Reliability Issues With The Star Trek Technical Manuals

[Lucky]

Okay? None of this suggests or implies the Writers had a coherent warp paradigm they coherently followed. Which is the bone of contention, you claiming they had a better sense of scale/ possesing a consistent warp paradigm.

What the writers were thinking is unknown, and is irrelevant to this thread, but they seem to have had a reasonable idea as to the stories they wanted to tell though. I highly doubt most writers have exact numbers in their heads when they write a story as apposed to a general idea as to what they want.

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Season 1 of TNG was aired in 1987, but the writer's bible wasn't published until 1989. The tech manuals should conform to the season that was already written and aired, but don't. If we excepted a tech manual simply because it listed numbers we should except the

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You seem to assume I think the writers had exact numbers in their heads, or were notably consistent, I haven't done enough research to decide one way or the other.

What I know is that the distances traveled by the ships in every season of TNG exceeds what the tech manuals list as possible.

I Know the Warp scale used in TNG did not max out at warp 10.

Conversly I did provide an explicit TNG refrence linking greater warp speed with power generation which likely should be given more weight in determining what the Writers intended in that particuar era.

Travel times while at warp have always been variable. What we are talking about is the the maximum warp speeds, and that makes lesser speeds irrelevant to the discussion.

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The Traveler showed that high speed while at warp was dependent on warp field manipulation rather then the output of a reactor, but then The Borg does not seem to care about warp dynamics like every other group in Star Trek.

Which is not the argument. The argument is if the show Writers had a better sense of scale, that they had a consistent Warp scale they employed rather than simply being concerned with trying to write a good episode.

I haven't been arguing that the writers had exact numbers in their heads when they wrote episodes, but what we see is in no way consistent with the tech manuals. The writers kept certain things consistent in that ships in the show are always shown to be notably faster then the tech manuals allow, and are rarely traveling at warp 9 or higher while stopping at a planet or star for days or more.

[sonofccn]

What the writers were thinking is unknown, and is irrelevant to this thread, but they seem to have had a reasonable idea as to the stories they wanted to tell though. I highly doubt most writers have exact numbers in their heads when they write a story as apposed to a general idea as to what they want.

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Season 1 of TNG was aired in 1987, but the writer's bible wasn't published until 1989. The tech manuals should conform to the season that was already written and aired, but don't. If we excepted a tech manual simply because it listed numbers we should except the

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You seem to assume I think the writers had exact numbers in their heads, or were notably consistent, I haven't done enough research to decide one way or the other.

What I know is that the distances traveled by the ships in every season of TNG exceeds what the tech manuals list as possible.

You argued the "authors having less of a sense of scale then the script writers" implying said writers had a better scale which would mandate they had a rough consistency. Against which I have provided evidence showing both extremely divergent speed examples, ranging from millions to hundreds of c, as well as ones which match the paradigm offered by the Tech manual.

If you are argreeing the show writers didn't have any coherent thoughts on warp speed, that they were interested in story telling rather than techinical consistency, and merely plugged in whatever worked for that particuarly story, 37c this week then 1,000,000c next, then we have no argument.

I Know the Warp scale used in TNG did not max out at warp 10.

IIRC the only time we saw Warp ten or greater in TNG was during "All good things..." season 7 which should have been some time after the tech manual in question came out. Also, while I personally think the episode should be burned, "Threshold" {VOY-2} does indicate someone on the writing staff agreed with the warp 10 issue.

Travel times while at warp have always been variable.

Warp speeds are inconsistent but within universe they appear static. Warp 9 will always be faster than warp 2 rather we are in the Alpha or Delta quadrent.

What we are talking about is the the maximum warp speeds, and that makes lesser speeds irrelevant to the discussion.

And I am talking about Warp Speeds in total.

The Traveler showed that high speed while at warp was dependent on warp field manipulation rather then the output of a reactor, but then The Borg does not seem to care about warp dynamics like every other group in Star Trek.

The Traveler is a magical being with understanding and power far beyond Starfleet. Making anything he did suspect in terms of normal operation. As for the Borg, it was Picard who made the assumption regarding a race he knew virtually nothing about. He could only be making assumptions based on his frame of refrence rather than a specific Borg context.

The writers kept certain things consistent in that ships in the show are always shown to be notably faster then the tech manuals allow

Except the writers didn't always give values notably faster. "The Price" gives a slower speed while the "Most Toys" tops out warp 3 at 37c.

, and are rarely traveling at warp 9 or higher while stopping at a planet or star for days or more.

Indeed. And doing that and traversing distances faster than explicit examples, and slower than other explicit examples, quite demostrates the writers were inconsistent and incoherent on Warp speed. So no I don't think the writers had a better sense of scale and if they did, I'd argue, it would mirror closer to the tech manual than not.

[359]

Battle Lines
O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface.

To me this sounds like Starfleet sensors are both stupidly powerful, and stupidly sensitive. At best only 1% of the signal was reaching the Runabout, and it was still able to determine the general shape of the life forms. The closer to the satellites the more powerful the damping fields should be.

Assuming the dampening field extends from the satellites to the surface then it would still be more difficult to scan the planet than the satellites. While the field would be more intense the scan would only need to cut through that than rather than cut through that and the rest of the field as well.

To assume that a weapon(the one on the satellite) works through raw power would be dishonest. Who ever built the satellites had a good understanding of energy damping technologies, and a standard(by Star Trek standards) energy beam weapon being fired in a damping field would be rather inefficient.

The power of the weapon was what was concerning Kira.

A weapon that never hits its target can never damage it, and Starfleet shields are gravitational distortions that bend the attack away from the ship. The shields don't absorb anything, but redirect the attack hence the glow.

Except shields are hit by weapons fire, and some gets through. The more fire that hits the shield, the weaker and less effective the shield gets.

Voyager's crew bluntly stated they dialed their torpedo to just barely enough fire power to do the job given the data they had, and we are then told that the Nezu had done exactly the same thing twice with the same results. Why try something that had fail twice before unless you are trying to gather more data?

It never hurts to try again, and their attempt was better than nothing, most of the asteroid was eventually destroyed. Also, when did they directly state they had dialed down the energy? I can't find anything like that.

