space? Was all of it beamed into orbit?

Yeah, all got beamed. I can't get any other screencaps, safe one showing it in space at a good distance.
Simply put, in the episode, all the structure you see in that cap is beamed.

What do you mean? FTL-wise?

That and probably other techs.

Out of how many transports using the transporter-to-wherever method? A 1 in 100 failure rate is still pretty awful statistically speaking where as we are comparing a few dozen or so failures out of thousands for blog-standard Trek transporters.
-Mike

Wait, I said the Dart crashed. The whole craft was in pieces, it's a miracle the small/i] device could be salvaged. When they're not shredded, Darts' beaming functions perfectly. We've never seen a malfunction from a beam-culling.

As for stargates, I suppose you could say they're both teleporation and wormhole based. They turn people into energized matter or energy (it's never been clarified).

Teal'c got stuck in a stargate because the DHD on the departure side got crushed by a falling Al'kesh. But such DHDs are not always used though.
That's not to count that the Tau'ri has repeatedly been deactivating or ignoring some safety protocols encoded in the stargates.

Stargates themselves are rather sturdy things.
We've seen connected stargates withstand:

- A direct meteor impact.
- A hiveship entirely vapourized at point blank range (an event which requires maaany gigatons of energy to achieve).
- The fires of a main sequence G class star, slightly more active than our sun, for two dozen minutes. Inside the photosphere, slammed at 5% of lightspeed, only protected by a mere Goa'uld shield and having to deal with the time tides of a black hole on the other end that would suck so much matter that the sun would go nova.
- The destruction of a planet hypothetized to having been turned into a giant (burning) plasma ball.
- A near teraton gatebuster unless said device is put directly behind the stargate. Of course, such a device releases its energy within nanoseconds, which makes the power figure betwen seven and eight orders of magnitude superior to the energy figure.

In all cases, the stargates remained perfectly functional. Let's also point to Beachhead and the glowing stargate still working and letting Ori ships fly through it without problem.

[Praeothmin]

There is no evidence to suggest their FTL has improved from a few million years ago so going by that Asgard FTL is clearly superior.

Clearly superior to what?
We know the Voth city-ship is transwarp capable.
We don't know how fast it can go, so I can you even compare the two???

[PunkMaister]

There is no evidence to suggest their FTL has improved from a few million years ago so going by that Asgard FTL is clearly superior.

Clearly superior to what?
We know the Voth city-ship is transwarp capable.
We don't know how fast it can go, so I can you even compare the two???

Unless you can provide evidence that Trasnwarp allows intergalactic travel in hours or less Asgard FTL is clearly the superior one....

[Praeothmin]

Unless you can provide evidence that Trasnwarp allows intergalactic travel in hours or less Asgard FTL is clearly the superior one....

You really have no clue about the "Burden of Proof", do you?
Since you're the first who brought up the point that Asgard FTL is superior, you should prove it with facts and numbers.

So, unless you can provide evidence that Voth Transwarp drive cannot allow intergalactic travel in hours or less, then Asgard FTL is clearly the inferior one...

See how easy it is to sate things without a shred of evidence backing it up?

[PunkMaister]

Unless you can provide evidence that Trasnwarp allows intergalactic travel in hours or less Asgard FTL is clearly the superior one....

You really have no clue about the "Burden of Proof", do you?
Since you're the first who brought up the point that Asgard FTL is superior, you should prove it with facts and numbers.

So, unless you can provide evidence that Voth Transwarp drive cannot allow intergalactic travel in hours or less, then Asgard FTL is clearly the inferior one...

See how easy it is to sate things without a shred of evidence backing it up?

Well we do know that Asgard Hyperdrive does allow to travel in that timely fashion across galaxies and it has been observed time and time again in the show. The same cannot be said of Voth FTL other than is transwarp. For that matter we have not even seen the Borg go out of the Milky Way in search of other galaxies to conquer so it is safe to say that for the most part Intergalactic travel remains quite rare in Trek.

[Mike DiCenso]

In "Distant Origin", Gegen and Veers, two Voth scientists, in a small research vessel that was transwarp capable, are looking for the starship Voyager. When the two spot Voyager after spending days or a few weeks scouring the sector looking for it, they are travelling at transwarp and 90 light-years away. Gegen has to take his ship out of transwarp within 30 seconds of the initial sighting to prevent passing up the Federation starship.

To be conservative, we will assume that it took a full minute for the Voth ship to catch up with Voyager. There are 47,303,000 light-minutes in 90 light-years. So the little Voth ship was capable of at least 47 million times the speed of light! Since the Milky Way galaxy is approximately 100,000 light-years wide (52,560,000,000 light minutes) so the Voth ship's speed divided by the number of light minutes = 1,111 minutes to travel across the entire width of our galaxy. Divide that by 60 = 18.52 hours to traverse that distance, or well under one full day.

Now that was being conservative, if it took at most 30 seconds, then halve the previous value and you have 18.52/2 = 9.26 hours. So hours or less to traverse the Milky Way end-to-end is clearly within the Voth capability.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Well we do know that Asgard Hyperdrive does allow to travel in that timely fashion across galaxies and it has been observed time and time again in the show. The same cannot be said of Voth FTL other than is transwarp. For that matter we have not even seen the Borg go out of the Milky Way in search of other galaxies to conquer so it is safe to say that for the most part Intergalactic travel remains quite rare in Trek.

The Galactic barrier in the Star Trek universe generally makes extra-galactic travel a potentially hazardous undertaking.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

In all cases, the stargates remained perfectly functional. Let's also point to Beachhead and the glowing stargate still working and letting Ori ships fly through it without problem.

Stargates I do not consider teleportation in the sense we are talking about since it clearly involves transport via wormhole and not by dematerialzing an object or person and reassembling them at the other location. So no redefining an orange into a pomegrante, please. However the Asgard do possess similar transporter technology to the Federation's transporters. So what accidents have they had and in how many transports?
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

In all cases, the stargates remained perfectly functional. Let's also point to Beachhead and the glowing stargate still working and letting Ori ships fly through it without problem.

Stargates I do not consider teleportation in the sense we are talking about since it clearly involves transport via wormhole and not by dematerialzing an object or person and reassembling them at the other location. So no redefining an orange into a pomegrante, please. However the Asgard do possess similar transporter technology to the Federation's transporters. So what accidents have they had and in how many transports?
-Mike

You don't get it? Do you? Even though evidence has been brought clearly showing the fact that people are indeed demolecurazided or in other words dematerialized and sent from point A to Point B to be rematerialized at the receiving Stargate you still deny is teleportation! Darn you are dense!

The Galactic barrier in the Star Trek universe generally makes extra-galactic travel a potentially hazardous undertaking.
-Mike

Wow so Star Trek has a galactic barrier of sorts that prevents them from going off the galaxy just like they do in SW! Interesting, I wonder what were both ST and SW writers thinking when they cooked that limitation up and more importantly why?