In defense on TDiC

[Mith]

I think you misunderstood, JMS. I never said that such a thing was stated in BoT. I just simply pointed out that the torpedoes used in TDiC look nothing at all like the plasma torpedoes. I suppose we could retroactively include trilithium in the TOS-era plasma torpedoes, as it would explain away the enormous power of that weapon, dispite the fact that it was fired by a relatively small, fusion-powered starship.

That's hardly an excuse to say that the Romulans would switch to weaker weapons. In fact, the whole black hole for a reactor would suggest that they were using it to power all that stuff that happens to take a great deal of energy.

Also, photons and phasers have also changed colors over the years, going from blue to red. I don't see why the Romulans can't do it.

[We never got to see the Romulan plasma torpedoes. The Cardassian ones we see in "Tears of the Prophets" [DS9, Season 6] are whiteish-yellow blobs that have nothing in common with either the Romulan BoT plasma torps, or the photon torpedoes with their distinctive flares. Certainly as of TNG's "Contagion", we know that at least one type of the D'Deridex warbirds carry photon torpedoes and use phasers as part of their weapons loadout inventories.

Um...you do know that early TNG had issues with getting weapon names right, don't you? They also said that the Warbird had phasers in that episode. I think the fact that their entire ship was going crazy might be a reasonable explination as to why they got it wrong.

Possibly. It could also be that the quantum singularity powered weapons of the Romulan and Cardassian ships are generally more powerful and can sustain that firepower longer than their antimatter-powered Federation and Klingon counterparts.

Um, there is no evidence that the Cardassians use quantum singularities as their power source. In fact, I think they also use matter/antimatter reactors, which are less efficient than the more advanced UFP ships.

Not directly applicable to TDiC, however, as the Keldon class (larger, more powerful version of the Galors) were specifically identified as having been uniquely modified to use the Romulan quantum singularities for their warp cores. Thus with these two factors in mind, the Keldons are likely more than capable of taking on a Vor'Cha.

Did they say that? If so I retract the above statement. But it doesn't appear that these modifications managed to reach the rest of the Cardassian fleet.

As for whether or not a GCS can beat a D'Deridex; that is a questionable assessment given that any time the E-D faced off with that class of warbird, it was generally a stalement, with the D'Deridex appearing to have the upper hand, though it required often a second D'Deridex to conclusively ensure the complete overwhelming of the E-D.

I suspect that the Romulan Warbird has stronger shielding and weapon power than the GCS, but their refire rate is lower, since their plasma torps rely upon recharging their launcher, where as the GCS can pump out five torps at once. That may just push the favor toward the GCS, not to mention greater manuverbility and her phaser arrays make it a hell of a fight.

Unfortunately, that does not explain away the enourmous power of the plasma torpedoes against the Federation outpost deflector shields, as well as the fact that had the one plasma torpedo hit even a fully shielded Enterprise at it's maximum power, it would have utterly destroyed her, or left her hopelessly wrecked and disabled. As it is, what makes the plasma torpedo useless is it is too slow to catch up to a starship before it's range limitation kicks in and it loses too much power to be devastatingly effective.
-Mike

Then why did the Cardassian weapon platforms beat the crap out of that UFP fleet? Surely they would have just flown right by it if it was so worthless?

Well, if anything suggests that the Romulans began modifying their plasma torpedoes to be more effective anti-starship tactical weapons, it is found in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2], where the Enterprise is surrounded by several warbirds, and is fired on with a much weaker, but much faster plasma torpedoes that have a greater rate of fire than the older prototype version from BoT.

That's likely what happened. Although, its possible that they just used less energy. Not to mention that the Enterprise wasn't going anywhere. It could also be an adaption to the plasma weapon, modifying her shields to be more resistant.

I think that the Romulan Warbird plasma torp is actually a lot like the ones that the Cardassian weapon platforms have, except the warbird likely doesn't have the same rate of fire, and being much larger and slower, she wouldn't be nearly as effective. That would explain why they're considered such a threat, but took such a hard beating in the war.

The older version though, as demonstrated quite conclusively in BoT, would make for a very ideal planetary and space station bombardment weapon.

Indeed, and with about a hundred years to perfect it, I wouldn't see what's wrong with using it as a heavy weapon to do so.

[Roondar]

Something worthy of note here:

Using a black hole as a reactor (via Hawking radiation) is not more efficient than matter/antimatter anihilation. At best it scores the same result.

And secondly, using a black hole as a reactor requires you to feed it with enough matter to get out the energy you want. Or, to be more clear, if you want the equivalent energy of anihilating 1KG of matter and 1KG of antimatter you'll need at least* 2KG of matter to do so using a black hole power generator.

*) Probably a bit more because a black hole as power source is less efficient than anihilation of matter.

[Mith]

Something worthy of note here:

Using a black hole as a reactor (via Hawking radiation) is not more efficient than matter/antimatter anihilation. At best it scores the same result.

And secondly, using a black hole as a reactor requires you to feed it with enough matter to get out the energy you want. Or, to be more clear, if you want the equivalent energy of anihilating 1KG of matter and 1KG of antimatter you'll need at least* 2KG of matter to do so using a black hole power generator.

*) Probably a bit more because a black hole as power source is less efficient than anihilation of matter.

The difference is however, you can pretty much feed a quantum singularity anything without having to turn it into something that requires massive energy to do so.

[Roondar]

Something worthy of note here:

Using a black hole as a reactor (via Hawking radiation) is not more efficient than matter/antimatter anihilation. At best it scores the same result.

And secondly, using a black hole as a reactor requires you to feed it with enough matter to get out the energy you want. Or, to be more clear, if you want the equivalent energy of anihilating 1KG of matter and 1KG of antimatter you'll need at least* 2KG of matter to do so using a black hole power generator.

*) Probably a bit more because a black hole as power source is less efficient than anihilation of matter.

The difference is however, you can pretty much feed a quantum singularity anything without having to turn it into something that requires massive energy to do so.

Quite true, they make for nice power generators.

Until you want to switch them off, cuz you can't ;)

[Mike DiCenso]

I think you misunderstood, JMS. I never said that such a thing was stated in BoT. I just simply pointed out that the torpedoes used in TDiC look nothing at all like the plasma torpedoes. I suppose we could retroactively include trilithium in the TOS-era plasma torpedoes, as it would explain away the enormous power of that weapon, dispite the fact that it was fired by a relatively small, fusion-powered starship.

That's hardly an excuse to say that the Romulans would switch to weaker weapons. In fact, the whole black hole for a reactor would suggest that they were using it to power all that stuff that happens to take a great deal of energy.

Also, photons and phasers have also changed colors over the years, going from blue to red. I don't see why the Romulans can't do it.

None of which has anything to do with what I was discussing with JMS above there. Also the configuration of the bolts the Romulan ships fire down onto the planet appear to be photon torpedoes, with the characteristic core glow and thin flare structures. The two types of plasma torpedoes we've seen over the years look nothing like that, generally appearing as orange-red blobs or white-yellow blobs.

Tactically the original plasma torp is almost useless against starships with warp maneuvering capability as it is too slow to fire, and takes far too long to catch up to an enemy vessel before it's limited range kicks in. It would instead be easier for the Romulans to downgrade the weapon so that it can be charged up and fired quicker, and maybe has a longer range.

We never got to see the Romulan plasma torpedoes. The Cardassian ones we see in "Tears of the Prophets" [DS9, Season 6] are whiteish-yellow blobs that have nothing in common with either the Romulan BoT plasma torps, or the photon torpedoes with their distinctive flares. Certainly as of TNG's "Contagion", we know that at least one type of the D'Deridex warbirds carry photon torpedoes and use phasers as part of their weapons loadout inventories.

Um...you do know that early TNG had issues with getting weapon names right, don't you? They also said that the Warbird had phasers in that episode. I think the fact that their entire ship was going crazy might be a reasonable explination as to why they got it wrong.

That is irrelevant whether or not the writers for "Contagion" got mixed up on weapons. Of course at this point is was not established that Romulan ships used disruptors, so phasers and photon torpedoes are just fine. The episode specifically identifies the photon torpedoes and we even see the torpedo tube glow as it opens up and starts charging up to fire. While the E-D was experiancing severe malfunctions due to the Iconian computer virus, but at this particular time nothing was mentioned about ship's sensors being effected. Also none of the characters ever stated that the sensors must be wrong because Romulan ships use different weapons, and so we have to take it as fact until other evidence says otherwise.

Possibly. It could also be that the quantum singularity powered weapons of the Romulan and Cardassian ships are generally more powerful and can sustain that firepower longer than their antimatter-powered Federation and Klingon counterparts.

Um, there is no evidence that the Cardassians use quantum singularities as their power source. In fact, I think they also use matter/antimatter reactors, which are less efficient than the more advanced UFP ships.

They were special modified Keldon class ships that the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar built for the mission. Presumably Cardassian ships do not, in fact, normally use anything other than M/AM reactions in their warp cores.

Not directly applicable to TDiC, however, as the Keldon class (larger, more powerful version of the Galors) were specifically identified as having been uniquely modified to use the Romulan quantum singularities for their warp cores. Thus with these two factors in mind, the Keldons are likely more than capable of taking on a Vor'Cha.