We also know that the cosmetic design of phasers changed over time, and it is very possible that the internal design changed. There seems to be a huge difference between a phaser exploding in TOS and a phaser exploding in TNG.

They do seem to have changed to some extent.

[Lucky]

Assuming the dampening field extends from the satellites to the surface then it would still be more difficult to scan the planet than the satellites. While the field would be more intense the scan would only need to cut through that than rather than cut through that and the rest of the field as well.

The satellites were what was generating the damping field. The closer you get to the source of the field the more powerful the field should be. Damping fields have always been a problem for federation vessels. The Doomsday Machine, Booby-Trap, Battle Lines

The power of the weapon was what was concerning Kira.

It wasn't a small amount of energy being talked about, but there are a few minor problem.

1) We don't know how well insulated the satellite was.

2) Kira states wattage, and not what the final charge was, and we don't know what the power was going to.

3) Kira is a good soldier, but how well does she know the capabilities of the ships?

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I probably sound like a scatter brained ditz.

Except shields are hit by weapons fire, and some gets through. The more fire that hits the shield, the weaker and less effective the shield gets.

We never see the weapon fire.

We never see the weapon hit anything.

We never see any damage caused by the weapon. All the damage we see was seemingly caused by the fall from orbit.

The Runabout is sitting in the middle of a damping field.

Given the problem caused by damping fields in "The Doomsday Machine" and "Booby Trap", I have to wonder if the satellite needed to damage the Runabout.

It never hurts to try again, and their attempt was better than nothing, most of the asteroid was eventually destroyed. Also, when did they directly state they had dialed down the energy? I can't find anything like that.

There is an old saying about doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome being a sign of insanity. A civilization that has mastered interstellar travel to the point that they have colonies on other planets has a much larger list of options then simply blowing the asteroid up with a single warhead. We real world planet bound folk have a longer list of ways to deal with asteroids then blow them up with a single warhead each.

The only reason I can think of that they would keep trying to blow up the asteroid with a single warhead when it has repeatedly failed is to gather data for when the larger cluster arrive in a few days.

They do seem to have changed to some extent.

It is stated that while the systems are very similar to those used in TOS they have differences.

LAFORGE: I don't know. It seems like some of it's held together pretty well. 


SCOTT: A century out of date. It's just obsolete. 


LAFORGE: Well you know, that's interesting because I was just thinking that a lot of these systems haven't changed much in the last seventy five years. This transporter is basically the same system we use on the Enterprise. Subspace radio and sensors still operate under the same basic principle. Impulse engine design hasn't changed much in the last two hundred years. If it wasn't for all the structural damage, this ship might still be in service today. 


SCOTT: Maybe so, but when they can build ships like your Enterprise, who'd want to pilot an old bucket like this?

It seems rather interesting that a ship could stay in service for about a hundred years.

[359]

The satellites were what was generating the damping field. The closer you get to the source of the field the more powerful the field should be. Damping fields have always been a problem for federation vessels. The Doomsday Machine, Booby-Trap, Battle Lines

The damping field in Battle Lines was stated to affect communications and the transporter, there was no mention of any kind of system reduction or failure onboard the runabout until they were hit by weapons fire.

It wasn't a small amount of energy being talked about, but there are a few minor problem.

1) We don't know how well insulated the satellite was.

2) Kira states wattage, and not what the final charge was, and we don't know what the power was going to.

3) Kira is a good soldier, but how well does she know the capabilities of the ships?

Yes it is not a small amount of energy, but compared to everything else we have seen every other starship take it is. Even compared to hand phasers in several instances it is a small amount of energy.

While it is true Kira was describing a wattage, not very much time passed, so the build up did not have time to create orders of magnitude greater energy than the wattage. And I would expect Kira would understand what small level of energy would not be a threat, much in the same way as we all understand that it takes more power to run a microwave than a standard lightbulb. Or that it takes more than pistol fire to penetrate modern armor.

Except shields are hit by weapons fire, and some gets through. The more fire that hits the shield, the weaker and less effective the shield gets.

We never see the weapon fire.

I was describing shields in general, and there is no reason to assume they would opperate any differently in this situation.

There is an old saying about doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome being a sign of insanity. A civilization that has mastered interstellar travel to the point that they have colonies on other planets has a much larger list of options then simply blowing the asteroid up with a single warhead. We real world planet bound folk have a longer list of ways to deal with asteroids then blow them up with a single warhead each.

The only reason I can think of that they would keep trying to blow up the asteroid with a single warhead when it has repeatedly failed is to gather data for when the larger cluster arrive in a few days.

They did expect the torpedo to vaporize the asteroid. Even so, their efforts were not a complete waste as they destroyed most of it before it entered the atmosphere. Nothing, even the idea of experimentation, indicates that they could have fired with a greater yield.

[Lucky]

The damping field in Battle Lines was stated to affect communications and the transporter, there was no mention of any kind of system reduction or failure onboard the runabout until they were hit by weapons fire.

That isn't how it works.

O'BRIEN: It's some kind of artificial satellite system. That's what our probe must have picked up. 


DAX: Our sensors are reading lifeforms on the surface, Chief. I think some of them are human. 


O'BRIEN: If the ship's down there, why wouldn't the transponder be sending out a 


DAX: We're being scanned 


O'BRIEN: Increasing orbital altitude. 


DAX: What are you thinking? 


O'BRIEN: The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so 


DAX: Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout. 


O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface. 


DAX: Is there any way for us to get a comm. line through the field? 


O'BRIEN: Well, I've got one percent to work with, don't I?

Notice that Miles wants to get out of the damping field as soon as he realizes it is there. This means the damping field is a threat to the Runabout.

There is no real difference between what a radar, a radio transmitter, and a death ray shoot, and the moon/planet was seemingly cloaked in eternal night.

Yes it is not a small amount of energy, but compared to everything else we have seen every other starship take it is. Even compared to hand phasers in several instances it is a small amount of energy.

There is a big difference between giga joules delved in a focused pulse, and a gigawatt delved over a second.

While it is true Kira was describing a wattage, not very much time passed, so the build up did not have time to create orders of magnitude greater energy than the wattage. And I would expect Kira would understand what small level of energy would not be a threat, much in the same way as we all understand that it takes more power to run a microwave than a standard lightbulb. Or that it takes more than pistol fire to penetrate modern armor.

