Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[StarWarsStarTrek]

That is assuming it doesn't use something like inertialess drive and/or SIF.

A rather safe assumption, given that neither exist, and neither would address all of the difficulties in building very large structures, such as, you know, a Death Star.

EDIT: I am saying that both mass and volume are inaccurate measures of industrial capacity. If US was to build 2000 F22s, it would have completely annihilated its economy in doing so, due to the 500 billion USD being added on top of the already existing 1 trillion USD budget it is barely supporting as it is. 2000 f15s in 1970s configuration, on the other hand, would have cost 100 billion USD, and 2000 F16s in 1970 configuration would have cost 62,6 billion USD.

Except that your analogy is completely meaningless, because F22s are significantly more sophisticated hardware and software than any of the earlier fighters mentioned. The Death Star, however, is far more sophisticated than any imperial star destroyer, and so your analogy is actually completely reversed!

Another nice detail about F22s flyaway cost of 250 million USD is that full half of it goes on its stealth coating.

Empire uses fusion powerplants. Federation uses antimatter powerplants. Which ones would you think are more difficult to build?

Given that the Empire’s fusion powerplants magically explode upon being hit, with enough energy to mass scatter a moon sized battle station, I’d say the former.

Add to that the fact that warp nacelles (hyperdrives for Star Wars factions) are also likely to be disproportionately costly,

This actually goes against you. Hyperdrive is faster than warp, and it is also cheaper?

and that personnell costs are ALWAYS one of highest costs incurred by any military,

This doesn’t apply here in the slightest. First, going by your own canon policy, the Death Star fields a crew surpassing the entire Federation Starfleet in size by an enormous margin. Second, you can’t be serious in thinking that the crew of the Death Star cost more than the resources needed in building a moon sized starship.

and you can see why Empire almost certainly cannot build equivalent weight in starships to Death Star. Actually, I think that Death Stars were a cost-saving measure.

You haven’t proved “almost certainly” anything. In fact, you present a hilariously reversed analogy that proves the exact opposite of your thesis!

[Praeothmin]

Hyperdrive is faster than warp, and it is also cheaper?

Prove it, for once... :)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Hyperdrive is faster than warp, and it is also cheaper?

Prove it, for once... :)

You mean for dozen?

I've already provided you with the Maul example. I've already provided you with the Endor example. But I'll repeat them, once again, for your benefit, completely ignoring your hypocrisy in doing exactly what you scorn me for: ignoring shit.

---Darth Maul leaves for Tatooine.
---Anakin invites Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan inside after a sandstorm. During lunch, to put it briefly, Anakin is going to participate in the podrace the next morning.
---At, if I recall, dusk, Darth Maul has already landed on Tatooine and is dispatching probe droids to hunt down the jedi.
---The podrace begins.

Distance: Halfway across the galaxy, according to Padme. Either 60,000 LY or 10,000 LY.

Time: Within half a day. Eight hours, to estimate.

Speed: 11 million to 66 million C.

"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."

---Luke surrenders himself on Endor.
---The Rebel fleet, hanging “hundreds of light years” away from Endor, jumps.
---Luke is taken forth to the Emperor.

Distance: Hundreds of light years. For example, only 200.

Time: It takes seconds to reach orbit (AotC, Dooku’s sailboat). Vader is the antithesis of one to waste time; let us indulge ourselves in thinking that it takes half an hour for the dark lord of the sith to bring Skywalker to Darth Sidious.

Speed: at least 3.5 million C.






Star Wars IV: A New Hope, pg. 118 softcover: "Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."

Distance: Alderaan resides in the galactic core; Tatooine is in the outer rim. An estimate of 5,000 or 30,000 light years, if Alderaan happens to be in the same side of the galaxy as Tatooine.

Time: Less than 24 hours. Once again, we will assume the highest possible time.

Speed: At least 10 million C.

A secondary canon example:

"From the labored sound of the engines, [Mara Jade] could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour."

Indicating speeds of 1.2 million C.

[Praeothmin]

So, you ignored the highlighted part to concentrate on the non-highlighted one, plus you came up with very disputable numbers?

First, PROVE HYPERDRIVE IS PROPORTIONATELY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN WARP DRIVE!
And don't forget even small civilian shuttles have them, before you try to use the bullshit excuse that "all civilian ships in SW have them"...