Did they say that? If so I retract the above statement. But it doesn't appear that these modifications managed to reach the rest of the Cardassian fleet.

When the combined fleet appears at DS9, all the Keldons register as being almost undistingushable from the de-cloaking warbirds in their initial signatures, causing even Dax to mistake a de-cloaking Keldon for a warbird for couple of seconds. But these are special-modifed vessels, and I would not expect a normal Cardassian starship to have either that kind of power source, much less a cloaking device.

As for whether or not a GCS can beat a D'Deridex; that is a questionable assessment given that any time the E-D faced off with that class of warbird, it was generally a stalement, with the D'Deridex appearing to have the upper hand, though it required often a second D'Deridex to conclusively ensure the complete overwhelming of the E-D.

I suspect that the Romulan Warbird has stronger shielding and weapon power than the GCS, but their refire rate is lower, since their plasma torps rely upon recharging their launcher, where as the GCS can pump out five torps at once. That may just push the favor toward the GCS, not to mention greater manuverbility and her phaser arrays make it a hell of a fight.

Except that D'Deridex, depending on the type, can pump out photon torpedoes, and use phasers or disruptors. It does not need plasma torpedoes to fight a GCS with.

Unfortunately, that does not explain away the enourmous power of the plasma torpedoes against the Federation outpost deflector shields, as well as the fact that had the one plasma torpedo hit even a fully shielded Enterprise at it's maximum power, it would have utterly destroyed her, or left her hopelessly wrecked and disabled. As it is, what makes the plasma torpedo useless is it is too slow to catch up to a starship before it's range limitation kicks in and it loses too much power to be devastatingly effective.
-Mike

Then why did the Cardassian weapon platforms beat the crap out of that UFP fleet? Surely they would have just flown right by it if it was so worthless?

You're making the mistake of comparing the plasma torpedoes of a completely different power (Carassian/Dominon) with the torpedoes of the Romulan Star Empire of more than a century prior. Another factor is that the Allied fleet was not fighting at warp during that battle. The weakness of plasma torpedoes is that in ship-to-ship comabt, they are useless. Not unless the plasma torpedoes are downgraded to fire faster and get longer ranges. As it is, the Cardassian/Dominion plasma torps required several shots each to merely severely damage single Allied ships, where as
in BoT, the one plasma torpedo alone could have killed the Enterprise were it not for it's range limitation. Therefore a weapon like that is useless against a starship that has room to maneuver and is capable of high-warp speed. The Allied fleet on the other hand was not at warp; was not in a position to go to warp; and was in close range combat with the orbital defense platforms.

Well, if anything suggests that the Romulans began modifying their plasma torpedoes to be more effective anti-starship tactical weapons, it is found in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2], where the Enterprise is surrounded by several warbirds, and is fired on with a much weaker, but much faster plasma torpedoes that have a greater rate of fire than the older prototype version from BoT.

That's likely what happened. Although, its possible that they just used less energy. Not to mention that the Enterprise wasn't going anywhere. It could also be an adaption to the plasma weapon, modifying her shields to be more resistant.

That is what I said.

I think that the Romulan Warbird plasma torp is actually a lot like the ones that the Cardassian weapon platforms have, except the warbird likely doesn't have the same rate of fire, and being much larger and slower, she wouldn't be nearly as effective. That would explain why they're considered such a threat, but took such a hard beating in the war.

We can't be certain as we have no confirmed use of the modern version of the Romulan plasma torpedo.

The older version though, as demonstrated quite conclusively in BoT, would make for a very ideal planetary and space station bombardment weapon.

Indeed, and with about a hundred years to perfect it, I wouldn't see what's wrong with using it as a heavy weapon to do so.

I've never stated that there was a problem with using it for planetary bombarment. In fact, I have stated several times that it is ideal for such, but that it makes a poor ship-to-ship weapon. I suggest that it could have been used in TDiC, but given that a photon torpedo can be modified to use more powerful warheads, like a gravimetric charge, it is possible that the torps seen being used could have been something like that as well.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Something worthy of note here:

Using a black hole as a reactor (via Hawking radiation) is not more efficient than matter/antimatter anihilation. At best it scores the same result.

And secondly, using a black hole as a reactor requires you to feed it with enough matter to get out the energy you want. Or, to be more clear, if you want the equivalent energy of anihilating 1KG of matter and 1KG of antimatter you'll need at least* 2KG of matter to do so using a black hole power generator.

*) Probably a bit more because a black hole as power source is less efficient than anihilation of matter.

The difference is however, you can pretty much feed a quantum singularity anything without having to turn it into something that requires massive energy to do so.

It may also go a ways towards explaining the enourmous size of the D'Deridex class warbirds, besides the simple intimidation factor, if their quantum singularities require so much matter to fuel them.
-Mike

[Mith]

Something worthy of note here:

Using a black hole as a reactor (via Hawking radiation) is not more efficient than matter/antimatter anihilation. At best it scores the same result.

And secondly, using a black hole as a reactor requires you to feed it with enough matter to get out the energy you want. Or, to be more clear, if you want the equivalent energy of anihilating 1KG of matter and 1KG of antimatter you'll need at least* 2KG of matter to do so using a black hole power generator.

*) Probably a bit more because a black hole as power source is less efficient than anihilation of matter.

The difference is however, you can pretty much feed a quantum singularity anything without having to turn it into something that requires massive energy to do so.

It may also go a ways towards explaining the enourmous size of the D'Deridex class warbirds, besides the simple intimidation factor, if their quantum singularities require so much matter to fuel them.
-Mike

Exactly, tha tlarge interior space could be a way of collecting stray matter, which would allow the warbird to basically refuel for free. Best of all, a quantum singularity will likely give the warbird a much greater output at one time, due to the speed at which it can absorb matter, and the fact it should be relatively easier to work with rather than a matter-antimatter reaction, which requires more finesse in sending particles at each other.

[Mith]

I think you misunderstood, JMS. I never said that such a thing was stated in BoT. I just simply pointed out that the torpedoes used in TDiC look nothing at all like the plasma torpedoes. I suppose we could retroactively include trilithium in the TOS-era plasma torpedoes, as it would explain away the enormous power of that weapon, dispite the fact that it was fired by a relatively small, fusion-powered starship.

We have no idea how that weapon was truly powered, although it did have some sort of technobabble component, since it implodes a target rather than the opposite.

None of which has anything to do with what I was discussing with JMS above there. Also the configuration of the bolts the Romulan ships fire down onto the planet appear to be photon torpedoes, with the characteristic core glow and thin flare structures. The two types of plasma torpedoes we've seen over the years look nothing like that, generally appearing as orange-red blobs or white-yellow blobs.

Tactically the original plasma torp is almost useless against starships with warp maneuvering capability as it is too slow to fire, and takes far too long to catch up to an enemy vessel before it's limited range kicks in. It would instead be easier for the Romulans to downgrade the weapon so that it can be charged up and fired quicker, and maybe has a longer range.

Except that said weapon was used by the Dominion in weapon platforms meant to hit ships. And claiming that they're poor ship to ship weapons is ballocks. The torpedo that the 1701 managed to survive had been weakened during FTL issue, that much is true, but had the Enterprise been fighting something that could fire more than every once and a while, and not on a power budget, they'd be royally screwed since that torp still took a lot out of them.

That is irrelevant whether or not the writers for "Contagion" got mixed up on weapons. Of course at this point is was not established that Romulan ships used disruptors, so phasers and photon torpedoes are just fine. The episode specifically identifies the photon torpedoes and we even see the torpedo tube glow as it opens up and starts charging up to fire. While the E-D was experiancing severe malfunctions due to the Iconian computer virus, but at this particular time nothing was mentioned about ship's sensors being effected. Also none of the characters ever stated that the sensors must be wrong because Romulan ships use different weapons, and so we have to take it as fact until other evidence says otherwise.

Actually, the ship's sensors were being affected if I recall correctly, hence why they thought the warbird was attacking.

And again, the fact that they mentioned phasers is a pretty big clue in that something was wrong, since Romulans use disruptor weapons. Hell, the characters tend to mix that up fairly often, since Admiral Ross made the same mistake in DS9, when he called a Romulan Disruptor a "phaser". It happens.

When the combined fleet appears at DS9, all the Keldons register as being almost undistingushable from the de-cloaking warbirds in their initial signatures, causing even Dax to mistake a de-cloaking Keldon for a warbird for couple of seconds. But these are special-modifed vessels, and I would not expect a normal Cardassian starship to have either that kind of power source, much less a cloaking device.

So? That could be the effect of the romulan cloaking devices, which may give off a specific type of signal.

Except that D'Deridex, depending on the type, can pump out photon torpedoes, and use phasers or disruptors. It does not need plasma torpedoes to fight a GCS with.

Sorry, but there is no reason why one ship of the same class should have disruptors, and the other phasers. That's utterly retarded. Very much so in a world that focuses on each ship class being the same, save for a few exceptions.

The Romulans use plasma torpedoes and disruptors. Nothing else.

