Underestimating The Requirements For General Order 24?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Agreed, but let's say they exagerated the power of their ship a hundred fold?
That still makes the ship extremely powerful indeed...

I did calculations on my blog a while ago. 8 to 50 gigatons per torpedo. If we go by your "hundredfold" exaggaration, that's 80 to 500 megatons per torpedo; which fits well with 500 magton to 30 gigaton TNG era torpedoes. So, yes, I'd say there was some exaggaration.

Of course no one can seriously take these calculations.

[Picard]

Agreed, but let's say they exagerated the power of their ship a hundred fold?
That still makes the ship extremely powerful indeed...

I did calculations on my blog a while ago. 8 to 50 gigatons per torpedo. If we go by your "hundredfold" exaggaration, that's 80 to 500 megatons per torpedo; which fits well with 500 magton to 30 gigaton TNG era torpedoes. So, yes, I'd say there was some exaggaration.

Of course no one can seriously take these calculations.

Elaborate.

[Lucky]

Quit your lying, SWST. General Order 24 is an order to destroy all life on a planet. Not all cities, not all sentient life, all life period.

Life in Trek is just as silly as it is in SW. So those orders about destroying all life are meaningless, unless we consider very specific forms of like, like organic ones, and yet, with science fantasy being what it is, you just can't know. We've certainly enough oddities in ST to know that the concept of life is quite complicated.

So I consider that the destruction of planets through GO24 has little reason to be any different than SW's BDZ. Eventually, Star Trek having access to weapons of doom in greater quantities, it may allow for the exceptional use of such weapons, but treaties may have largely forbidden them. In fact, G024 may have been entirely forbidden itself.

So basically, G024 may have likely involved the use of exotic tech, the likes which massively abuse subspace and NDF for example.
What happened to the Founders' homeworld may very well be close to what GO24 was supposed to be -- I presume that the attack on this planet by the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order involved the use of protomatter alongside subspace and NDF effects in order to explain how those weapons, particularly potent against a planet, yet in a very odd way, proved barely any better against typical starships... much like in Halo, where the Covenant use very special weapons for ground attacks, perhaps slipspace based.

It seems that during the age of the E-nil, the tensions were very palpable, with the Klingons around, and ships carried secret caches of exotic doomsday devices (like the weird thing used in Obsession).
Such weapons may be totally illegal around the TNG era.

G24 is an order to commit genocide. It will likely be different depending on the group it is meant to kill. In some cases just setting phasers to wide beam kill would be enough.

Why would the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order use proto-matter weapons? Plasma Torpedos and Phono Torpedos should be enough, and far more deadly.

If you want to assume special stupidly power weapons go with weapons we know exist like gravimetric torpedos.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Quit your lying, SWST. General Order 24 is an order to destroy all life on a planet. Not all cities, not all sentient life, all life period.

Life in Trek is just as silly as it is in SW. So those orders about destroying all life are meaningless, unless we consider very specific forms of like, like organic ones, and yet, with science fantasy being what it is, you just can't know. We've certainly enough oddities in ST to know that the concept of life is quite complicated.

So I consider that the destruction of planets through GO24 has little reason to be any different than SW's BDZ. Eventually, Star Trek having access to weapons of doom in greater quantities, it may allow for the exceptional use of such weapons, but treaties may have largely forbidden them. In fact, G024 may have been entirely forbidden itself.

So basically, G024 may have likely involved the use of exotic tech, the likes which massively abuse subspace and NDF for example.
What happened to the Founders' homeworld may very well be close to what GO24 was supposed to be -- I presume that the attack on this planet by the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order involved the use of protomatter alongside subspace and NDF effects in order to explain how those weapons, particularly potent against a planet, yet in a very odd way, proved barely any better against typical starships... much like in Halo, where the Covenant use very special weapons for ground attacks, perhaps slipspace based.

It seems that during the age of the E-nil, the tensions were very palpable, with the Klingons around, and ships carried secret caches of exotic doomsday devices (like the weird thing used in Obsession).
Such weapons may be totally illegal around the TNG era.

G24 is an order to commit genocide. It will likely be different depending on the group it is meant to kill. In some cases just setting phasers to wide beam kill would be enough.

Why would the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order use proto-matter weapons? Plasma Torpedos and Phono Torpedos should be enough, and far more deadly.

If you want to assume special stupidly power weapons go with weapons we know exist like gravimetric torpedos.