Second, we've had the speed argument conversation before, and even then you used very disputable numbers (when you did use them)...

[Picard]

A rather safe assumption, given that neither exist, and neither would address all of the difficulties in building very large structures, such as, you know, a Death Star.

Proof? All I see is that Star Wars durasteel has heat capacity similar to modern steel.

Except that your analogy is completely meaningless, because F22s are significantly more sophisticated hardware and software than any of the earlier fighters mentioned. The Death Star, however, is far more sophisticated than any imperial star destroyer, and so your analogy is actually completely reversed!

Except Death Star is, aside for superlaser, only amalgman of older technologies. And it actually reduces personnel costs.

Given that the Empire’s fusion powerplants magically explode upon being hit, with enough energy to mass scatter a moon sized battle station, I’d say the former.

"Moon sized" can go from 9 to 9 000 kilometers, so...

This actually goes against you. Hyperdrive is faster than warp, and it is also cheaper?

Where do you get that? I said that BOTH warp warp drive and hyperdrive are going to be extraordinarily costly.

Stop putting words in my... erm, keyboard.

This doesn’t apply here in the slightest. First, going by your own canon policy, the Death Star fields a crew surpassing the entire Federation Starfleet in size by an enormous margin. Second, you can’t be serious in thinking that the crew of the Death Star cost more than the resources needed in building a moon sized starship.

Then why is Death Star so empty?

Besides, Enterprise-E is also "moon-sized", depends on which moon you take... and we don't knwo how long it took to build Death Stars, and yes, personnel costs are ususally disproportionately large.

You haven’t proved “almost certainly” anything. In fact, you present a hilariously reversed analogy that proves the exact opposite of your thesis!

Only because you are unable to comprehend what I am talking about.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

So, you ignored the highlighted part to concentrate on the non-highlighted one, plus you came up with very disputable numbers?

First, PROVE HYPERDRIVE IS PROPORTIONATELY LESS EXPENSIVE THAN WARP DRIVE!
And don't forget even small civilian shuttles have them, before you try to use the bullshit excuse that "all civilian ships in SW have them"...

Second, we've had the speed argument conversation before, and even then you used very disputable numbers (when you did use them)...

Apparently, I had misinterpreted a quote made by Picard. Given that English isn't his first language, I presumed that he made a grammatical error, but it was actually to be taken at face value.

Now, I drop the "cheaper" argument, which was an ad reducto. Feel free to actually rebute the various hyperdrive speed arguments that I just posted for you. Given that half of them haven't ever been presented to you before, don't just link to a previous discussion.

[Nowhereman10]

Hyperdrive is faster than warp, and it is also cheaper?

Prove it, for once... :)

You mean for dozen?

I've already provided you with the Maul example. I've already provided you with the Endor example. But I'll repeat them, once again, for your benefit, completely ignoring your hypocrisy in doing exactly what you scorn me for: ignoring shit.

---Darth Maul leaves for Tatooine.
---Anakin invites Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan inside after a sandstorm. During lunch, to put it briefly, Anakin is going to participate in the podrace the next morning.
---At, if I recall, dusk, Darth Maul has already landed on Tatooine and is dispatching probe droids to hunt down the jedi.
---The podrace begins.

Distance: Halfway across the galaxy, according to Padme. Either 60,000 LY or 10,000 LY.

Time: Within half a day. Eight hours, to estimate.

Speed: 11 million to 66 million C.

"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."

---Luke surrenders himself on Endor.
---The Rebel fleet, hanging “hundreds of light years” away from Endor, jumps.
---Luke is taken forth to the Emperor.

Distance: Hundreds of light years. For example, only 200.

Time: It takes seconds to reach orbit (AotC, Dooku’s sailboat). Vader is the antithesis of one to waste time; let us indulge ourselves in thinking that it takes half an hour for the dark lord of the sith to bring Skywalker to Darth Sidious.

Speed: at least 3.5 million C.[/b


Star Wars IV: A New Hope, pg. 118 softcover: "Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."

Distance: Alderaan resides in the galactic core; Tatooine is in the outer rim. An estimate of 5,000 or 30,000 light years, if Alderaan happens to be in the same side of the galaxy as Tatooine.

Time: Less than 24 hours. Once again, we will assume the highest possible time.

Speed: At least 10 million C.