You're making the mistake of comparing the plasma torpedoes of a completely different power (Carassian/Dominon) with the torpedoes of the Romulan Star Empire of more than a century prior. Another factor is that the Allied fleet was not fighting at warp during that battle. The weakness of plasma torpedoes is that in ship-to-ship comabt, they are useless. Not unless the plasma torpedoes are downgraded to fire faster and get longer ranges. As it is, the Cardassian/Dominion plasma torps required several shots each to merely severely damage single Allied ships, where as
in BoT, the one plasma torpedo alone could have killed the Enterprise were it not for it's range limitation. Therefore a weapon like that is useless against a starship that has room to maneuver and is capable of high-warp speed. The Allied fleet on the other hand was not at warp; was not in a position to go to warp; and was in close range combat with the orbital defense platforms.

Ah, so they just called them plasma torpedoes, despite the fact that they apparently opperate in a completely different manner? Yeah, I'm sure that's belivable. Excuse me while I try to pass of a fusion bomb as a photon torpedo.

We can't be certain as we have no confirmed use of the modern version of the Romulan plasma torpedo.

Actually, in DS9, it was stated that the Romulans wanted to arm a hospital they'd installed on the Bajoran moon with thousands of plasma torpedoes. I can only think they'd be planning on using them against ships, since I doubt they'd expect the Dominion to move a couple stations into orbit.

I've never stated that there was a problem with using it for planetary bombarment. In fact, I have stated several times that it is ideal for such, but that it makes a poor ship-to-ship weapon. I suggest that it could have been used in TDiC, but given that a photon torpedo can be modified to use more powerful warheads, like a gravimetric charge, it is possible that the torps seen being used could have been something like that as well.
-Mike

DS9 disagrees, as it was stated that the Romulans wanted to put up plasma torps on the hospital to protect it from Dominion threat.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think you misunderstood, JMS. I never said that such a thing was stated in BoT. I just simply pointed out that the torpedoes used in TDiC look nothing at all like the plasma torpedoes. I suppose we could retroactively include trilithium in the TOS-era plasma torpedoes, as it would explain away the enormous power of that weapon, dispite the fact that it was fired by a relatively small, fusion-powered starship.

We have no idea how that weapon was truly powered, although it did have some sort of technobabble component, since it implodes a target rather than the opposite.

We could say with a fair amount of certainty that the plasma is generated as by-product of whatever powers the thing, along with perhaps some other component that allows the plasma energy to envelope and crush the target object, be it asteroid or ship.

None of which has anything to do with what I was discussing with JMS above there. Also the configuration of the bolts the Romulan ships fire down onto the planet appear to be photon torpedoes, with the characteristic core glow and thin flare structures. The two types of plasma torpedoes we've seen over the years look nothing like that, generally appearing as orange-red blobs or white-yellow blobs.

Tactically the original plasma torp is almost useless against starships with warp maneuvering capability as it is too slow to fire, and takes far too long to catch up to an enemy vessel before it's limited range kicks in. It would instead be easier for the Romulans to downgrade the weapon so that it can be charged up and fired quicker, and maybe has a longer range.

Except that said weapon was used by the Dominion in weapon platforms meant to hit ships. And claiming that they're poor ship to ship weapons is ballocks. The torpedo that the 1701 managed to survive had been weakened during FTL issue, that much is true, but had the Enterprise been fighting something that could fire more than every once and a while, and not on a power budget, they'd be royally screwed since that torp still took a lot out of them.

Later on, yes, although the behavior and look of the Cardassian plasma torpedoes is nothing like what the romulan plasma weapon of BoT. It does not share the same color, is much smaller apparently, has a high ROF, and does not envelope it's target. They may be totally different weapons. And there's still that nagging range limitation issue of the original...

That is irrelevant whether or not the writers for "Contagion" got mixed up on weapons. Of course at this point is was not established that Romulan ships used disruptors, so phasers and photon torpedoes are just fine. The episode specifically identifies the photon torpedoes and we even see the torpedo tube glow as it opens up and starts charging up to fire. While the E-D was experiancing severe malfunctions due to the Iconian computer virus, but at this particular time nothing was mentioned about ship's sensors being effected. Also none of the characters ever stated that the sensors must be wrong because Romulan ships use different weapons, and so we have to take it as fact until other evidence says otherwise.

Actually, the ship's sensors were being affected if I recall correctly, hence why they thought the warbird was attacking.

And again, the fact that they mentioned phasers is a pretty big clue in that something was wrong, since Romulans use disruptor weapons. Hell, the characters tend to mix that up fairly often, since Admiral Ross made the same mistake in DS9, when he called a Romulan Disruptor a "phaser". It happens

.

I don't buy that. There is no evidence that the E-D's sensors were being affected by the Iconian virus at the time, though it became very clear that the Hakona's systems were also being affected, since it had indavertantly downloaded the Iconian virus when it intercepted the Yamato's logs. Here's the dialog from the scene:

[Bridge]

RIKER: Stay sharp, Mister O'Brien, I want to be able to pull them out of there at a moment's notice.
O'BRIEN [OC]: Aye, sir.
WESLEY: Commander, Romulan vessel.
(The big green ship decloaks in front of them)
RIKER: Open hailing frequencies.
WILLIAMS: (the lady who has replaced Worf) They're arming photon torpedoes.
RIKER: Shields up! Go to Red Alert.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields aren't responding.
WILLIAMS: They are preparing to fire photon torpedoes.
RIKER: Mister Crusher, I need those shields!
WESLEY: I'm trying, sir!
WILLIAMS: They're firing.
(No, they're not)
RIKER: What happened?
WILLIAMS: Instead of firing they suddenly disarmed and cancelled.
RIKER: Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise. Lock phasers on the Romulans and hold your fire.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields are back up.
RIKER: Impeccable timing.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields are back down.
WILLIAMS: Phaser banks are down.
WESLEY: Shields are back up.
TROI: In another time and place this could be funny.
RIKER: Status of torpedo banks?
WILLIAMS: They're down, too.
RIKER: In case it should become necessary to fight, could you arrange to find me some rocks to throw at them?
WILLIAMS: Sir, the Romulan torpedoes are continuing to arm and disarm.
RIKER: Maybe its attempt to fire was unintentional. Open hailing frequencies.
WILLIAMS: Open.
RIKER: Romulan vessel, this is Commander William Riker, First Officer of the USS Enterprise. Why did you attempt to fire on us?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: This is Sub-Commander Taris of the Haakona. Why have you penetrated deeper into the Neutral Zone?
RIKER: Why are you still here?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: I have claimed this planet for the Romulan Empire.
RIKER: This is the Neutral Zone. Nobody can claim anything.
TARIS [on viewscreen]: You will withdraw or I will be forced to destroy your ship and your away team.
(Transmission ends, the Romulan ship starts to cloak then decloaks again)
RIKER: What the hell?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: (through static) This is your final warning, I will not
(The picture clears up, but something else is going on off screen)
RIKER: Having a little trouble with your systems, Commander? Maybe we could consider postponing the war until we solve our more immediate problem?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: You're stalling for time.
WESLEY: Sir, another probe launched from the planet, heading toward the Romulans.
RIKER: Have we got our phasers back?
WILLIAMS: No, sir.
RIKER: Taris, if you've got phaser capability, prepare use them now!
TARIS [on viewscreen]: What?
RIKER: Destroy that probe!
(Transmission ends, the probe gets blown up)
RIKER: And not even a thank you.
TROI: Sub-Commander Taris is deeply frustrated, probably because her ship is as crippled as the Enterprise.
WESLEY: Why would the Romulans be experiencing problems? They weren't probed.
RIKER: They must have tapped into the Yamato log. Taris got a whole lot more than she bargained for. Maintain Red Alert. Try to keep those shields up in case Taris decides to act on her threat.
WESLEY: Commander, what about the away team? With the shields up, we can't beam them back.

Warbirds have torpedoes and phasers, the arming and disarming of it's torpedoes was real as a result of the Iconian virus. It is also established in the "The Defector" [TNG, Season 3], that there is a "B-type" warbird, so one might presume that there is at least an A-type, and that there differences, such as weapons.

When the combined fleet appears at DS9, all the Keldons register as being almost undistingushable from the de-cloaking warbirds in their initial signatures, causing even Dax to mistake a de-cloaking Keldon for a warbird for couple of seconds. But these are special-modifed vessels, and I would not expect a normal Cardassian starship to have either that kind of power source, much less a cloaking device.

So? That could be the effect of the romulan cloaking devices, which may give off a specific type of signal.

It might, or it might be that the cloak, plus power source is what confused her. Even if the Keldons didn't have quantum singularities, the warbirds do, and it is possible given their size and power that they could even have provided most of the firepower for the attack.

Except that D'Deridex, depending on the type, can pump out photon torpedoes, and use phasers or disruptors. It does not need plasma torpedoes to fight a GCS with.

Sorry, but there is no reason why one ship of the same class should have disruptors, and the other phasers. That's utterly retarded. Very much so in a world that focuses on each ship class being the same, save for a few exceptions.

The Romulans use plasma torpedoes and disruptors. Nothing else.

No so, as the "Contagion" quotes shows us. Not to mention, as I pointed out, there is a B-type warbird, so one type might use phasers and torpedoes while the other type is equipped differently, or maybe they both use phaser, photon torpedoes, and all other weapons types.