This is going to sound annoying, but kind of needs to be stated.

1) We don't know what the wattage was going to. We only assume it was being sent to a weapon. What if the wattage was going to sensors on the satellite?

2) Seemingly no one had been to the system for years. The satellite could have been charging for days, weeks, months, or even years. Even if it charged at a rate of only 1 watt normally that adds up rather quickly, 1440 watts a day, 10080 watts a week, 43200 watts a month, 525600 watts a year, and that is just a rate of 1 watt. Kira was only able to read what was visible over the background radiation.

3) What if the Runabout was reading how much power was being drained from its own systems?

I was describing shields in general, and there is no reason to assume they would opperate any differently in this situation.

But we know different weapons can interact with shields differently, and depending on what frequency*, a weapon that normally is stopped by shields will ignore them.

For all we know the satellite never fired a weapon, but caused something akin to a lightning strike.

*We actually have no idea what frequency actually means in the context of shields and weapons in Star Trek.

They did expect the torpedo to vaporize the asteroid. Even so, their efforts were not a complete waste as they destroyed most of it before it entered the atmosphere. Nothing, even the idea of experimentation, indicates that they could have fired with a greater yield.

Actually the fragments that got through seemed to have effects like rather large modern nukes. How large was the asteroid again?

TUVOK: I've destroyed most of the debris, Captain, however targeting scanners were unable to track two of the fragments. They have already entered the upper atmosphere. The debris impacted on the largest continent, approximately 500 kilometres from the southern tip. 


NEZU AMBASSADOR: The central desert. Fortunately that region isn't heavily populated. 


TUVOK: Substantial cratering, atmospheric shockwaves, and large concentrations of dust and other stratospheric contaminants.

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TUVOK: We're entering a layer of electro-dynamic turbulence. Full power to thrusters. 


NEELIX: Thrusters aren't responding. 


TUVOK: Attempting to level our descent. 


NEELIX: We're losing main power. 


TUVOK: I'll have to land the shuttle manually. Brace for impact.

One thing I never understood about Rise was why they were trying to vaporize the asteroids in the first place. They have ships that are able to travel between stars. Just catch the asteroids with cables or something. >_<

[359]

That isn't how it works.

According to this episode it is.

Notice that Miles wants to get out of the damping field as soon as he realizes it is there. This means the damping field is a threat to the Runabout.

No, he moved into a higher orbit when one of the satellites began scanning their ship. It wasn't until afterwards that he confirmed the existence of a damping field. This is O'Brien's thought process as stated in the dialog you quoted.

O'Brien: "The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so"

Dax: "Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout."

O'Brien: "Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface."

1)The transporter should be sending a signal.

2)We are not receiving it's signal, only a damping field can block the signal.

3)There are low-orbit satellites so they probably generate this field.

4)Satellites begin to become active, perhaps they 'acted' on our other runabout.

5)Moving to a higher orbit will prevent them from acting on us.

He did not seem particularly concerned with the damping field, he moved the ship because he thought that the satellites were going to 'do unto him' just as they may have (and did) cause the loss of another runabout.

There is a big difference between giga joules delved in a focused pulse, and a gigawatt delved over a second.

Yes there is, but not as much of a deference as comparing either of those to having any atomic bomb exploded right next to you.

1) We don't know what the wattage was going to. We only assume it was being sent to a weapon. What if the wattage was going to sensors on the satellite?

But the total energy should not have been sufficient to overcome the shields, or even the hull. Nor should the power be anywhere on the scale of a starship phaser beam.

2) Seemingly no one had been to the system for years. The satellite could have been charging for days, weeks, months, or even years. Even if it charged at a rate of only 1 watt normally that adds up rather quickly, 1440 watts a day, 10080 watts a week, 43200 watts a month, 525600 watts a year, and that is just a rate of 1 watt. Kira was only able to read what was visible over the background radiation.

Kira noted a significant power buildup. This was on the order of one gigawatt, resulting in a probable charge of 5 to 10 GJ. There is nothing to indicate that the satellite had been charging for any longer duration. To claim it was would be baseless.

3) What if the Runabout was reading how much power was being drained from its own systems?

Kira: "Reading a significant energy build-up in the satellite."
In the satellite.

But we know different weapons can interact with shields differently, and depending on what frequency*, a weapon that normally is stopped by shields will ignore them.

But by far most weapons act just as you would expect, the hit the shields and are absorbed/repelled/etc... causing little damage. In cases where they bypass the shields the dialog specifically states it. It was not stated in this episode, so it is highly unlikely that was the case in this instance.

For all we know the satellite never fired a weapon, but caused something akin to a lightning strike.

I think even a purposeful lightning strike would count as a weapon.

Actually the fragments that got through seemed to have effects like rather large modern nukes. How large was the asteroid again?

I calculated it to be 205 m on its major axis, 2046 calculated it to 390 m on its major axis.

[Lucky]

According to this episode it is.

We're specifically told the damping field dampens a wide range of of frequency, hence broadband. Simply put the dampening field dampens all wavelengths/energies, and we are shown a planet/moon cloaked in eternal night, and the damping field effects sensor, and communications.

No, he moved into a higher orbit when one of the satellites began scanning their ship. It wasn't until afterwards that he confirmed the existence of a damping field. This is O'Brien's thought process as stated in the dialog you quoted.

O'Brien: "The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so"

Dax: "Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout."

O'Brien: "Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface."

1)The transporter should be sending a signal.

2)We are not receiving it's signal, only a damping field can block the signal.

3)There are low-orbit satellites so they probably generate this field.

4)Satellites begin to become active, perhaps they 'acted' on our other runabout.

5)Moving to a higher orbit will prevent them from acting on us.

He did not seem particularly concerned with the damping field, he moved the ship because he thought that the satellites were going to 'do unto him' just as they may have (and did) cause the loss of another runabout.

Miles simply moved out of the damping field. If he had thought there was a danger beyond the damping field he would have gone farther away do to do to the fact a few thousand kilometers is still in range of most anti-ship weapons.

Yes there is, but not as much of a deference as comparing either of those to having any atomic bomb exploded right next to you.