A secondary canon example:

"From the labored sound of the engines, [Mara Jade] could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour."

Indicating speeds of 1.2 million C.

Been lurking, but I got a good laugh out of SWST's horrible math assumptions here.


On the Coruscant-Tatooine run my Darth Maul's ship

SWST claims 11 million C for a low end, but I only get 7,300,000c, and we generously keep assuming Padame's possible hyperbole of "halfway across the galaxy" were true. How did I get that? Let's start with the 10,000 ly number:

1. 10,000 light years times 365 = 3,650,000 light days divided by one day's time = 3,650,000c. Double that to be extra generous and get 7,300,000c.

2. Now if 60,000 light years, then 60,000 times 365 = 21,900,000/1 = 21,900,000c. Even assuming 12 hours time, we get 43,800,000c. Closer, but still nowhere near 66 million.

All this is with a generous interpretation of 12 hours travel time, which is more than supported by the canon movie. Why is 12 hours generous? First off, if Qui-Gon Jinn and company took refuge at the Skywalker house for lunch (maybe even an early dinner) and the pod race was due to begin the next morning, which judging by the shadows cast around the arena and stands looks closer to high noon. So let's be fair and say they ate dinner at 6 pm local time (the twin suns are still up), then slept overnight there and got up at 6 am sharp to get ready for the pod race which starts around 10 am. That's a total of 12 hours. Minimum.

So we have the following timeline:

Coruscant: Darths Sideous and Maul confer and Maul is sent off to find Amidala on Tatooine.

Tatooine: The next scene immediately after the conversation is dinner at the Skywalkers, somewhere between 12 noon and 6 pm locally. The shadows cast at Watto's junkyard indicate high noon local time. According the to the script, Maul arrives between the Skywalker/Qui-Gon dinner and the next morning. According to the script, this takes place late at night. You can see in the movie here (at 7:30 onwards)just before Anakin takes Qui-Gon and company to his house that the shadows are still fairly short, so not much time has passed since the scene at Watto's junkyard, and later on the Anakin, Padame, Anakin's friends, Artoo, and Jar-Jar have apparently a good number of hours to work on the pod racer after the storm has passed and it's late afternoon, early evening when they finish.

So when does Maul arrive? That's the key kicker here. Night time covers a wide possible range; from dusk to just before dawn. In this video here, we can see it is still clearly daylight and likely early afternoon. So we have several hours minimum until he shows up, and it is a long time as Qui-Gon clearly has lots of time before the kids even get started on the racer to go talk to Watto and make the bet with him, and then talk with Ben and Shimi. As seen in the movie here at 3:00 and it is indeed pitch black night outside, and is long after the work on the speeder is done when Maul arrives on Tatooine. The next scenes take place in the morning in broad daylight. SWST's numbers are highly arbitrary as we can choose between late that same night or very early in the morning before dawn. That's a wide range of possible times. But with absolute certainty, no less than 6-7 hours, and just as likely as much as 16-17 hours (assuming noon Tatooine time when Maul left and he arrived early in the morning around 4-5 am local time. So a rough average would be about 12 hours and it would place Maul's arrival at around midnight local time.

Interestingly enough, the daytime shadows for the pod race are very short as seen in the last clip there, so it is really late in the morning when things get started, and may even be evidence in favor of a timeframe greater than 12 hours for Maul to reach Tatooine.

Time: It takes seconds to reach orbit (AotC, Dooku’s sailboat). Vader is the antithesis of one to waste time; let us indulge ourselves in thinking that it takes half an hour for the dark lord of the sith to bring Skywalker to Darth Sidious.

Bad assumption tossing a one of a small, one of the kind ship's acceleration numbers out there and then assuming that every other craft in Star Wars has the same. Very dishonest. Also for all we know, since Palpatine wanted to time everything with the fleet's arrival, he had Luke cool off in a cell somewhere for a few hours. As it is, the progression of shadows during the course of the day on Endor when the fleet left and the arrival of the commando team at the bunker suggests a longer span of time than a mere 30 minutes. After all, the team initially arrives at the bunker, then C3PO is informed by Wicket that there is a back entry on the other side of the installation, which as seen in the movie is quite large:






So we must assume that the team took additional time to move around the base to the back bunker entrance. The team begins the move just a short while before a cutaway to the fleet preparing and then jumping to hyperspace within minutes. So when they get to the far side of that huge installation, it has to be an hour, maybe several before they get there, and the falling of the shadows from the change in sun angle indicates as much. So realistically... 1-4 hours.