You're making the mistake of comparing the plasma torpedoes of a completely different power (Carassian/Dominon) with the torpedoes of the Romulan Star Empire of more than a century prior. Another factor is that the Allied fleet was not fighting at warp during that battle. The weakness of plasma torpedoes is that in ship-to-ship comabt, they are useless. Not unless the plasma torpedoes are downgraded to fire faster and get longer ranges. As it is, the Cardassian/Dominion plasma torps required several shots each to merely severely damage single Allied ships, where as
in BoT, the one plasma torpedo alone could have killed the Enterprise were it not for it's range limitation. Therefore a weapon like that is useless against a starship that has room to maneuver and is capable of high-warp speed. The Allied fleet on the other hand was not at warp; was not in a position to go to warp; and was in close range combat with the orbital defense platforms.

Ah, so they just called them plasma torpedoes, despite the fact that they apparently opperate in a completely different manner? Yeah, I'm sure that's belivable. Excuse me while I try to pass of a fusion bomb as a photon torpedo.

Certainly, especially if neither the Romulan or Cardassian plasma torpedoes are the same thing as the weapon used in BoT.

We can't be certain as we have no confirmed use of the modern version of the Romulan plasma torpedo.

Actually, in DS9, it was stated that the Romulans wanted to arm a hospital they'd installed on the Bajoran moon with thousands of plasma torpedoes. I can only think they'd be planning on using them against ships, since I doubt they'd expect the Dominion to move a couple stations into orbit.

That's what the Romulans claimed, but they may have had ulterior motives. Conversely, the plasma torpedoes are not the same thing used in BoT at all. If they are the same weapon, they are a weaker version intended to overcome the problems suffered by the original BoT model. Now both version can be used in ship-to-ship combat, but the original version would again have to be used against a ship incapable of warp maneuvering.

I've never stated that there was a problem with using it for planetary bombarment. In fact, I have stated several times that it is ideal for such, but that it makes a poor ship-to-ship weapon. I suggest that it could have been used in TDiC, but given that a photon torpedo can be modified to use more powerful warheads, like a gravimetric charge, it is possible that the torps seen being used could have been something like that as well.
-Mike

DS9 disagrees, as it was stated that the Romulans wanted to put up plasma torps on the hospital to protect it from Dominion threat.

Again, that is under the assumption that it is even the same weapon at all. It may not be. Note that the Cardassian version was only being used against ships that were unable to go to warp because of the mass fleet deployment. Against a single warp-driven starship, unfettered by large fleet operations, it might be just as useless as it's BoT forebearer.
-Mike

[Mith]

[We could say with a fair amount of certainty that the plasma is generated as by-product of whatever powers the thing, along with perhaps some other component that allows the plasma energy to envelope and crush the target object, be it asteroid or ship.

Evidence?

Later on, yes, although the behavior and look of the Cardassian plasma torpedoes is nothing like what the romulan plasma weapon of BoT. It does not share the same color, is much smaller apparently, has a high ROF, and does not envelope it's target. They may be totally different weapons. And there's still that nagging range limitation issue of the original...

Then why say plasma torpedo, despite the fact that it is clearly a different weapon? Your argument is lacking sense.

I don't buy that. There is no evidence that the E-D's sensors were being affected by the Iconian virus at the time, though it became very clear that the Hakona's systems were also being affected, since it had indavertantly downloaded the Iconian virus when it intercepted the Yamato's logs. Here's the dialog from the scene:

[Bridge]

RIKER: Stay sharp, Mister O'Brien, I want to be able to pull them out of there at a moment's notice.
O'BRIEN [OC]: Aye, sir.
WESLEY: Commander, Romulan vessel.
(The big green ship decloaks in front of them)
RIKER: Open hailing frequencies.
WILLIAMS: (the lady who has replaced Worf) They're arming photon torpedoes.
RIKER: Shields up! Go to Red Alert.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields aren't responding.
WILLIAMS: They are preparing to fire photon torpedoes.
RIKER: Mister Crusher, I need those shields!
WESLEY: I'm trying, sir!
WILLIAMS: They're firing.
(No, they're not)
RIKER: What happened?
WILLIAMS: Instead of firing they suddenly disarmed and cancelled.
RIKER: Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise. Lock phasers on the Romulans and hold your fire.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields are back up.
RIKER: Impeccable timing.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields are back down.
WILLIAMS: Phaser banks are down.
WESLEY: Shields are back up.
TROI: In another time and place this could be funny.
RIKER: Status of torpedo banks?
WILLIAMS: They're down, too.
RIKER: In case it should become necessary to fight, could you arrange to find me some rocks to throw at them?
WILLIAMS: Sir, the Romulan torpedoes are continuing to arm and disarm.
RIKER: Maybe its attempt to fire was unintentional. Open hailing frequencies.
WILLIAMS: Open.
RIKER: Romulan vessel, this is Commander William Riker, First Officer of the USS Enterprise. Why did you attempt to fire on us?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: This is Sub-Commander Taris of the Haakona. Why have you penetrated deeper into the Neutral Zone?
RIKER: Why are you still here?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: I have claimed this planet for the Romulan Empire.
RIKER: This is the Neutral Zone. Nobody can claim anything.
TARIS [on viewscreen]: You will withdraw or I will be forced to destroy your ship and your away team.
(Transmission ends, the Romulan ship starts to cloak then decloaks again)
RIKER: What the hell?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: (through static) This is your final warning, I will not
(The picture clears up, but something else is going on off screen)
RIKER: Having a little trouble with your systems, Commander? Maybe we could consider postponing the war until we solve our more immediate problem?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: You're stalling for time.
WESLEY: Sir, another probe launched from the planet, heading toward the Romulans.
RIKER: Have we got our phasers back?
WILLIAMS: No, sir.
RIKER: Taris, if you've got phaser capability, prepare use them now!
TARIS [on viewscreen]: What?
RIKER: Destroy that probe!
(Transmission ends, the probe gets blown up)
RIKER: And not even a thank you.
TROI: Sub-Commander Taris is deeply frustrated, probably because her ship is as crippled as the Enterprise.
WESLEY: Why would the Romulans be experiencing problems? They weren't probed.
RIKER: They must have tapped into the Yamato log. Taris got a whole lot more than she bargained for. Maintain Red Alert. Try to keep those shields up in case Taris decides to act on her threat.
WESLEY: Commander, what about the away team? With the shields up, we can't beam them back.

Then it is clear that there was a mistake. Romulan warbirds use disruptors. The very fact that they do not understand that the warbirds use disruptors is a tell tale sign. It's clear to me that they're applying their own weapon terms to Romulan weapons, despite the fact that later episodes, with more informed individuals are claiming otherwise.

I'm sorry, but using the claim of two officers attempting to discern enemy weaponry in the middle of a crises, with computer problems on top of it, as opposed to an officer that belongs to said enemy, you are seriously going off the deep end.

Warbirds have torpedoes and phasers, the arming and disarming of it's torpedoes was real as a result of the Iconian virus. It is also established in the "The Defector" [TNG, Season 3], that there is a "B-type" warbird, so one might presume that there is at least an A-type, and that there differences, such as weapons.

Or more likely, the Type A warbird might mean something else entirely. Hell, for all we know, the Type A warbird is a scout ship, a patrol ship, a cruiser, or God knows what else. The Romulans tend to re-use names, as do man ST powers. Look up the Bird of Prey if you doubt me.

In essence, your argument is faulty.

It might, or it might be that the cloak, plus power source is what confused her. Even if the Keldons didn't have quantum singularities, the warbirds do, and it is possible given their size and power that they could even have provided most of the firepower for the attack.

Except that when the Enterprise D had run ins with the warbirds, they didn't have Worf of Tasha going "Um...sir? That ship is running off a blackhole...". In fact, we tend to get Worf announcing that a warbird is "de-cloaking" and then we see it appear, suggesting that Romulan cloaks give off a distinct reading when lowered.

Again, you have no evidence aside from mere speculation.

No so, as the "Contagion" quotes shows us. Not to mention, as I pointed out, there is a B-type warbird, so one type might use phasers and torpedoes while the other type is equipped differently, or maybe they both use phaser, photon torpedoes, and all other weapons types.

Show me a reference to a different style warbird class that uses phasers and photon torpedoes, despite looking exactly the same as all other classes.

Go on, I dare you.

Certainly, especially if neither the Romulan or Cardassian plasma torpedoes are the same thing as the weapon used in BoT.

The appearences of ST weapons have changed throughout the series, as photon torpedoes were once blue, and then went to red. Same thing with the phasers. Surely they've altered the original weapon, but not so much that it's now so drastically different that it's no longer a true plasma torpedo. That defeats the whole purpose of naming a weapon.

That's what the Romulans claimed, but they may have had ulterior motives. Conversely, the plasma torpedoes are not the same thing used in BoT at all. If they are the same weapon, they are a weaker version intended to overcome the problems suffered by the original BoT model. Now both version can be used in ship-to-ship combat, but the original version would again have to be used against a ship incapable of warp maneuvering.

Yes, because no one would have suspected something was odd with the idea that an ally would suddenly use a weapon that they haven't use for ship to ship combat for about a hundred years and install it on a hospital for the purpose of fighting off invading ships.

Please, no one in their rightful mind would be as horribly stupid as to try and pull that trick over. No, it's rather a same issue deal with DS9, which uses photon torpedoes, because that's the standard warhead for UFP starships. Hence why a Romulan base would use plasma torpedoes, because they're the standard torp for Romulan Starships.