But in this case we are talking about a focused mono-directional beam VS a focused mono-directional pulse. This has nothing to do with an omnidirectional blasts.

But the total energy should not have been sufficient to overcome the shields, or even the hull. Nor should the power be anywhere on the scale of a starship phaser beam.

It seems rather clear to me that two weapons with the same yeild will not necessarily have the same effects on armor

QUARK: The Breen CRM one-fourteen works equally well against moving vessels or surface emplacements. It's guaranteed to cut through reactive armour in the six to fifteen centimetre range, and shields to four point six gigajoules.

If yield was the only issue for getting through shields in Star Trek then this sales pitch does not make sense.

Kira noted a significant power buildup. This was on the order of one gigawatt, resulting in a probable charge of 5 to 10 GJ. There is nothing to indicate that the satellite had been charging for any longer duration. To claim it was would be baseless.

We are never told how many joules the "significant build up" was.

Kira: "Reading a significant energy build-up in the satellite."
In the satellite.

And things are not always as they appear. Where does the satellite get power from? Does it have some sort of reactor, or does it use the damping field as a power source?

How much is a significant energy build up? If we assume the wattage is going to a weapon then the output would be "significant energy build up"+a few gigawatts.

But by far most weapons act just as you would expect, the hit the shields and are absorbed/repelled/etc... causing little damage. In cases where they bypass the shields the dialog specifically states it. It was not stated in this episode, so it is highly unlikely that was the case in this instance.

There wouldn't have been time to say the weapon ignored shields, and no one went over the data about the weapon.

The CRM-114 is specifically touted as having anti-shield and anti-armor properties. It isn't a matter of X yield will always result in Y effect.

I think even a purposeful lightning strike would count as a weapon.

The point was that lightning does not travel in one direction even if it looks like it does.

Assumption 1) what brought the shields down and disabled the runabout was an energy pulse, and only an energy pulse.

Assumption 2) The satellite had an internal power-source.

What if the satellite was drawing the increased power from the runabout, and then returning it in order to disable the runabout?* It would certainly make the events more complex.

*We see this in TNG: Booby trap.

I calculated it to be 205 m on its major axis, 2046 calculated it to 390 m on its major axis.

Would the fragments be large enough to cause the stated damage if the asteroid was between 200 and 400 meters?

[359]

We're specifically told the damping field dampens a wide range of of frequency, hence broadband. Simply put the dampening field dampens all wavelengths/energies, and we are shown a planet/moon cloaked in eternal night, and the damping field effects sensor, and communications.

But here we are told exactly what the field is, and what it affects.

O'Brien: "Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface."

It is a mutual induction field which blocks communications signals, scans, and transporters. There is not mention or indication of affected ship systems.

Miles simply moved out of the damping field. If he had thought there was a danger beyond the damping field he would have gone farther away do to do to the fact a few thousand kilometers is still in range of most anti-ship weapons.

True, that is normally in weapons range, perhaps not in this case. Or he moved to prevent the satellites from considering him a threat. In any case he was in no way concerned about the damping field or any alleged affects it would have on the runabout, he was clearly thinking about the satellites shooting at him. He didn't even confirm the existence of the mutual induction field until after he moved further out.

Actually until they tried to read the transponder and found they couldn't, they had no reason to think there was anything funny going on. No noticed affect on the runabout.

Yes there is, but not as much of a deference as comparing either of those to having any atomic bomb exploded right next to you.

But in this case we are talking about a focused mono-directional beam VS a focused mono-directional pulse. This has nothing to do with an omnidirectional blasts.

I was making an orders of magnitude comparison. It doesn't really matter exactly how many gigajoules, or how they are delivered for the purposes of this discussion. The effect of the blast used against the runabout is, by any interpretation, far less potent than any other example of ships weapons throughout Star Trek.

It seems rather clear to me that two weapons with the same yeild will not necessarily have the same effects on armor

QUARK: The Breen CRM one-fourteen works equally well against moving vessels or surface emplacements. It's guaranteed to cut through reactive armour in the six to fifteen centimetre range, and shields to four point six gigajoules.

If yield was the only issue for getting through shields in Star Trek then this sales pitch does not make sense.

Or the weapon simply has a high enough yield to overcome shields and armor in that range and it is being advertised for it.

We are never told how many joules the "significant build up" was.

No, but it starts with Kira stating a buildup in the hundreds of megawatts, increasing to gigawatts. This would at a guess be around 10 GJ. Or one could say Kira was mixing up watts and joules and go with a 1 GJ buildup, it really doesn't matter.

And things are not always as they appear. Where does the satellite get power from? Does it have some sort of reactor, or does it use the damping field as a power source?

Why would they not be as they appear? There is no reason to assume that. The baseline assumption is things are as they appear, until you have reason to believe otherwise.

Is that a computer screen you are reading this post on? Things are not always as they appear. Watch-out! It's really a crocodile reading you a poem!

All joking aside, the satellites would quite probably have a reactor as they need to a)Power the damping field, and b)Power their weapons.

The point was that lightning does not travel in one direction even if it looks like it does.

Assumption 1) what brought the shields down and disabled the runabout was an energy pulse, and only an energy pulse.

Assumption 2) The satellite had an internal power-source.

What if the satellite was drawing the increased power from the runabout, and then returning it in order to disable the runabout?* It would certainly make the events more complex.

*We see this in TNG: Booby trap.

It is certainly possible that the satilites were powered by the things from TNG: "Booby Trap", except it isn't because the runabout never experienced a loss in power (until the first one was shot) and they could still move.

Those assumptions you mention for my argument seem fairly accurate, and I have no problem with them. For instance, they are the same assumptions I use for Cardassian warships (which we never have any explanation of how they work either). The Cardassians probably use an internal power source, I'll take it one step further and call it a warp core, and they use energy beam weapons to take down the shields of and damage other ships, say, the Defiant.

Would the fragments be large enough to cause the stated damage if the asteroid was between 200 and 400 meters?

At a guess, probably.

[2046]

A thought regarding Battle Lines...

If a runabout entered an area being affected by a dampening field which itself could not penetrate shields, it might nevertheless affect the shield ability to re-radiate energy by dampening that effect, thereby providing a sort of force multiplier to a weapon used against the shield.