Sullust to Endor: 200 light years times 365 = 73,000. 73,000 times 24 hours = 1,752,000/ 1 hour = 1,752,000c. Assuming it took only an hour to move around that freaking ginourmous shield generator facility. If it took longer, say 3 hours, then we only have 584,000c.

Star Wars IV: A New Hope, pg. 118 softcover: "Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."

Distance: Alderaan resides in the galactic core; Tatooine is in the outer rim. An estimate of 5,000 or 30,000 light years, if Alderaan happens to be in the same side of the galaxy as Tatooine.

Time: Less than 24 hours. Once again, we will assume the highest possible time.

SWST left out additonal information from the ANH novelization:

"You know, even I get boarded sometimes, Jabba. Did you think I dumped
that spice because I got tired of ts smell? I wanted to deliver it as much
as you wanted to receive it. I had no choice." Again the sardonic
smile. "As you say, I'm too valuable to fry. But I've got a charter now and I can pay
you back, plus a little extra. I just need some more time. I can give you a
thousand on account, the rest in three weeks."

Han will be back in 3 weeks. Not 3 days. So it days days to get out there at the very least and the O200 arrival time coming after possibly a week or more in hyperspace.

If 24 hours, then 1,825,000c, not 10 million c, assuming 5,000 ly. If 7 days, then 260,710c. With the 30,000 ly distance he assumes, 1,564,285c is the maximum possible time in a week long travel time to Alderaan from Tatooine.

So SWST's numbers are just arbitrary wishful thinking and cherrypicking.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Sorry for DP.

Proof?

The larger the structure, the greater the internal and external stresses it will undergo, even adjusted for increased loading strength, because strength only increases by a power of two, while stress increases cubically.

All I see is that Star Wars durasteel has heat capacity similar to modern steel.

I already addressed this, last page. Isn’t rebooting arguments in the hope that nobody will notice exactly what you accuse me of doing?

Except Death Star is, aside for superlaser, only amalgman of older technologies. And it actually reduces personnel costs.

Clearly, you think that making an older technology on an enormous scale doesn’t take any progression in engineering in the slightest. It’s not as though building larger structures are fundamentally more difficult, due to exponentially increasing external stresses and the need for highly consistent design specifications, right?

"Moon sized" can go from 9 to 9 000 kilometers, so...

What the fuck are you saying here? You know that the Death Star I isn’t 9 kilometers. It’s 120 or 160 kilometers. This is by your own word; and this is also very, very clearly observable in the films. How does nitpicking the semantics of “moon sized” have anything to do with my point? Did you seriously think that anyone will read this and agree that the Death Star “could” only be 9 kilometers in diameter?

Really, this has got to be the most hilarious tidbit of bullshit I’ve ever read from you, and that’s saying something.

Where do you get that? I said that BOTH warp warp drive and hyperdrive are going to be extraordinarily costly.

Stop putting words in my... erm, keyboard.

If that is what you meant, then I would simply call a red herring, or even point out that your point supports my position; a moon sized battle station is going to require an inconceivably larger hyperdrive, with inconceivable amounts of power.

Then why is Death Star so empty?

Going just by primary canon, as you do, nothing indicates this.

Besides, Enterprise-E is also "moon-sized", depends on which moon you take... and we don't knwo how long it took to build Death Stars, and yes, personnel costs are ususally disproportionately large.

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever seen you make, Picard. Yes, the Enterprise E could be “moon sized” if you nitpick technicalities. But the Death Star is 160 kilometers long. What the fuck does nitpicking not even technicalities from Canon, but rather from my own words accomplish? Jack shit?

Only because you are unable to comprehend what I am talking about.

ROFLAMO. I should definitely sig this.

-Larger, mobile starships are exponentially more difficult to make, the more massive and spacious you make them.
-Constructing old technology on a massive scale is far more difficult than constructing it on a smaller scale.
-Nitpicking someone’s word choice of “moon sized”, in relation to a space station whose size is clearly and indisputable quantified, is pathetic.
-You haven’t provided any calculations or mathematics to substantiate your claim that these various arguments of yours would close the ten billion factor disparity between the Death Star and the entire Federation Starfleet in terms of industrial capacity.