Besides, we see very little warp manuvering in ST battles these days, which suggest that a plasma torp, even limited as it was in TOS, would still be immensly effective.

Again, that is under the assumption that it is even the same weapon at all.

Yes, how dare I presume that "plasma torpedo" refers to a super weapon (albeit more advanced) of the same name used previous by this same government. Why, I suppose it would be as silly as me thinking that fission bomb is the same thing as a fission bomb used fifty years ago.

It may not be.

So despite all logic saying that it is, you'll say that it may not be...why?

Note that the Cardassian version was only being used against ships that were unable to go to warp because of the mass fleet deployment.

Oh yeah, that explains it. It also explains why it took a hundred or so years for the starships to reach their destination, since they are obviously unable to perform massive warping in large numbers. Or how none of the ships bothered to go to warp to avoid the platforms altogether and just attack the asteroid, thus saving them on ships and lives.

But then again, I suppose the small space of an exceptionally large void hundreds of thousands of kilometers wide in every direction is too tight for any ships to perform warp manuvers.

Against a single warp-driven starship, unfettered by large fleet operations, it might be just as useless as it's BoT forebearer.

Despite the fact that we rarely, if ever, see FTL battles anymore. And even if we were, the speed of a single plasma torp launched from a 100 year old fusion powered ship was able to overtake the Enterprise 1701 in full reverse, causing heavy damage to the shields. The only reason that it was actually useful in said battle is because the Bird of Prey had a major power limit that the Warbirds would not be subjected to.

Plasma torpes changing color does not change the fact that they are basically more advanced versions of the ones used in TOS. The Romulans use more advanced ones now, while the Cardassians use the more crude version in their weapon platforms.

Your claims hold no basis in reality. It's all under the assumption that the Romulans consider that everyone else is too stupid to realize the trick, and that UFP sensors are unable to tell the difference between a matter-antimatter warhead, and a plasma torpedo, despite the fact that even shielded stations can be scanned to see the number of photon torps they have.

[Mike DiCenso]

[We could say with a fair amount of certainty that the plasma is generated as by-product of whatever powers the thing, along with perhaps some other component that allows the plasma energy to envelope and crush the target object, be it asteroid or ship.

Evidence?

The trilithium quotes from DS9, assuming, of course, that they are the same weapon. But I've come to doubt that.

Later on, yes, although the behavior and look of the Cardassian plasma torpedoes is nothing like what the romulan plasma weapon of BoT. It does not share the same color, is much smaller apparently, has a high ROF, and does not envelope it's target. They may be totally different weapons. And there's still that nagging range limitation issue of the original...

Then why say plasma torpedo, despite the fact that it is clearly a different weapon? Your argument is lacking sense.

Because it is a form of plasma weapon, But like the plasma weapons of the pre-phaser ENT-era, they are a type of plasma weapon and nothing more. Just because it has plasma in the name does not mean it is the same weapon. All we know is that the TOS-era BoT weapon was theorized to use an enveloping plasma, and not much more. The visual evidence from "Tears of the Prophets" is enough to provide contradiction on it's own.

I would counter that it is you who's arguementation is lacking since you have providing little to connect the weapon of BoT with the plasma weapon of DS9, except an ambigous name.

I don't buy that. There is no evidence that the E-D's sensors were being affected by the Iconian virus at the time, though it became very clear that the Hakona's systems were also being affected, since it had indavertantly downloaded the Iconian virus when it intercepted the Yamato's logs. Here's the dialog from the scene:

[Bridge]

RIKER: Stay sharp, Mister O'Brien, I want to be able to pull them out of there at a moment's notice.
O'BRIEN [OC]: Aye, sir.
WESLEY: Commander, Romulan vessel.
(The big green ship decloaks in front of them)
RIKER: Open hailing frequencies.
WILLIAMS: (the lady who has replaced Worf) They're arming photon torpedoes.
RIKER: Shields up! Go to Red Alert.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields aren't responding.
WILLIAMS: They are preparing to fire photon torpedoes.
RIKER: Mister Crusher, I need those shields!
WESLEY: I'm trying, sir!
WILLIAMS: They're firing.
(No, they're not)
RIKER: What happened?
WILLIAMS: Instead of firing they suddenly disarmed and cancelled.
RIKER: Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise. Lock phasers on the Romulans and hold your fire.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields are back up.
RIKER: Impeccable timing.
WESLEY: Sir, the shields are back down.
WILLIAMS: Phaser banks are down.
WESLEY: Shields are back up.
TROI: In another time and place this could be funny.
RIKER: Status of torpedo banks?
WILLIAMS: They're down, too.
RIKER: In case it should become necessary to fight, could you arrange to find me some rocks to throw at them?
WILLIAMS: Sir, the Romulan torpedoes are continuing to arm and disarm.
RIKER: Maybe its attempt to fire was unintentional. Open hailing frequencies.
WILLIAMS: Open.
RIKER: Romulan vessel, this is Commander William Riker, First Officer of the USS Enterprise. Why did you attempt to fire on us?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: This is Sub-Commander Taris of the Haakona. Why have you penetrated deeper into the Neutral Zone?
RIKER: Why are you still here?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: I have claimed this planet for the Romulan Empire.
RIKER: This is the Neutral Zone. Nobody can claim anything.
TARIS [on viewscreen]: You will withdraw or I will be forced to destroy your ship and your away team.
(Transmission ends, the Romulan ship starts to cloak then decloaks again)
RIKER: What the hell?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: (through static) This is your final warning, I will not
(The picture clears up, but something else is going on off screen)
RIKER: Having a little trouble with your systems, Commander? Maybe we could consider postponing the war until we solve our more immediate problem?
TARIS [on viewscreen]: You're stalling for time.
WESLEY: Sir, another probe launched from the planet, heading toward the Romulans.
RIKER: Have we got our phasers back?
WILLIAMS: No, sir.
RIKER: Taris, if you've got phaser capability, prepare use them now!
TARIS [on viewscreen]: What?
RIKER: Destroy that probe!
(Transmission ends, the probe gets blown up)
RIKER: And not even a thank you.
TROI: Sub-Commander Taris is deeply frustrated, probably because her ship is as crippled as the Enterprise.
WESLEY: Why would the Romulans be experiencing problems? They weren't probed.
RIKER: They must have tapped into the Yamato log. Taris got a whole lot more than she bargained for. Maintain Red Alert. Try to keep those shields up in case Taris decides to act on her threat.
WESLEY: Commander, what about the away team? With the shields up, we can't beam them back.

Then it is clear that there was a mistake. Romulan warbirds use disruptors. The very fact that they do not understand that the warbirds use disruptors is a tell tale sign. It's clear to me that they're applying their own weapon terms to Romulan weapons, despite the fact that later episodes, with more informed individuals are claiming otherwise.

I'm sorry, but using the claim of two officers attempting to discern enemy weaponry in the middle of a crises, with computer problems on top of it, as opposed to an officer that belongs to said enemy, you are seriously going off the deep end.

No, you are just in denial. There is no contradiction here, no evidence of the E-D sensors providing false information, nor does Taris, the warbird's commander in anyway contradict them, and the visuals show the ship firing a beam that looks an awful lot like a phaser from the warbird's upper engineering wing hull.

Warbirds have torpedoes and phasers, the arming and disarming of it's torpedoes was real as a result of the Iconian virus. It is also established in the "The Defector" [TNG, Season 3], that there is a "B-type" warbird, so one might presume that there is at least an A-type, and that there differences, such as weapons.

Or more likely, the Type A warbird might mean something else entirely. Hell, for all we know, the Type A warbird is a scout ship, a patrol ship, a cruiser, or God knows what else. The Romulans tend to re-use names, as do man ST powers. Look up the Bird of Prey if you doubt me.

In essence, your argument is faulty.

No, because when they encountered scout vessels in "The Enemy" and "The Defector", they clearly identified those ships as scout craft, not warbirds. In TNG as well as DS9 and VOY they clearly made any reference to the term "warbird" is made to the big D'Deridex ships. Always. No exception until ST:Nemesis when we see the Valdore-type warbird.

It might, or it might be that the cloak, plus power source is what confused her. Even if the Keldons didn't have quantum singularities, the warbirds do, and it is possible given their size and power that they could even have provided most of the firepower for the attack.

Except that when the Enterprise D had run ins with the warbirds, they didn't have Worf of Tasha going "Um...sir? That ship is running off a blackhole...". In fact, we tend to get Worf announcing that a warbird is "de-cloaking" and then we see it appear, suggesting that Romulan cloaks give off a distinct reading when lowered.

Again, you have no evidence aside from mere speculation.

Wrong again, Mith. When we see Klingon ships decloak, no one confuses them, even for a second with Romulans, or vice-versa.

No so, as the "Contagion" quotes shows us. Not to mention, as I pointed out, there is a B-type warbird, so one type might use phasers and torpedoes while the other type is equipped differently, or maybe they both use phaser, photon torpedoes, and all other weapons types.

Show me a reference to a different style warbird class that uses phasers and photon torpedoes, despite looking exactly the same as all other classes.

Go on, I dare you

.

