Capitol Ship Firepower

[Mike DiCenso]

You more or less answered your own question there, AFT. There are few examples in Trek as flat out clear as this one from "Masks". Most of the others are against shielded starships, bases, or hits against hulls of whose composition we know little about, or if we do, we cannot know since fictional materials like duranium and tritanium have no known physical properties, we cannot estimate accurately how much firepower was used against them.

Other events are untrustwory, like "Survivors", since a powerful alien being is responsible, and one that can create any false illusion or other thing necessary.

TDiC could be kept as an example, since the weapons used on the Founder's homeworld could have been modfieded into surface attack weapons that had greater firepower than regular ship-to-ship weapons to destroy a planet's crust and mantle, but at the cost of the manueverbility needed to track a starship.

Finally, another point; the firepower of the second-largest of the E-D's arrays does not necessarily scale linearly, thus the largest E-D phaser array could be orders of magnitude greater for all we know. Also, phasers are canonically stated to be much weaker than a full yeild, full spread barrage of torpedeos ("Q Who?" [TNG2], "Nth Degree" [TNG5]).
-Mike

[l33telboi]

This is another one of those things that seem to vary from site to site. I asked once what people thought about the example in "Masks", but the anwer was that this wasn't really a quantifiable event according to them. In their exact words, it was a bit of a "screwy" example. I asked why but no one ever answered.

So does anyone here know anything about this? Why the example might be hard to quantify that is?

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Because the beam terminates once it hits the object at the center of the comet, but the rest of the comet still vaporizes. Also there isn't enough vapor. Other than that the only thing I can think of is that somebody doesn't like the results (E-D can put out around 2 GT/s per large phaser array).

[Jedi Master Spock]

I've seen a grand total of three criticisms of calculations of the "Masks" example in the past, each of which is used in particular to suggest that "Masks" is a hazy or unclear example:

• Critique of the scalings used for "Masks." Scalings of the comet do vary somewhat, and yield calculations are very sensitive to scaling error.
• Citation of dialogue stating the comet's "mantle" is primarily composed of gaseous helium, etc, i.e., not very substantial material rather than the ice that it is usually calculated as. Some variations of this simply state that we don't know the actual thermal properties of the comet.
• Claims that a chain reaction effect is the primary means by which the comet is destroyed; thus, "Masks" measures effective yield against light elements, rather than actual yield, or effective yield against heavy elements.

These have in the past been met with an equal array of counterarguments, respectively:

• Scalings may vary, but all good scalings still leave "Masks" as a strong example.
• The comet in "Masks" is clearly (or most likely to be, it varies slightly from debater to debater) an ordinary comet with ordinary composition. Any "gaseous" helium in an outer layer is really an atmosphere - clear or wispy vapors outside of what has been scaled as the solid comet body.
• Arguments to the effect either that phasers have been demonstrated equally effective against light and heavy elements, or that the appeal to chain reaction is an appeal to ignorance.

The third argument is part of a running dispute on both sides over the precise nature of phasers, and will be found as part of the discussion of any firepower example regarding phasers.

[Mike DiCenso]

Amazing really how Waries are quick to claim "Chain reaction!" for phasers, but get upset if the pro-Trek debators bring up evidence of CR for the Death Stars' superlaser being CR, and insist that the superlaser cannot be anything other than a DET weapon....
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Because the beam terminates once it hits the object at the center of the comet, but the rest of the comet still vaporizes. Also there isn't enough vapor. Other than that the only thing I can think of is that somebody doesn't like the results (E-D can put out around 2 GT/s per large phaser array).

On that note, there is not a substantial amount of vaporization that occurs after the beam terminates, and you can clearly see in the screencaps provided earlier in this thread that some of the ice still remains clinging to the outer surface of the D'Arsay archive's hull.

Also if Warsies insist on claiming CR because we visually do not see enough vapor emanating from the comet, then we can turn that around against them and claim that turbolasers are CR, too, since we see no visible vapor whatsoever in the TESB asteroid destruction scene. The little red bits simply... vanish!
-Mike

[AFT]

You more or less answered your own question there, AFT. There are few examples in Trek as flat out clear as this one from "Masks". Most of the others are against shielded starships, bases, or hits against hulls of whose composition we know little about, or if we do, we cannot know since fictional materials like duranium and tritanium have no known physical properties, we cannot estimate accurately how much firepower was used against them.

Other events are untrustwory, like "Survivors", since a powerful alien being is responsible, and one that can create any false illusion or other thing necessary.

TDiC could be kept as an example, since the weapons used on the Founder's homeworld could have been modfieded into surface attack weapons that had greater firepower than regular ship-to-ship weapons to destroy a planet's crust and mantle, but at the cost of the manueverbility needed to track a starship.

Finally, another point; the firepower of the second-largest of the E-D's arrays does not necessarily scale linearly, thus the largest E-D phaser array could be orders of magnitude greater for all we know. Also, phasers are canonically stated to be much weaker than a full yeild, full spread barrage of torpedeos ("Q Who?" [TNG2], "Nth Degree" [TNG5]).
-Mike

That’s more or less the same conclusión I draw on the issue the first time I saw those calculations and the hot debate over it. But that makes me wonder why even pro-trek debaters reject any calculations that show high firepower, I mean, from pro-wars parties I understand but even ST fans? I think that most ST fans got used to the false concept of ST being “weak” that they cannot accept anything that says otherwise. But that’s just me, or not?