[Picard]

The larger the structure, the greater the internal and external stresses it will undergo, even adjusted for increased loading strength, because strength only increases by a power of two, while stress increases cubically.

Yes I know. But I don't remember seeing classic thrusters on Death Stars, so its propulsion system is most likely similar to Federation impulse drive, meaning that stress may not be nowhere as high as you claim.

Besides, even if we allow for higher mechanical strength, durasteel still has heat capacity of normal steel... which is important, since photon torpedoes melt target.

I already addressed this, last page. Isn’t rebooting arguments in the hope that nobody will notice exactly what you accuse me of doing?

You adressed and failed. To quote:

The Death Star's hull would have to be made from a material 300,000 times stronger than structural steel just to accelerate at 1 km/s^2.

What you fail to fathom is that mechanical strength is NOT indicative of heat capacity. Because, you know, graffite has far lower machanical strength than diamond, while having higher melting point.

Besides, we know that ISD can get destroyed by asteroid impacts in low kiloton range, so mechanical strength isn't that great either; and Death Star seems to be based on gravity manipulation - from "superlaser", to engines - so some form of inertialess drive and/or SIF is not that far fetched.

Clearly, you think that making an older technology on an enormous scale doesn’t take any progression in engineering in the slightest. It’s not as though building larger structures are fundamentally more difficult, due to exponentially increasing external stresses and the need for highly consistent design specifications, right?

As I said, only new thing is larger extent of gravity manipulation, which adresses mechanical strengths.

What the fuck are you saying here? You know that the Death Star I isn’t 9 kilometers. It’s 120 or 160 kilometers. This is by your own word; and this is also very, very clearly observable in the films.

I am just saying that adjectives like "moon sized" don't show much, so you cans top using them.

If that is what you meant, then I would simply call a red herring, or even point out that your point supports my position; a moon sized battle station is going to require an inconceivably larger hyperdrive, with inconceivable amounts of power.

As above, stop using "moon sized", because it is meaningless. We all here know how large Death Stars are.

"Incredibly" and "inconcievable" is also useless. It is large, so of course it would require large hyperdrive and large reactor. But that proves nothing concrete.

Going just by primary canon, as you do, nothing indicates this.

How many times they ran into stormtroopers?

Besides, Death Star is an instrument of terror, meant to scare systems into submission so that, hopefully, total military may be reduced in size.

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever seen you make, Picard. Yes, the Enterprise E could be “moon sized” if you nitpick technicalities. But the Death Star is 160 kilometers long. What the fuck does nitpicking not even technicalities from Canon, but rather from my own words accomplish? Jack shit?

What I am saying is that you should stop throwing around vague quotes.

DSI is 120 kilometers. DSII is 160 kilometers. Federation Stardocks are between 4 and 12 kilometers, but there are large numbers of these.

Yes, Empire could easily outbuild Federation. But by what margin?

-Larger, mobile starships are exponentially more difficult to make, the more massive and spacious you make them.
-Constructing old technology on a massive scale is far more difficult than constructing it on a smaller scale.
-Nitpicking someone’s word choice of “moon sized”, in relation to a space station whose size is clearly and indisputable quantified, is pathetic.
-You haven’t provided any calculations or mathematics to substantiate your claim that these various arguments of yours would close the ten billion factor disparity between the Death Star and the entire Federation Starfleet in terms of industrial capacity.

1) Depends on technologies used.
2) Doesn't mean it was all old technology
3) Using such vagure quote in order to make impression is equally pathetic
4) No time, and no incentive since all times I did provide calculations in regrds to other things failed to make impression with you

[Praeothmin]

SWST, the earlier post I linked to already ahd debunked the numbers for the examples you used, had you bothered reading it (but you didn't, as always)...

And then Nowhereman completely obliterated your examples...
Oh well, I guess I won't have to... :)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

SWST, the earlier post I linked to already ahd debunked the numbers for the examples you used, had you bothered reading it (but you didn't, as always)...

No, you never bothered reading my post. Two of my arguments were "addressed" (read: claiming that it takes Han Solo and his team twelve hours to be brought outside of a tiny base), and the other was partially conceded:

This means his trip took 10 hours, not 6, for an actual speed of 4.38 million c.
Still very impressive, but not 20 times the speed I gave you for the ST:Gen example, barely 9 times, and that is one example, so it is not even good enough for an average...