Why yes, I already did. The Hakona, which looks pretty much like all other D'Deridex warbirds from "Contagion". It's not my problem you don't want to except the evidence that at no point was contradicted, even by the commander of that warbird when she was specifically asked if her ship had phaser capacity, and was even shown making use of it against an Iconian probe.

Certainly, especially if neither the Romulan or Cardassian plasma torpedoes are the same thing as the weapon used in BoT.

The appearences of ST weapons have changed throughout the series, as photon torpedoes were once blue, and then went to red. Same thing with the phasers. Surely they've altered the original weapon, but not so much that it's now so drastically different that it's no longer a true plasma torpedo. That defeats the whole purpose of naming a weapon.

Never in BoT was the weapon mentioned as a "plasma torpedo". That is a fanon name, and was commonly also used in the old Starfleet Battles tactical wargame that was the name given to the BoT weapon, but nowhere canonically is that name given directly to the BoT weapon.

While it may be true that the weapons of DS9 are the decendants of the BoT weapon, there is nothing visually to connect it, in either visual form, nor in effects on targets.

Please provide evidence now that there is a simularity in the effects of the BoT weapon and the DSP plasma torpedo.

That's what the Romulans claimed, but they may have had ulterior motives. Conversely, the plasma torpedoes are not the same thing used in BoT at all. If they are the same weapon, they are a weaker version intended to overcome the problems suffered by the original BoT model. Now both versions can be used in ship-to-ship combat, but the original version would again have to be used against a ship incapable of warp maneuvering.

Yes, because no one would have suspected something was odd with the idea that an ally would suddenly use a weapon that they haven't use for ship to ship combat for about a hundred years and install it on a hospital for the purpose of fighting off invading ships.

Please, no one in their rightful mind would be as horribly stupid as to try and pull that trick over. No, it's rather a same issue deal with DS9, which uses photon torpedoes, because that's the standard warhead for UFP starships. Hence why a Romulan base would use plasma torpedoes, because they're the standard torp for Romulan Starships.

Besides, we see very little warp manuvering in ST battles these days, which suggest that a plasma torp, even limited as it was in TOS, would still be immensly effective.

It would only be effective in situations where a ship cannot jump to warp and outrun the torpedo. That is the only situation I will grant you where it can be effective. But if the plasma torpedo is the standard weapon, then why was a warbird specifically refered to as using photon torpedoes (without any contradiction whatsoever), and why do we not see these awesome plasma torpedoes used in combat on a regular basis as photon and quantum torpedoes are for UFP starships?

Yes, how dare I presume that "plasma torpedo" refers to a super weapon (albeit more advanced) of the same name used previous by this same government. Why, I suppose it would be as silly as me thinking that fission bomb is the same thing as a fission bomb used fifty years ago.

Okay, then tell me why the Klingon and UFP photonic torpedoes and later photon torpedoes aren't called "antimatter torpedoes" or "Antimatter bombs", even though we have several clear references to their warheads being antmatter? Not everything is in the name.

So despite all logic saying that it is, you'll say that it may not be...why?

When you how me first why photon(ic) torpedoes aren't named "antimatter torpedoes".

Note that the Cardassian version was only being used against ships that were unable to go to warp because of the mass fleet deployment.

Oh yeah, that explains it. It also explains why it took a hundred or so years for the starships to reach their destination, since they are obviously unable to perform massive warping in large numbers. Or how none of the ships bothered to go to warp to avoid the platforms altogether and just attack the asteroid, thus saving them on ships and lives.

But then again, I suppose the small space of an exceptionally large void hundreds of thousands of kilometers wide in every direction is too tight for any ships to perform warp manuvers.

For deep space manuevering, as the E-1701 did in BoT against the Romulan BoP. But in the Battle of Chintoka, where did they have the room to maneuver, especially in such tight formations to go to warp. In fact, why didn't the fleet jump to warp and stay there until a plan could be formulated to defeat the ODPs? Maybe because in that situation they couldn't... nah.

Against a single warp-driven starship, unfettered by large fleet operations, it might be just as useless as it's BoT forebearer.

Despite the fact that we rarely, if ever, see FTL battles anymore. And even if we were, the speed of a single plasma torp launched from a 100 year old fusion powered ship was able to overtake the Enterprise 1701 in full reverse, causing heavy damage to the shields. The only reason that it was actually useful in said battle is because the Bird of Prey had a major power limit that the Warbirds would not be subjected to.

Not necessarily as the same weapon was shown as being less effective in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2] and all ships were doing warp 5. More to the point, even if the BoP had more power, it still wouldn't help as the E-1701 would have just continued to move out of the weapon's range limit, while still peppering the BoP with torpedoes or proximity blast phasers.

Plasma torpes changing color does not change the fact that they are basically more advanced versions of the ones used in TOS. The Romulans use more advanced ones now, while the Cardassians use the more crude version in their weapon platforms.

Your claims hold no basis in reality. It's all under the assumption that the Romulans consider that everyone else is too stupid to realize the trick, and that UFP sensors are unable to tell the difference between a matter-antimatter warhead, and a plasma torpedo, despite the fact that even shielded stations can be scanned to see the number of photon torps they have.

No, you have no basis for your claims, except that you want above all else for those plasma torpedoes to be the same weapon as the one in BoT, and you have demonstrated even less to back that up. Furthermore, I do not appreciate your misrepresentation of my position. You left another key element out of the equation: the weapon BoT was theorized by the E-1701 scientists to be an enveloping plasma that implodes about the target object, but the Cardassian weapon is not only smaller than the BoT weapon, different in color and form, but does not envelope the target ships at all, instead exploding on contact with the shields or hull (cut and paste please for the Trekcore screencap links):

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ts_727.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ts_728.jpg

Those don't look or seem to act like the Romulan weapon in BoT at all:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x14h ... rhd124.jpg

So I would say it is you that is operating on a faulty assumption and without any evidence to back them up.
-Mike

[SailorSaturn13]

Logically it qappears torps are named after the attack agent rather then energy source. So "Plasma torpedo" means it attacks the ship with plasma, but the engine and payload could be different. And BoT doesn't explicitely call it "plasma torpedo", it can be some "plasmatic torpedo" or similar...

[Mith]

The trilithium quotes from DS9, assuming, of course, that they are the same weapon. But I've come to doubt that.

Provide the quote.

Because it is a form of plasma weapon, But like the plasma weapons of the pre-phaser ENT-era, they are a type of plasma weapon and nothing more. Just because it has plasma in the name does not mean it is the same weapon. All we know is that the TOS-era BoT weapon was theorized to use an enveloping plasma, and not much more. The visual evidence from "Tears of the Prophets" is enough to provide contradiction on it's own.

Really? Is that why in The Deadly Years, we see that the weapons hit the Enterprise, it didn't envelop it, despite the fact that we only saw Birds of Prey.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... rs_200.JPG
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... rs_208.JPG

We see clearly that the same plasma weapon was usable against enemy starships, I see no reason why they would switch to photon torpedoes.

I would counter that it is you who's arguementation is lacking since you have providing little to connect the weapon of BoT with the plasma weapon of DS9, except an ambigous name.

KIRA
High concentrations of trilithium
isotopes...

ODO
Which would indicate the presence
of Romulan plasma torpedoes.

And later...

KIRA
The seven thousand plasma
torpedoes that the Romulans have
secretly deployed there.

The senator claimed it was for defensive purposes, which means that like the plasma torpedoes used against the 1701, these can target enemy ships. Furthermore, DS9 was often much more accurate with the weaponry of other starships, where as early TNG made several mistakes as to what was a phaser or not.

No, you are just in denial. There is no contradiction here, no evidence of the E-D sensors providing false information, nor does Taris, the warbird's commander in anyway contradict them, and the visuals show the ship firing a beam that looks an awful lot like a phaser from the warbird's upper engineering wing hull.

Despite the fact that phasers are blue, red, and orange, while disruptor based weapons are green? Clearly, the sub-commander didn't challenge the point because Riker was clearly concerned about the danger of the probe, and with her own ship in poor condition, it was best to just destroy said probe.

And we have clear evidence that it was a disruptor cannon, not a phaser bank:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion168.jpg

If memory serves, disruptors tend to be green, where as phasers have only ever been blue, red, and orange.

No, because when they encountered scout vessels in "The Enemy" and "The Defector", they clearly identified those ships as scout craft, not warbirds. In TNG as well as DS9 and VOY they clearly made any reference to the term "warbird" is made to the big D'Deridex ships. Always. No exception until ST:Nemesis when we see the Valdore-type warbird.

Except that your wrong, since Riker was clearly wrong about the phaser armament of a warbird. The beam was green. Disruptors are green, and have been throughout TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

Wrong again, Mith. When we see Klingon ships decloak, no one confuses them, even for a second with Romulans, or vice-versa.

That might have something to do with the fact that the Klingon cloak may give off a different reading when decloaking, since the Romulans don't exactly share their cloaking technology with the Klingons anymore, in fact, they only thing they ever seem to trade are disruptor shots.

Why yes, I already did. The Hakona, which looks pretty much like all other D'Deridex warbirds from "Contagion". It's not my problem you don't want to except the evidence that at no point was contradicted, even by the commander of that warbird when she was specifically asked if her ship had phaser capacity, and was even shown making use of it against an Iconian probe.