This assumes re-radiating energy occurs at the shield perimeter and constitutes a significant portion of the shield's effectiveness against said weapon. Think of shooting a watergun at a paper towel in the desert, with the paper towel shielding something that must not get wet. Some of the water shot will bounce off, some will wet the paper towel which will then "re-radiate" the water as it spreads out and evaporates. If the dampening field is like jacking up the humidity, evaporation will cease and the paper towel will fail faster.

[359]

Even assuming the vast majority of a shield's strength comes from dissipation rates, and all of that is gone; a mere 10 GJ should still be insufficient to penetrate the runabout shields, or even the hull, by any other example.

And assuming dissipation is the shield's main defense is counter to what is shown. If a shield can dissipate energy at x watts, then any weapon inputing <= x watts to the shield should theoretically do no damage at all. And any weapons putting in y watts (where y > x) should always do damage y-x to the ship unless the shield has a sort of buffer energy to absorb the excess. Of course this is what is shown, but we have seen weapon hits far weaker than phasers drain the shields, albeit not much, and we have seen weapons much stronger than phasers drain the shields. The week weapons don't do nothing, phasers do some, and better weapons aren't one-hit-kills (most of the time). This suggests the buffer energy of the shield is worth several phaser strikes as it must absorb most of the energy from phasers in order for the weaker weapons to actually be a threat, and so there is enough buffer to absorb those weapons which are much more powerful than phasers. So the shields on starships must have a more significant ability to 'absorb' incoming energy compared to their ability to dissipate that energy.

Blasts from a photon torpedo have a much greater power to energy ratio than phasers do while also being slightly more energetic, yet they are still effectively blocked by the shields and phasers still do damage.

Additionally each hit reduces shield effectiveness, suggesting a method more like a pool of energy rather than a stream of energy.

Also in VOY: "Equinox Pt I" the Equinox is described as charging their shields.

[Lucky]

But here we are told exactly what the field is, and what it affects.

O'Brien: "Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface."

It is a mutual induction field which blocks communications signals, scans, and transporters. There is not mention or indication of affected ship systems.

Miles statement says the damping field WOULD block 99% of all transmissions to and from the surface. Miles does not say the damping only effects certain things. There is a huge difference between what Miles says, and what you claim he says.

True, that is normally in weapons range, perhaps not in this case. Or he moved to prevent the satellites from considering him a threat. In any case he was in no way concerned about the damping field or any alleged affects it would have on the runabout, he was clearly thinking about the satellites shooting at him. He didn't even confirm the existence of the mutual induction field until after he moved further out.

Perhaps I missed something, but Miles and Dax don't find out the satellite itself is the threat until after they take action to leave the damping field.

Actually until they tried to read the transponder and found they couldn't, they had no reason to think there was anything funny going on. No noticed affect on the runabout.

That is normal. I can't recall a time a Starfleet vessel encountered a damping field, and didn't notice it until after they were in it.

I was making an orders of magnitude comparison. It doesn't really matter exactly how many gigajoules, or how they are delivered for the purposes of this discussion. The effect of the blast used against the runabout is, by any interpretation, far less potent than any other example of ships weapons throughout Star Trek.

Not really, we already know that a small phaser bank can be powered by a fusion reactor with an output in the single digit gigajoule range. Why should a shuttle class that was later heavily upgraded be relevant?

Or the weapon simply has a high enough yield to overcome shields and armor in that range and it is being advertised for it.

If yield was the most relevant part when going through shields then Quark would have stated the yield rather then talk about the shields. This isn't the only example of yield of the weapon not being the deciding factor against shields. It is repeatedly stated in a very blunt fashion that yield is not the most relavent thing when dealing with shields.

Secondly, why is the weapon rated against only one type of armor? It's good against reactive armor, but what about all the other types of armor in Star Trek?

No, but it starts with Kira stating a buildup in the hundreds of megawatts, increasing to gigawatts. This would at a guess be around 10 GJ. Or one could say Kira was mixing up watts and joules and go with a 1 GJ buildup, it really doesn't matter.

What Kira says would matter if we knew what the total charge was, or if we could be sure what she was reading off was actually relevant.

Why would they not be as they appear? There is no reason to assume that. The baseline assumption is things are as they appear, until you have reason to believe otherwise.

Is that a computer screen you are reading this post on? Things are not always as they appear. Watch-out! It's really a crocodile reading you a poem!

All joking aside, the satellites would quite probably have a reactor as they need to a)Power the damping field, and b)Power their weapons.

The satellites don't need internal power sources when they have the stars and planets as power sources just like the nanites don't need internal power sources. All that energy that gets caught in the damping field has to go somewhere.

If the satellites draw power from things in their surroundings then the buildup Kira reads could also be a drain on the shields. This would also explain why all systems on the runabout lost power when the shields failed. What happened to the runabout was abnormal, and that tends to mean what caused the runabout to crash was abnormal.

It is certainly possible that the satilites were powered by the things from TNG: "Booby Trap", except it isn't because the runabout never experienced a loss in power (until the first one was shot) and they could still move.

Except the runabout magically lost all power in every system at once.

You can't ignore the damping field, but we don't know enough about the damping field to quantify the event.

Those assumptions you mention for my argument seem fairly accurate, and I have no problem with them. For instance, they are the same assumptions I use for Cardassian warships (which we never have any explanation of how they work either). The Cardassians probably use an internal power source, I'll take it one step further and call it a warp core, and they use energy beam weapons to take down the shields of and damage other ships, say, the Defiant.

I see no reason to assume the satellites have internal power sources when many real world satellites often use external power sources, and the similar satellites in TNG:Booby Trap were powered off things that got in range.

Sorry, but I misspoke. I meant: I see no reason to assume an just the energy in the pulse was the most relevant factor in bringing down the shields of the runabout do to the fact we are told that what you fire is at least as important as yield. This is actually similar to real world weapons, if yield was the only relevant factor when it came to real world weapons then we would not have different types of warheads and bombs.

At a guess, probably.

If the fake asteroid in Rise was 200 to 400 meters and shattered, how many fragments could the fake asteroid in Rise be broken into and still be able to cause the effects described without being over the top?