Your entire get-around to my calculation is "well, it's only one example...". Well, I've provided several others, and I'm waiting for a response, because half of them are completely new.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Yes I know. But I don't remember seeing classic thrusters on Death Stars, so its propulsion system is most likely similar to Federation impulse drive, meaning that stress may not be nowhere as high as you claim.

Wait, so whatever happened to your assessment that the Death Star introduced no new technologies other than the superlaser? You're suddenly saying that they are using magic to move their ships, despite the fact that conventional starships use ion drives! What happened?

You adressed and failed. To quote:

The Death Star's hull would have to be made from a material 300,000 times stronger than structural steel just to accelerate at 1 km/s^2.

Nope, you went back too far chronologically. I already addressed your subsequent claim; that the melting of durasteel at Mustafar somehow indicates that durasteel's heat capacity is no higher than structural steel.

Besides, we know that ISD can get destroyed by asteroid impacts in low kiloton range, so mechanical strength isn't that great either;

Except that mechanical strength has to be great, or all of the Empire's ships would turn to mush whenever they accelerated at the speeds they are observed to move at.

and Death Star seems to be based on gravity manipulation -

Which doesn't explain the acceleration issue in the slightest.

from "superlaser",

Which has nothing to do with gravity. I might say that Mon Montha calls it the "largerst superlaser ever built", implying that they aren't new technology, by any means.

to engines - so some form of inertialess drive and/or SIF is not that far fetched.

Too bad for you that the standard of evidence needed to break physics is not "not that far fetched".

As I said, only new thing is larger extent of gravity manipulation, which adresses mechanical strengths.

No, it doesn't. I was referring to the stresses of the Death Star accelerating itself, not the 10 m/s^2 of standard Earth gravity.

And you seem to think that gravity manipulation would be free energy; if you remove gravitational potential energy, that energy must be converted into another form, in order to keep with CoE. So anti-grav technology must require significant amounts of energy in Star Wars.

I am just saying that adjectives like "moon sized" don't show much, so you cans top using them.

Which doesn't explain why this was your only response to the statement, rather than a nitpick, followed by an addressing of my actual argument.

As above, stop using "moon sized", because it is meaningless. We all here know how large Death Stars are.

"Incredibly" and "inconcievable" is also useless. It is large, so of course it would require large hyperdrive and large reactor. But that proves nothing concrete.

Absolutely nothing you've said proves anything concrete. You haven't presented any math to support your point, in the slightest. You've only posted an irrelevant analogy that proved the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make.

How many times they ran into stormtroopers?

A lot. Now who's the one saying nothing concrete?

Besides, Death Star is an instrument of terror, meant to scare systems into submission so that, hopefully, total military may be reduced in size.

Nothing in your own canon policy indicates this. Scaring systems into submission doesn't mean that they wished to reduce the size of the military. This is nothing more than vague speculation of your part, against hard, cold mathematics and physics.

What I am saying is that you should stop throwing around vague quotes.

And "how many times they ran into stormtroopers?" isn't vague now?

And I don't believe for a moment that it wasn't a stalling tactic. If it weren't, why didn't you also address the actual argument as well?

DSI is 120 kilometers. DSII is 160 kilometers. Federation Stardocks are between 4 and 12 kilometers, but there are large numbers of these.

Yes, Empire could easily outbuild Federation. But by what margin?

By an enormous margin. Comparing the Death Star to the entire starfleet, by your own math, gives the Empire the edge by at least nine orders of magnitude. Federation stardocks are immobile; they don't need to worry about the stresses of acceleration, and are therefore significantly easier to construct pound for pound.

According to your canon policy, Han Solo comforts Luke in RotJ by pointing out that the Executor isn't special, and that Vader is not necessarily in it; "there are plenty of command ships." Ergo, 11 kilometer long super star destroyers, FTL capable and built to commit to extreme acceleration feats (Battle of Endor), are commonly used as command ships in the Empire. Meanwhile, the Federation has never constructed mobile battleships larger than a few hundred meters in length.

1) Depends on technologies used.

No, it depends on what laws of physics are used. We are using our own here.

2) Doesn't mean it was all old technology

Except that you said it yourself, and it there was new technology, this proves my point even more! Really, what is this rebuttal supposed to rebute?