Except that "phaser" beam was cleary a disruptor beam.

Never in BoT was the weapon mentioned as a "plasma torpedo". That is a fanon name, and was commonly also used in the old Starfleet Battles tactical wargame that was the name given to the BoT weapon, but nowhere canonically is that name given directly to the BoT weapon.

True, it was never specifically stated that the weapon was called a plasma torpedo, but it was described as such, and by the way, that claim about forcing an implosion? That was a theory by the lab onboard the starship, so it may not have been accurate.

While it may be true that the weapons of DS9 are the decendants of the BoT weapon, there is nothing visually to connect it, in either visual form, nor in effects on targets.

It's also true that photon torpedoes have changed a great deal since their use, even changing colors as the series progressed. Hell, phasers can change color apparently. Why is it that a plasma torpedo would be so difficult to adjust in color? Surely modifications to the technology would mean a different color?

It would only be effective in situations where a ship cannot jump to warp and outrun the torpedo. That is the only situation I will grant you where it can be effective. But if the plasma torpedo is the standard weapon, then why was a warbird specifically refered to as using photon torpedoes (without any contradiction whatsoever), and why do we not see these awesome plasma torpedoes used in combat on a regular basis as photon and quantum torpedoes are for UFP starships?

And again you fail. The fleet dropped out of warp to deal with the platforms because it would be an effective defense against any ship that entered the area. If a large fleet was the issue, why not send in a small strike team and just fire at them while in warp? The platforms would be worthless out of the fact that they could never hit an enemy, which would slowly destroy them.

And as for your crying of the plasma torp issue, we saw in the Deadly Years, that the plasma torpedoes were not exactly pwning the 1701 in one shot, and it was stated by Sulu that the Romulans would not be taking prisoners.

Okay, then tell me why the Klingon and UFP photonic torpedoes and later photon torpedoes aren't called "antimatter torpedoes" or "Antimatter bombs", even though we have several clear references to their warheads being antmatter? Not everything is in the name.

Out of Trek universe, it was from the simple fact that they weren't physical torpedoes with matter/antimatter to begin with, but rather just big blobs of light that were really strong.

This changed during Wrath of Khan, where they started using actual shells in the series.

In universe, it might refer to the glow of the shielding, rather than what the weapon itself if made of. However, the plasma torpedo is clearly a case of a plasma like weapon, even if further versions of said torp are enhanced with trilithium.

When you how me first why photon(ic) torpedoes aren't named "antimatter torpedoes".

Read above.

For deep space manuevering, as the E-1701 did in BoT against the Romulan BoP. But in the Battle of Chintoka, where did they have the room to maneuver, especially in such tight formations to go to warp. In fact, why didn't the fleet jump to warp and stay there until a plan could be formulated to defeat the ODPs? Maybe because in that situation they couldn't... nah.

Do you at all realize how much space there is between planets? Those ships are only about 1000 meters long for their big ships, most of which are rarely THAT long, and all of which are incredibly manuverable save for the GCS. Your claim that none of the ships, not even the smaller Defiant could do so is a load of bullcrap.

Not necessarily as the same weapon was shown as being less effective in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2] and all ships were doing warp 5. More to the point, even if the BoP had more power, it still wouldn't help as the E-1701 would have just continued to move out of the weapon's range limit, while still peppering the BoP with torpedoes or proximity blast phasers.

Or rather, since the close proximity to the ship made it harder for the 1701 to dodge, and it takes minutes of FTL at around Warp 8 to cause the plasma torpedo to dissapate, where here it took seconds, your claim is rather bogus.

Not to mention that Warp 8 is much faster than say, warp 5.

No, you have no basis for your claims, except that you want above all else for those plasma torpedoes to be the same weapon as the one in BoT, and you have demonstrated even less to back that up. Furthermore, I do not appreciate your misrepresentation of my position. You left another key element out of the equation: the weapon BoT was theorized by the E-1701 scientists to be an enveloping plasma that implodes about the target object, but the Cardassian weapon is not only smaller than the BoT weapon, different in color and form, but does not envelope the target ships at all, instead exploding on contact with the shields or hull (cut and paste please for the Trekcore screencap links):

You mean despite the fact that we see plasma torpedoes used in The Deadly Years acting the same way, suggesting that perhaps the people who speculated that the target was enveloped and forced into an imposlion were just plain wrong since on screen evidence says otherwise?

[Mike DiCenso]

The trilithium quotes from DS9, assuming, of course, that they are the same weapon. But I've come to doubt that.

Provide the quote.

I don't need to as for some reason you provide it below. But I'll just copy and post it up here:

KIRA
High concentrations of trilithium
isotopes...

ODO
Which would indicate the presence
of Romulan plasma torpedoes.


So how again is trilithium not associated with plasma torpedoes?

Because it is a form of plasma weapon, But like the plasma weapons of the pre-phaser ENT-era, they are a type of plasma weapon and nothing more. Just because it has plasma in the name does not mean it is the same weapon. All we know is that the TOS-era BoT weapon was theorized to use an enveloping plasma, and not much more. The visual evidence from "Tears of the Prophets" is enough to provide contradiction on it's own.

Really? Is that why in The Deadly Years, we see that the weapons hit the Enterprise, it didn't envelop it, despite the fact that we only saw Birds of Prey.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... rs_200.JPG
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... rs_208.JPG

And did you notice the gross inconsistancies in the weapon's appearance? That is because in order to save money the FX people at the time had to splice footage of the BoP from BoT with FX footage of the Enterprise falling under attack by a klingon ship in "Errand of Mercy".

The remastered version of the FX shows something a bit different with the BoPs firing smaller versions of the torpedo (may even be a different weapon) that remains consistant as it is shown hitting the Enterprise's shields. The VFX reel footage can be seen here.

We see clearly that the same plasma weapon was usable against enemy starships, I see no reason why they would switch to photon torpedoes.

Against a slow-moving, non-maneuvering Enterprise, sure, it worked well. Once Kirk retook command away from the highly incompetent Commodore Stocker, and actually got the ship to do something, the weapon, even in it's new form, is useless. So why not swtich to the faster, and generally more versitile photon torpedoes?

I would counter that it is you who's arguementation is lacking since you have providing little to connect the weapon of BoT with the plasma weapon of DS9, except an ambigous name.

KIRA
High concentrations of trilithium
isotopes...

ODO
Which would indicate the presence
of Romulan plasma torpedoes.

And later...

KIRA
The seven thousand plasma
torpedoes that the Romulans have
secretly deployed there.

The senator claimed it was for defensive purposes, which means that like the plasma torpedoes used against the 1701, these can target enemy ships. Furthermore, DS9 was often much more accurate with the weaponry of other starships, where as early TNG made several mistakes as to what was a phaser or not.

Where in the quote was it stated that they were to be used against ships? For all we know, once the war was finished, the real reason for the plasma torps to be there is to threaten Bajor. Again even if they were intended to be used against ships, it can only be reasonably used against ships that cannot maneuver at warp, assuming they are the same weapon as in BoT.

The senator's statements it was also clear were not taken at face value by Kira, which is why the blockade was put into effect by the Bajoran forces, and later backed up by Admiral Ross when push comes to shove at the end of the episode.

No, you are just in denial. There is no contradiction here, no evidence of the E-D sensors providing false information, nor does Taris, the warbird's commander in anyway contradict them, and the visuals show the ship firing a beam that looks an awful lot like a phaser from the warbird's upper engineering wing hull.

Despite the fact that phasers are blue, red, and orange, while disruptor based weapons are green? Clearly, the sub-commander didn't challenge the point because Riker was clearly concerned about the danger of the probe, and with her own ship in poor condition, it was best to just destroy said probe.

And we have clear evidence that it was a disruptor cannon, not a phaser bank:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion168.jpg

If memory serves, disruptors tend to be green, where as phasers have only ever been blue, red, and orange.

But everything about the Romulans is green themedwith only a few exceptions! How can you tell a Romulan phaser beam from a disruptor beam? Their starships are green (usually, TOS being the only exception), their torpedoes are green (TOS again being the only exception), their uniforms have sometimes been green, and so have their public buildings!

So what is your evidence that that beam is a green disruptor, versus it being a green phaser with the exception that what you cite for phaser colors are mostly Federation phasers? None!

Other uses of Romulan phasers occurs in "A Message in a Bottle" when Voyager EMH identifies the burns on a dying Prometheus crewman to be phaser burns. Here's the dialog:

EMH: Restricted? But this is important. Isn't there some sort of emergency comm. channel available? Try to lie still. You have severe phaser burns. What happened here?

OFFICER: Romulans. They've taken over the ship

We also know from TNG's "The Mind's Eye" that the Romulans have phaser technology as they created duplicate Federation phaser rifles to give rebels on a Klingon world in a bid to destroy the alliance between the Federation and Klingon Empire.

No, because when they encountered scout vessels in "The Enemy" and "The Defector", they clearly identified those ships as scout craft, not warbirds. In TNG as well as DS9 and VOY they clearly made any reference to the term "warbird" is made to the big D'Deridex ships. Always. No exception until ST:Nemesis when we see the Valdore-type warbird.