[359]

Miles statement says the damping field WOULD block 99% of all transmissions to and from the surface. Miles does not say the damping only effects certain things. There is a huge difference between what Miles says, and what you claim he says.

No, I claim he said exactly what he said. The damping field blocks 99% of transmissions, which includes things like scans and transporter signals. Then I procede to claim what he didn't say:

There is not mention or indication of affected ship systems.

When talking about the field and what id does, he completely failed to mention anything that directly affects the runabout, therefor there is no reason to assume it did.

Perhaps I missed something, but Miles and Dax don't find out the satellite itself is the threat until after they take action to leave the damping field.

O'Brian figuring out that the satellite was a threat was the reason for taking the runabout to a higher orbit, as stated here.

O'Brien: "The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so"

Dax: "Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout."

O'Brien: "Exactly..."

Notice how he wasn't concerned until the satellites began to scan the runabout.

That is normal. I can't recall a time a Starfleet vessel encountered a damping field, and didn't notice it until after they were in it.

No it is not normal, when in a dampen field that affects the ship they tend to notice. For example in VOY:"The Swarm":

Paris: "Captain, something is wrong."
Janeway: "What do you mean?"
Paris: "It's like there's a drag on the engines."
Kim: "Captain, sensors indicate a resonance particle wave. It's dampening our warp field. We're losing speed."

Neither O'Brian nor Dax, both very intelligent people, noticed anything wrong with the runabout. No power drain, no loss in engines, no drain in shields. The only thing they noticed to be out of place was they were not receiving a signal from the downed runabout's transporter. So the field was clearly not having any effect in the runabout.

Not really, we already know that a small phaser bank can be powered by a fusion reactor with an output in the single digit gigajoule range. Why should a shuttle class that was later heavily upgraded be relevant?

Yes, but would those phasers be capable of taking down a runabout's shields? Would they need to charge like Dukat's phasers in DS9: "Return to Grace"? Would they need to charge even longer? Would they be type-IV phasers like were used on a type-6 shuttle? We do not have an answer for many of these questions. Given an hour to charge they could put off a beam of a couple kilotons, a week about a megaton.

If yield was the most relevant part when going through shields then Quark would have stated the yield rather then talk about the shields. This isn't the only example of yield of the weapon not being the deciding factor against shields. It is repeatedly stated in a very blunt fashion that yield is not the most relavent thing when dealing with shields.

Secondly, why is the weapon rated against only one type of armor? It's good against reactive armor, but what about all the other types of armor in Star Trek?

Quark was advertising the weapon, trying to show it off. Anyone can rattle off a weapon's specifications, but he was trying to show off what it can do so the customer would buy some. This doesn't say anything about it being super effective against shields, or reactive armor. Those were the examples Quark chose in order to impress the would be buyer.

And no, it has never been directly stated or even implied that a weapon's effect is mostly independent of it's yield. Sure there are a few special cases, but out of hundreds of episodes those are only a couple. So they are far, far from being normal.

What Kira says would matter if we knew what the total charge was, or if we could be sure what she was reading off was actually relevant.

1)The exact yield does not matter for this argument, and quite frankly I don't really care what it is. It's an extreme outlier.
2)Of course what she is reading off is relevant, it's all we know about the weapon.

You keep coming up with all these ideas about why it should be super effective, or why the runabout is not in pristine shape, or even why the weapon should go through the shields. And this is all well and good, but, there is nothing in the episode to support anything outside of 'they were hit by a __(low) GJ discharge'. There is nothing to indicate anything unusual is going on.

Except the runabout magically lost all power in every system at once.

Yes, because it was shot.

If a human is shot somewhere critical they tend to "[loose] all power in every system at once."

I see no reason to assume the satellites have internal power sources

And I see no reason to assume they used external power sources.

Sure they could use solar panels, but that isn't to different than a reactor, so it doesn't matter.

If the fake asteroid in Rise was 200 to 400 meters and shattered, how many fragments could the fake asteroid in Rise be broken into and still be able to cause the effects described without being over the top?

I really don't know. The effects are not incredibly precisely stated. Mostly dust clouds and impact craters, some shockwaves as well, but no stated scale of the events. And the asteroid was made of synthetic materials, so it would not burn up in the usual manor. And Tuvok stated that he destroyed most of the debris, except two fragments.

[Lucky]

No, I claim he said exactly what he said. The damping field blocks 99% of transmissions, which includes things like scans and transporter signals. Then I procede to claim what he didn't say:

When talking about the field and what id does, he completely failed to mention anything that directly affects the runabout, therefor there is no reason to assume it did.

O'Brian figuring out that the satellite was a threat was the reason for taking the runabout to a higher orbit, as stated here.

O'Brien: "The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so"

Dax: "Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout."

O'Brien: "Exactly..."

Notice how he wasn't concerned until the satellites began to scan the runabout.

Check the definition of the word TRANSMISSION.

Full Definition of TRANSMISSION
1
:  an act, process, or instance of transmitting <transmission of a nerve impulse across a synapse>
2
:  the passage of radio waves in the space between transmitting and receiving stations; also :  the act or process of transmitting by radio or television
3
:  an assembly of parts including the speed-changing gears and the propeller shaft by which the power is transmitted from an engine to a live axle; also :  the speed-changing gears in such an assembly
4
:  something that is transmitted :  message

Stars transmit energy to planets. The planet/moon is cloaked in night. The only light sources are artificial.

Sensor transmit energy into space, and then record what is reflected. The sensors were barely working by the standards that we normally see in Star Trek.

The shields transmit energy into space.

Miles and Dax got out of the field, but not out of what would be expected to be well within weapon range. They had to have viewed the damping field as the danger.

"Booby Trap"
GALEK SAR (on monitor): We have been stripped of all propulsion, and our weapons are useless. We cannot move and we cannot fight. The ship is being lashed with lethal radiation from the aceton assimilators concealed in the wreckage surrounding the 

PICARD: Aceton assimilators? 

DATA: Aceton assimilators are a primitive generator which can drain power from distant sources. 

RIKER: Generators? 

DATA: It would not be difficult to modify them to convert energy into radiation. 

RIKER: The Menthars hide them in floating debris. An unsuspecting enemy ship flies in. Instant booby trap. 