4) No time, and no incentive since all times I did provide calculations in regrds to other things failed to make impression with you

Except that you don't understand the most basic physical principles, yet feel qualified to make calculations in opposition to a mechanical engineer and a PHD astrophysicist. You think that "gravity manipulation" magically solves acceleration stresses, and that it is no more difficult to build a mobile ship than it is to build an immobile space station. You then contradict yourself repeatedly, claiming first that the Death Star uses almost no new technology, but then changing your mind and suggesting that it does. Then, you dishonestly skip into the middle of a debate segment chronologically, to give the impression that you already addressed my complaint.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Been lurking, but I got a good laugh out of SWST's horrible math assumptions here.

Been wrong before, but I find you familiar. Or maybe it's just that I find your arguments familiar, and that everything you are saying here is precisely what darkstar purports on his site.

On the Coruscant-Tatooine run my Darth Maul's ship

SWST claims 11 million C for a low end, but I only get 7,300,000c, and we generously keep assuming Padame's possible hyperbole of "halfway across the galaxy" were true. How did I get that? Let's start with the 10,000 ly number:

....

Your entire point rests on the premise that the SW galaxy is 10,000 LY long. Feel free to provide a source supporting this notion. And it's not as though 7 million or 11 million C really does anything to change my point.

Bad assumption tossing a one of a small, one of the kind ship's acceleration numbers out there and then assuming that every other craft in Star Wars has the same. Very dishonest.

Oh, yes, so the Empire's shuttles designed for orbit-ground transfer are several orders of magnitude slower than Dooku's now?

Given that I have also presented various other high-acceleration figures, including ones from the Executor and even the Death Star, Dooku was not utilizing technology ten times greater than everything else in the Star Wars canon. Sorry though.

Also for all we know, since Palpatine wanted to time everything with the fleet's arrival, he had Luke cool off in a cell somewhere for a few hours.

"For all we know?"

As it is, the progression of shadows...

Huh. Where have I heard this argument before? And how do you know how long a day is on Endor? Did you visit it yourself?

So realistically... 1-4 hours.

Sullust to Endor: 200 light years times 365 = 73,000. 73,000 times 24 hours = 1,752,000/ 1 hour = 1,752,000c. Assuming it took only an hour to move around that freaking ginourmous shield generator facility. If it took longer, say 3 hours, then we only have 584,000c.

One to four hours for Han Solo's team to storm a tiny base and then get captured?

When Leia said that the fleet should arrive "any moment", did she really mean "IN FOUR HOURS"?


And it's hilarious that you think an elite squad, on perhaps the most important ground mission in all of history, will take an hour to move around the "freaking ginormous" shield generation. It seems like a vague assumption, thrown in to cut the figure below one million, made with the hope that nobody will notice and question how you came to this conclusion.

SWST left out additonal information from the ANH novelization:

Han will be back in 3 weeks. Not 3 days. So it days days to get out there at the very least and the O200 arrival time coming after possibly a week or more in hyperspace.

If 24 hours, then 1,825,000c, not 10 million c, assuming 5,000 ly. If 7 days, then 260,710c. With the 30,000 ly distance he assumes, 1,564,285c is the maximum possible time in a week long travel time to Alderaan from Tatooine.

So SWST's numbers are just arbitrary wishful thinking and cherrypicking.

Oh, so you imagine that Han Solo never factored in the time it would take to actually acquire the money? I request a page number for your source. Does this occur before or after he meets Luke?

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By your own admittance, the Coruscant to Tatooine trip substantiates SW hyperdrive speeds of at least several million C, so I fail to see how your objections prove anything. And even figures for slipstream are only around one million C.

[Picard]

Wait, so whatever happened to your assessment that the Death Star introduced no new technologies other than the superlaser? You're suddenly saying that they are using magic to move their ships, despite the fact that conventional starships use ion drives! What happened?

Magic? No. Gravity manipulation? Yes.

Besides, as I said, it doesn't have to be new technology. Just one that requires enormous vessel to be applied in the first place. Because we see that Empire doesn't use inertialess drives on capital ships, and even SIF is questionable, considering that ISDs get destroyed by asteroids.

Nope, you went back too far chronologically. I already addressed your subsequent claim; that the melting of durasteel at Mustafar somehow indicates that durasteel's heat capacity is no higher than structural steel.