Except that your wrong, since Riker was clearly wrong about the phaser armament of a warbird. The beam was green. Disruptors are green, and have been throughout TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

Except he wasn't as no malfunction in the sensor readings was detected, and I have provided two additional examples of Romulan use of phasers or phaser technology.

Wrong again, Mith. When we see Klingon ships decloak, no one confuses them, even for a second with Romulans, or vice-versa.

That might have something to do with the fact that the Klingon cloak may give off a different reading when decloaking, since the Romulans don't exactly share their cloaking technology with the Klingons anymore, in fact, they only thing they ever seem to trade are disruptor shots.

Possibly, or more likely all 20 vessels have identical cloak and power signatures.

Why yes, I already did. The Hakona, which looks pretty much like all other D'Deridex warbirds from "Contagion". It's not my problem you don't want to except the evidence that at no point was contradicted, even by the commander of that warbird when she was specifically asked if her ship had phaser capacity, and was even shown making use of it against an Iconian probe.

Except that "phaser" beam was cleary a disruptor beam.

Except that they can and do use phasers and or make use of it's technology as I have given above. You now have to absolutely disprove that the Hakona is not a varient of the D'Deridex warbird that makes use of all phasers and photon torpedoes, or makes use of a mix of weapons, which happens to include them.

Never in BoT was the weapon mentioned as a "plasma torpedo". That is a fanon name, and was commonly also used in the old Starfleet Battles tactical wargame that was the name given to the BoT weapon, but nowhere canonically is that name given directly to the BoT weapon.

True, it was never specifically stated that the weapon was called a plasma torpedo, but it was described as such, and by the way, that claim about forcing an implosion? That was a theory by the lab onboard the starship, so it may not have been accurate.

That's actually a very good point. It was a theory, but it was one that fit very particular facts about what the weapon did to the asteroids and Federation bases constructed deep inside them: the iron asteroids pulverized into dust and a super tough material used in the bases' deflectors so badly damaged in such a way as Spock easily with little pressure from his fingers crumbled it to dust.

While it may be true that the weapons of DS9 are the decendants of the BoT weapon, there is nothing visually to connect it, in either visual form, nor in effects on targets.

It's also true that photon torpedoes have changed a great deal since their use, even changing colors as the series progressed. Hell, phasers can change color apparently. Why is it that a plasma torpedo would be so difficult to adjust in color? Surely modifications to the technology would mean a different color?

Another good point, but the problem is that when dialog indicates otherwise and we see in TDiC that torpedoes do exist for the Romulans, just simply green colored, that we must except that the Romulans use them. We also have to have a definite connection back to the BoT weapon, other than plasma, since as you noted, the E-1701's lab crew were theorizing how the weapon worked. It could be that the BoT and TDY weapons seen in TOS are something else entirely.

It would only be effective in situations where a ship cannot jump to warp and outrun the torpedo. That is the only situation I will grant you where it can be effective. But if the plasma torpedo is the standard weapon, then why was a warbird specifically refered to as using photon torpedoes (without any contradiction whatsoever), and why do we not see these awesome plasma torpedoes used in combat on a regular basis as photon and quantum torpedoes are for UFP starships?

And again you fail. The fleet dropped out of warp to deal with the platforms because it would be an effective defense against any ship that entered the area. If a large fleet was the issue, why not send in a small strike team and just fire at them while in warp? The platforms would be worthless out of the fact that they could never hit an enemy, which would slowly destroy them.

Yes, that is true, but one of the big flaws in DS9 and TNG was that lack of warp combat when it would be most advantageous. The other issue you left out was that the fleet was expecting the ODPs to be inactive, hopefully long enough for them to be able to take them out before could be brought online. Unfortunately, they were, and the near-disasterous mess that we saw that resulted.

And as for your crying of the plasma torp issue, we saw in the Deadly Years, that the plasma torpedoes were not exactly pwning the 1701 in one shot, and it was stated by Sulu that the Romulans would not be taking prisoners.

So? They most certainly were not effective as the BoT version was, and the remastered version shows the E-1701 just sitting there relative to the BoPs while they close in and plummeled the ship. In fact, in both versions the E-1701, thanks to Commodore Stocker's stupidity, does nothing at all, and the ship just sits there! Obviously once Kirk takes command, the situation dramatically changes, and the Enterprise gets away, leaving the BoPs and the weapons way behind.

I reiterate again that the weapon also appears somewhat different that it did in BoT in the remastered version, indicating a change.

Okay, then tell me why the Klingon and UFP photonic torpedoes and later photon torpedoes aren't called "antimatter torpedoes" or "Antimatter bombs", even though we have several clear references to their warheads being antmatter? Not everything is in the name.

Out of Trek universe, it was from the simple fact that they weren't physical torpedoes with matter/antimatter to begin with, but rather just big blobs of light that were really strong.

This changed during Wrath of Khan, where they started using actual shells in the series.

In universe, it might refer to the glow of the shielding, rather than what the weapon itself if made of. However, the plasma torpedo is clearly a case of a plasma like weapon, even if further versions of said torp are enhanced with trilithium.

Yes, that is the background production reason for the discrepancy. But we can't really take that intention into account, if we are going to treat the situation with an "in-universe" perspective.

As was pointed out, the name is not necessarily the power source for the weapon and vice-versa. That what a plasma torpedo uses is a trilitium isotope (as opposed to the regular resin?), that sounds like a component of the warhead or power source for the whole mechanism. We know from "By Inferno's Light", that when trilithium is mixed with protomatter and tekasite, it can make for a powerful explosive that can cause a star to go supernova. Trilithium was also a component of Dr. Soran's sun weapon. So one may conclude that it is the trilithium, possibly in combination with other compounds, that creates the huge energies for the weapon.

When you how me first why photon(ic) torpedoes aren't named "antimatter torpedoes".

Read above.

For deep space manuevering, as the E-1701 did in BoT against the Romulan BoP. But in the Battle of Chintoka, where did they have the room to maneuver, especially in such tight formations to go to warp. In fact, why didn't the fleet jump to warp and stay there until a plan could be formulated to defeat the ODPs? Maybe because in that situation they couldn't... nah.

Do you at all realize how much space there is between planets? Those ships are only about 1000 meters long for their big ships, most of which are rarely THAT long, and all of which are incredibly manuverable save for the GCS. Your claim that none of the ships, not even the smaller Defiant could do so is a load of bullcrap.

Did any of those ships engage in high-impulse maneuvers (read near light speed)? No. Did any of them break away to jump to warp to get away, at least temporarily from the ODPs once they became operational, and almost invunerable? No. They almost literally sat around getting plummeled by the ODP's phasers and plasma torpedoes.

If the fleet was so maneuverable, they should have extracated themselves from there, gone to warp, and then sent in a smaller force to try and take out the power generator on the asteroidal moon.

Not necessarily as the same weapon was shown as being less effective in "The Deadly Years" [TOS, Season 2] and all ships were doing warp 5. More to the point, even if the BoP had more power, it still wouldn't help as the E-1701 would have just continued to move out of the weapon's range limit, while still peppering the BoP with torpedoes or proximity blast phasers.

Or rather, since the close proximity to the ship made it harder for the 1701 to dodge, and it takes minutes of FTL at around Warp 8 to cause the plasma torpedo to dissapate, where here it took seconds, your claim is rather bogus.

Not to mention that Warp 8 is much faster than say, warp 5.

No, you obviously have not seen the episode. It is because of Commodore Stocker's incompetance that results in the Enterprise nearly being destroyed or captured. The idiot doesn't even order evasive action at any time, much less a change in speed, and he freezes up when engineering calls about power. That's why the weapons were hitting.

No, you have no basis for your claims, except that you want above all else for those plasma torpedoes to be the same weapon as the one in BoT, and you have demonstrated even less to back that up. Furthermore, I do not appreciate your misrepresentation of my position. You left another key element out of the equation: the weapon BoT was theorized by the E-1701 scientists to be an enveloping plasma that implodes about the target object, but the Cardassian weapon is not only smaller than the BoT weapon, different in color and form, but does not envelope the target ships at all, instead exploding on contact with the shields or hull (cut and paste please for the Trekcore screencap links):

You mean despite the fact that we see plasma torpedoes used in The Deadly Years acting the same way, suggesting that perhaps the people who speculated that the target was enveloped and forced into an imposlion were just plain wrong since on screen evidence says otherwise?

No, they don't act the same way. In fact, the TDY in the original version shows a contradiction in that the weapon goes from being a big, angry blob of writhering energy into a tiny white point with flares. The remastered version of the episode is at least smart enough to change the weapon so that it is smaller and splashes against the E-1701's shields.
-Mike

[2046]

A few notes:

1. Especially in the remastered version, the Romulan BoP weapons of "The Deadly Years" are not FTL.

2. Green phaser beam: http://www.phasers.net/2260/p2-wi09.jpg

3. It would make little sense for the "Image in the Sand" weapons to be strictly a planetary assault weapon. Were they strictly planetary assault weapons, and hence unusable for hospital defense, then that fact would've been very noteworthy in the exchanges that occurred between Bajoran, Federation, and Romulan personnel.

While it's true that Kira dismissed the concept of their presence for defensive purposes, this was not because of any statement that the weapon design was strictly for planetary attack. The issue was that they were on Bajor's fourth moon, and hence within bombardment range of Bajor, thereby constituting a "direct threat".