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

I think that Trek many fans think Trek ships are pretty powerful, but they aren't willing to keep repeating themselves to those who won't listen. So if it comes to who is going to back down first the Trekkie usually realizes that any useful debate is impossible and will drop the subject. Some places (like SDN) it just isn't worth debating any more.

[Mike DiCenso]

You more or less answered your own question there, AFT. There are few examples in Trek as flat out clear as this one from "Masks". Most of the others are against shielded starships, bases, or hits against hulls of whose composition we know little about, or if we do, we cannot know since fictional materials like duranium and tritanium have no known physical properties, we cannot estimate accurately how much firepower was used against them.

Other events are untrustwory, like "Survivors", since a powerful alien being is responsible, and one that can create any false illusion or other thing necessary.

TDiC could be kept as an example, since the weapons used on the Founder's homeworld could have been modfieded into surface attack weapons that had greater firepower than regular ship-to-ship weapons to destroy a planet's crust and mantle, but at the cost of the manueverbility needed to track a starship.

Finally, another point; the firepower of the second-largest of the E-D's arrays does not necessarily scale linearly, thus the largest E-D phaser array could be orders of magnitude greater for all we know. Also, phasers are canonically stated to be much weaker than a full yeild, full spread barrage of torpedeos ("Q Who?" [TNG2], "Nth Degree" [TNG5]).
-Mike

That’s more or less the same conclusión I draw on the issue the first time I saw those calculations and the hot debate over it. But that makes me wonder why even pro-trek debaters reject any calculations that show high firepower, I mean, from pro-wars parties I understand but even ST fans? I think that most ST fans got used to the false concept of ST being “weak” that they cannot accept anything that says otherwise. But that’s just me, or not?

As far as I can tell, some of the "ST weapons are weak" notion stems from the devotion some fans in the early 1990's into the Sternbach-Okuda TNG TM. A phaser emitter outputs 5 MW, and theoretically the whole of the largest array was 1.02 GW. The idea of phasers on the E-D actually exceeding this number by at least 6 orders of magnitude just blew right over them. A number of people on RAST actually resisted the canon dialog from "Who Watches the Watchers" [TNG3] and "A Matter of Time" [TNG5] that placed a small phaser bank at 4.2 GW and a miniscule tolerance variance on the second largest of the E-D's arrays at 60 GW.

Same thing with the idea that photon torpedoes could possibly exceed 64 MT. Look some of the threads on Dejanews by typing into the search parameters "Gigawatt Brigade" and the "Terawatt Terrorists" sometime.
-Mike

[GStone]

Well, we could even say that some of the differences between the TM and the dialogue is the difference between equivilent and actual power output. We know that with brute force, it takes a hell of a lot of energy to break someone up, yet it takes only a small amount to transport people and things. I've heard transports using very small amounts, but I can't remember exactly how small it was. The small amount used is able to be technobabbled to get a hell of a lot of mileage out of it.

Edit: Aside from technobabling with ways of phsyics, you can also say it's this way with things, like phaser particles, which appear to be intensity equivilent energy.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Well, we could even say that some of the differences between the TM and the dialogue is the difference between equivilent and actual power output. We know that with brute force, it takes a hell of a lot of energy to break someone up, yet it takes only a small amount to transport people and things. I've heard transports using very small amounts, but I can't remember exactly how small it was. The small amount used is able to be technobabbled to get a hell of a lot of mileage out of it.

Edit: Aside from technobabling with ways of phsyics, you can also say it's this way with things, like phaser particles, which appear to be intensity equivilent energy.

Megajoules in "The Outcast." However, please note that there was little difference in gravitational potential there - as I've noted, if you hold Treknology accountable to conservation of energy, it is necessary that far more energy be used in beaming from the surface of a planet at the least, unless you're actually losing a little mass on the way.

I have it listed as one of the "problematic" episodes for a reason - megajoules really are an insignificant quantity on the scale of space travel, and the shuttle was running out of power altogether in the attempts to transport.

Similar problems arise with the idea that the E-D really only has terawatt power levels, in everything from the visual effects of "Disaster" to the feats of "The Masterpiece Society" to the simple fact of high speed interstellar travel. In order for the E-D to get away with power not in the exawatt range, Star Trek technology would have to be so mind-bogglingly advanced (or mind-bogglingly impossible, to put it more bluntly) that conservation of mass/energy is routinely violated.

[SailorSaturn13]

"Second chances": A transporter can create a second copy of human body (75 kg, ~ 6EJ) without overloading the transporter within a nearly normal beaming.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

So much for the ship not being able to generate 1 TW :)

[GStone]

So much for the ship not being able to generate 1 TW :)

But, it'a canon! Dialogue over visuals, you little runt. :-P

Yes, The Outcast was what I was thinking of.