Oh, but it does.

Melting temperature of normal steel: 1130 ° C (starts melting), completely melted at 1492 ° C

Temperature of lava: 700 to 1200 ° C

Except that mechanical strength has to be great, or all of the Empire's ships would turn to mush whenever they accelerated at the speeds they are observed to move at.

Except that we don't "observe" them to achieve at any great accelerations. What we do observe is low-kiloton asteroid smashing ISD's bridge, ISD's barely able to avoid collision - and completely unable to slow down to halt from relatively low velocity in several miles' distance, Millenium Falcon achieving acceleration of 210 m/s^2, as opposed to TMP acceleration of over 30 000 m/s^2.

Which has nothing to do with gravity. I might say that Mon Montha calls it the "largerst superlaser ever built", implying that they aren't new technology, by any means.

I don't remember that quote from movie or movie novel.

And "superlaser" is not a laser.

Too bad for you that the standard of evidence needed to break physics is not "not that far fetched".

They already do break physics. Hyperspace, "superlaser"...

No, it doesn't. I was referring to the stresses of the Death Star accelerating itself, not the 10 m/s^2 of standard Earth gravity.

And you seem to think that gravity manipulation would be free energy; if you remove gravitational potential energy, that energy must be converted into another form, in order to keep with CoE. So anti-grav technology must require significant amounts of energy in Star Wars.

So I guess that huge fusion reactor at Death Star's core is for nothing...

Which doesn't explain why this was your only response to the statement, rather than a nitpick, followed by an addressing of my actual argument.

I thought that "moon sized" was integral part of your argument. You word it correctly, then I'll reply to it.

Nothing in your own canon policy indicates this. Scaring systems into submission doesn't mean that they wished to reduce the size of the military. This is nothing more than vague speculation of your part, against hard, cold mathematics and physics.

Hard, cold... what? Or you don't know anything at all about military doctrines?

By an enormous margin. Comparing the Death Star to the entire starfleet, by your own math, gives the Empire the edge by at least nine orders of magnitude. Federation stardocks are immobile; they don't need to worry about the stresses of acceleration, and are therefore significantly easier to construct pound for pound.

According to your canon policy, Han Solo comforts Luke in RotJ by pointing out that the Executor isn't special, and that Vader is not necessarily in it; "there are plenty of command ships." Ergo, 11 kilometer long super star destroyers, FTL capable and built to commit to extreme acceleration feats (Battle of Endor), are commonly used as command ships in the Empire. Meanwhile, the Federation has never constructed mobile battleships larger than a few hundred meters in length.

And Empire never used anything more advanced than fusion reactor as power source.

Except that you don't understand the most basic physical principles, yet feel qualified to make calculations in opposition to a mechanical engineer and a PHD astrophysicist. You think that "gravity manipulation" magically solves acceleration stresses, and that it is no more difficult to build a mobile ship than it is to build an immobile space station. You then contradict yourself repeatedly, claiming first that the Death Star uses almost no new technology, but then changing your mind and suggesting that it does. Then, you dishonestly skip into the middle of a debate segment chronologically, to give the impression that you already addressed my complaint.

What mechanical engineer?

Death Star has never shown great acceleration. It has never shown any acceleration, since we know that ships coming out of hyperspace keep moving at same velocity they were moving before entering hyperspace.

[theta_pinch]

Been lurking, but I got a good laugh out of SWST's horrible math assumptions here.

Been wrong before, but I find you familiar. Or maybe it's just that I find your arguments familiar, and that everything you are saying here is precisely what darkstar purports on his site.

On the Coruscant-Tatooine run my Darth Maul's ship

SWST claims 11 million C for a low end, but I only get 7,300,000c, and we generously keep assuming Padame's possible hyperbole of "halfway across the galaxy" were true. How did I get that? Let's start with the 10,000 ly number:

....

Your entire point rests on the premise that the SW galaxy is 10,000 LY long. Feel free to provide a source supporting this notion. And it's not as though 7 million or 11 million C really does anything to change my point.

From A New Hope:

"Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.

Modest: (of an amount, rate, or level of something) relatively moderate, limited, or small.

So according to Vader the galaxy is small.

According to NASA the average size for a galaxy is about 10 times smaller than the milky way or about 10,000 light years; the 10,000 light years is actually somewhat generous considering is small is below average so it should be smaller.