PICARD: And now we're supplying the devices with the energy to kill us.

No it is not normal, when in a dampen field that affects the ship they tend to notice. For example in VOY:"The Swarm":

Paris: "Captain, something is wrong."
Janeway: "What do you mean?"
Paris: "It's like there's a drag on the engines."
Kim: "Captain, sensors indicate a resonance particle wave. It's dampening our warp field. We're losing speed."

Neither O'Brian nor Dax, both very intelligent people, noticed anything wrong with the runabout. No power drain, no loss in engines, no drain in shields. The only thing they noticed to be out of place was they were not receiving a signal from the downed runabout's transporter. So the field was clearly not having any effect in the runabout.

Your own quote says that Voyager didn't spot the damping field directly, and had already fallen prey to it.

Yes, but would those phasers be capable of taking down a runabout's shields? Would they need to charge like Dukat's phasers in DS9: "Return to Grace"? Would they need to charge even longer? Would they be type-IV phasers like were used on a type-6 shuttle? We do not have an answer for many of these questions. Given an hour to charge they could put off a beam of a couple kilotons, a week about a megaton.

Who knows, small phaser banks have to be good for shooting something, and runabouts are just larger warp capable shuttles. They are stated to have repeatedly up graded the Runabouts less then a year later implying the defenses were found wanting.

We don't know enough about what constitutes a small phaser bank, and what constitutes a type 5 planetary disruptor. We never see them on screen.

Quark was advertising the weapon, trying to show it off. Anyone can rattle off a weapon's specifications, but he was trying to show off what it can do so the customer would buy some. This doesn't say anything about it being super effective against shields, or reactive armor. Those were the examples Quark chose in order to impress the would be buyer.

Which means not all the compilable weapons have the same capabilities.

And no, it has never been directly stated or even implied that a weapon's effect is mostly independent of it's yield. Sure there are a few special cases, but out of hundreds of episodes those are only a couple. So they are far, far from being normal.

Yield is never mentioned implying that it is the weapon, and not the yield that is the issue.

WORF: Still, your weapons were limited and their ship superior. 


KORRIS: Yes. All we had was an ancient battery of Merculite rockets. Our only chance was to trick them into lowering their shields. 


KONMEL: We reduced power and lured them in. 


KORRIS: They suspected nothing. 


KONMEL: Then, when they lowered their shields to beam over a boarding party, we opened fire.

PICARD: Mister Data, what's their offensive potential? 


DATA: Talarian warships are limited to neutral particle weapons, high energy X-ray lasers and merculite rockets. No match for the Enterprise, Captain. 


PICARD: The last thing I want is to be forced into destroying one of their ships.

PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that? 


RIKER; Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert. 


PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well. 


RIKER: May I ask why, sir? 


PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.

As I understand it, there is no upper limit as to how powerful a laser can be, and a rocket's yeild is based on the warthead's size which can vary even if the same explosive is used in two different models.

Conversely

LAFORGE: Another two seconds. Okay, that's enough. 
TAURIK: Sir, I'm a little puzzled. Why are we intentionally damaging the shuttlecraft? 


LAFORGE: We're evaluating hull resiliency. Starfleet requires periodic testing. 


TAURIK: I see. I don't believe I'm familiar with that requirement. 


LAFORGE: Probably because you're not a senior officer. 


TAURIK: If you wish, I could reconfigure the phaser to fire a low intensity burst that would not harm the shuttle's hull. The test procedure would not be affected. 


LAFORGE: It's fine the way it is. Now, give me another burst, about four seconds, right here. 


TAURIK: Do you want me to fire from this position? 


LAFORGE: Actually, why don't you do it from over here. 


TAURIK: That would be consistent. 


LAFORGE: Consistent with what? 


TAURIK: With making it appear that this shuttle had fled an attack. 


LAFORGE: What makes you think that's what we're doing? 


TAURIK: The pattern of fire you have asked for is similar to what might result if the shuttle had fled an attacker while engaging in evasive manoeuvres. 


LAFORGE: It's an amazing coincidence. 


TAURIK: Yes, sir. It is indeed. Shall we proceed with the testing? 


LAFORGE: Yes, Ensign. Thank you.

[Shuttlebay]

(shuttle 15 Magellan, with Onizuku in the foreground) 


SOREN: Is this the one? 


RIKER: This is it. Short-range craft, two twelve hundred fifty millicochrane warp engines. 


SOREN: Looks like microfusion thrusters. 


RIKER: Right. 


SOREN: Armament? 


RIKER: None, usually. This one's been fitted with two type-four phaser emitters. We'll use those to chart the null space. 


SOREN: Chart it? 


RIKER: Mister La Forge wants to get an idea of the size of the pocket. He thinks the rate of energy absorption is linked to its size. 


SOREN: I'm not sure how we go about mapping something we can't see. 


RIKER: Well, that's where the emitters come in. We shoot out a series of photon pulses into the pocket and chart where each one disappears. From that we should get a fairly complete outline. 


SOREN: Let's take a look at the controls.

[Shuttlecraft]

RIKER: Later we'll try a flight simulation. Right now let's do a systems review. I'll talk you through it. 


SOREN: Let me try it. Propulsion system, transfer conduits. Where's the schematic reactor assembly? Oh, there it is. Engine nacelles. There's nothing here that's unfamiliar. Navigational deflector, redundant graviton polarity source generators. 


RIKER: You handle these controls like you grew up in a shuttle. 


SOREN: I did. My parents were pilots. I was flying with them before I could walk. And as soon as I was old enough, I entered flight school. Krite was my instructor. 


RIKER: He had a good student. 


SOREN: He? Commander, there are no he's or she's in a species without gender. 


RIKER: Okay. For two days I've been trying to construct sentences without personal pronouns. Now I give up. What should I use? It? To us, that's rude. 


SOREN: We use a pronoun which is neutral. I do not think there is really a translation. 


RIKER: Then I'll just have to muddle through. So forgive me if a stray he or she slips by, okay? 


SOREN: Well, if that's the systems review, I don't see any problem. What's next? 


RIKER: Lunch.

A phaser rifle is expected to cut through a navigational deflector, and possibly even shields.

1)The exact yield does not matter for this argument, and quite frankly I don't really care what it is. It's an extreme outlier.

An outlier with a few unknowns.

2)Of course what she is reading off is relevant, it's all we know about the weapon.

You are assuming that what Kira was reading had a direct connection to the weapon's yield.

You keep coming up with all these ideas about why it should be super effective, or why the runabout is not in pristine shape, or even why the weapon should go through the shields. And this is all well and good, but, there is nothing in the episode to support anything outside of 'they were hit by a __(low) GJ discharge'. There is nothing to indicate anything unusual is going on.

If you want to keep making unfounded assumption why can't I?

If a human is shot somewhere critical they tend to "[loose] all power in every system at once."

Humans don't explode when they take damage to those sorts of systems while starships in Star Trek do.

And I see no reason to assume they used external power sources.

Sure they could use solar panels, but that isn't to different than a reactor, so it doesn't matter.

Check TNG: Booby Trap for the kind of energy collector I'm thinking of. It uses things like other star ships as the power source.

I really don't know. The effects are not incredibly precisely stated. Mostly dust clouds and impact craters, some shockwaves as well, but no stated scale of the events. And the asteroid was made of synthetic materials, so it would not burn up in the usual manor. And Tuvok stated that he destroyed most of the debris, except two fragments.

This sounds like a pretty big boom to me:
Voyager: Rise:
TUVOK: Substantial cratering, atmospheric shockwaves, and large concentrations of dust and other stratospheric contaminants.

[359]

No, I claim he said exactly what he said. The damping field blocks 99% of transmissions, which includes things like scans and transporter signals. Then I procede to claim what he didn't say:

When talking about the field and what id does, he completely failed to mention anything that directly affects the runabout, therefor there is no reason to assume it did.

O'Brian figuring out that the satellite was a threat was the reason for taking the runabout to a higher orbit, as stated here.

O'Brien: "The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so"

Dax: "Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout."

O'Brien: "Exactly..."

Notice how he wasn't concerned until the satellites began to scan the runabout.

Hay! You took my quote out of context. Put it back! :)

It actually reads:

No, I claim he said exactly what he said. The damping field blocks 99% of transmissions, which includes things like scans and transporter signals. Then I procede to claim what he didn't say:

There is not mention or indication of affected ship systems.

When talking about the field and what id does, he completely failed to mention anything that directly affects the runabout, therefor there is no reason to assume it did.

As in, I say what O'Brian said, then I point out what he didn't say.

Check the definition of the word TRANSMISSION.

Full Definition of TRANSMISSION
1
:  an act, process, or instance of transmitting <transmission of a nerve impulse across a synapse>
2
:  the passage of radio waves in the space between transmitting and receiving stations; also :  the act or process of transmitting by radio or television
3
:  an assembly of parts including the speed-changing gears and the propeller shaft by which the power is transmitted from an engine to a live axle; also :  the speed-changing gears in such an assembly
4
:  something that is transmitted :  message

Stars transmit energy to planets. The planet/moon is cloaked in night. The only light sources are artificial.

Sensor transmit energy into space, and then record what is reflected. The sensors were barely working by the standards that we normally see in Star Trek.

The shields transmit energy into space.

Miles and Dax got out of the field, but not out of what would be expected to be well within weapon range. They had to have viewed the damping field as the danger.

No, they would not have needed to view the field as a danger, they in fact viewed the satellites as a danger.

Dax: "Maybe they [the satellites] had something to do with our missing runabout."
O'Brien: "Exactly..."

Also, we don't know how far they pulled up, they could have moved several hundred thousand km, which would still be in orbit and be out of range of a low-orbit satellite system using some of the greater weapons ranges.

Your own quote says that Voyager didn't spot the damping field directly, and had already fallen prey to it.

It says what I used it to claim, when in a damping
field they tend to notice.

Chain of events from the two episodes:
VOY: enter damping field -> done unto by field -> (officers:) Hay! Somethin' is not working! -> Notice damping field
DS9: notice lack of transmission -> leave area -> Notice damping field.

The difference being that in DS9: "Battle Lines" they never indicated anything to be wrong with the runabout. In every other instance with a damping field, they tend to notice and go 'Hay! Somethin' is not working!'

Who knows, small phaser banks have to be good for shooting something,

Maybe they use them to bull's-eye wamp rats?

Which means not all the compilable weapons have the same capabilities.

Yeah, it means that weapons with a greater yield do more damage.

Yield is never mentioned implying that it is the weapon, and not the yield that is the issue.

So, were you being shot at would you say:
a)OMG! I'm being shot at with a M-16!
b)OMG! I'm being shot at with bullets carrying 6 kJ of K.E. (made up a number here)
c)none of the above.

(Hint: the answer is (a); and definitely not (d), even though there is still a circle on your answer sheet you can fill in.)

So, from this mental exercise we can conclude that you get the general gist of the weapon's danger/power based on what weapon it is.

A phaser rifle is expected to cut through a navigational deflector, and possibly even shields.

No... A phaser rifle is expected to leave similar burns to what would occur through a shuttle's shields when struck by capital ship scale phaser fire.

You are assuming that what Kira was reading had a direct connection to the weapon's yield.

Yep, I do.

That would of course be the default assumption, so as there is nothing to contradict it, it stands.

If you want to keep making unfounded assumption why can't I?

Let's take a look at these "unfounded assumptions" of mine, shall we?

1)The runabout was hit with a _GJ weapon.
____Odd, that's in the episode. Maybe the others are what are unfounded.

But wait, I've run out of things I originally assumed. Of course after your reply I must have come up with some "unfounded assumptions" to counter your argument, right?

1)The runabout was hit with a _GJ weapon.
____Wait... Already did that one.
2)O'Brian was concerned that: satellites - runabout - transponder < good.
____Funny, that seems to be right there in the episode as well.
3)...I think I ran out again. Oh well.

Humans don't explode when they take damage to those sorts of systems while starships in Star Trek do.

So? Humans aren't walking around generating billions of gigawatts, nor do we cary large quantities of antimatter in our pockets.

Check TNG: Booby Trap for the kind of energy collector I'm thinking of. It uses things like other star ships as the power source.

There is no mention of such a thing being used in the episode.