If you read my posts on the topic of TDIC, you'll note that I look at a type of weapon which would prove deadly against a planet's structure, without necessarily removing the mass of it to any significant degree - which under regular scientific conditions would be accompanied by an obvious immense release of heat - and which would yet fail to be of any superior value against warships and their shields (Dominion bugships).
Subspace being all too capable against a wide variety of targets, I considered that specific arranged protomatter would be much more logical: it can alter and rearrange matter in such a way that a vast amount of crust could be considered destroyed without removing said crust in any significant fashion. It would explain the capacity to spread over an entire globe very rapidly, which we know is compatible with protomatter-based devices like Genesis: the capacity to spread so fast may not be a property of protomatter though, but as I said, I'm not solely looking at protomatter for an explanation about the fast spreading waves, but also as a rationalization of the capacity to consider, under a strategical view point, the destruction of a crust without the expected visible effects, be they due to NDF or real-world DET. For example, an individual is technically destroyed when he'ss returned to an organic mass left to rot: the nature and function of the mass is dramatically changed, but not removed.
The subspace part of the theory is just some icing, thrown for good measure but not essential. It wasn't even part of my theory but Mith provided some good ideas back then and I considered that, as a form of general agreement, it could be a good addition, considering the displayed properties of certain subspace based weapons.
That said, the mention of plasma weapons is important, and I like it. The Romulans did have very special weapons by Kirk's time, plasma weapons which could track their target, but that is the least of their odd properties. The most interesting one was the ability to extend a field around an entire asteroid and crush it. I'm looking at the stretching capacity in particular, for it would fit admirably well the events of TDIC.

Now, could you please point me to the evidence that specific genocide is a prime goal of the order in question?

[Jedi Master Spock]

Quit your lying, SWST. General Order 24 is an order to destroy all life on a planet. Not all cities, not all sentient life, all life period.

Life in Trek is just as silly as it is in SW. So those orders about destroying all life are meaningless, unless we consider very specific forms of like, like organic ones, and yet, with science fantasy being what it is, you just can't know. We've certainly enough oddities in ST to know that the concept of life is quite complicated.

So I consider that the destruction of planets through GO24 has little reason to be any different than SW's BDZ. Eventually, Star Trek having access to weapons of doom in greater quantities, it may allow for the exceptional use of such weapons, but treaties may have largely forbidden them. In fact, G024 may have been entirely forbidden itself.

So basically, G024 may have likely involved the use of exotic tech, the likes which massively abuse subspace and NDF for example.
What happened to the Founders' homeworld may very well be close to what GO24 was supposed to be -- I presume that the attack on this planet by the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order involved the use of protomatter alongside subspace and NDF effects in order to explain how those weapons, particularly potent against a planet, yet in a very odd way, proved barely any better against typical starships... much like in Halo, where the Covenant use very special weapons for ground attacks, perhaps slipspace based.

It seems that during the age of the E-nil, the tensions were very palpable, with the Klingons around, and ships carried secret caches of exotic doomsday devices (like the weird thing used in Obsession).
Such weapons may be totally illegal around the TNG era.

I'm with you on GO24 having the same requirement as a BDZ, but I don't really think it's necessary to invoke exotic weapons for either. Obviously, it's easier with an exotic weapon - such as the plasma weapon the Klingons used in "The Chase," to bring up an extra example.

In both cases, it's worth noting what the goal is; and the goal, implicitly, is destroying a planetary civilization. That doesn't, as a general rule, call for all that much sheer firepower. Something equivalent to the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and USSR at the height of the Cold War should be able to do a good job of trashing most civilizations, and if you can supply much of that in the form of numerous smaller strikes with energy weapons, the raw energy requirements drop a fair bit from what it is when you use big multi-megaton devices.

Garth issued General Order 24 for Antos IV he wanted to render the Antosians extinct, so that nobody else would be able to learn their secrets.

I will say, regarding the occasional stray survivor or deep base - given the ability of Star Trek ship sensors to pinpoint individual life forms, any people that managed to survive an initial general bombardment could be easily subjected to deep phaser strikes up to several kilometers into the crust.

We know that phasers can drill kilometers into the crust of a planet - this actually implies effective firepower sufficient to carry out General Order 24 conventionally, but it also means that in order to make sure you get deep installations or scattered survivors in deep shelters, you don't need to destroy the entire crust. You just need to selectively target them.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, we nearly get to see such an operation in action in the Mirror Universe:

KIRK: Very good. Thank you, Mister Scott. Kirk out.
(Spock enters the Bridge.)

SPOCK: Planet's rotation is carrying primary target beyond arc of phaser lock.

SULU: Shall I correct orbit to new firing position?

KIRK: No.

SPOCK: Lock on to secondary city.

SULU: Aye, sir.

KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, contact the Halkan council. I wish to talk to them again.

UHURA: Yes, sir.

SPOCK: Captain?

KIRK: This is a new race. They offer other things of value besides dilithium crystals.

SPOCK: But we cannot expect their co-operation. They have refused the Empire. Command procedure dictates that we provide the customary example.

SULU: Secondary target now moving beyond our phaser lock.

KIRK: Put phasers on standby, Mister Sulu.


At no point does anyone order or mention use of any other weapon than phasers, even though the Mirror Enterprise should be equipped with photon torpedoes.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Actually, we nearly get to see such an operation in action in the Mirror Universe:

KIRK: Very good. Thank you, Mister Scott. Kirk out.
(Spock enters the Bridge.)

SPOCK: Planet's rotation is carrying primary target beyond arc of phaser lock.

SULU: Shall I correct orbit to new firing position?

KIRK: No.

SPOCK: Lock on to secondary city.

SULU: Aye, sir.

KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, contact the Halkan council. I wish to talk to them again.

UHURA: Yes, sir.

SPOCK: Captain?

KIRK: This is a new race. They offer other things of value besides dilithium crystals.

SPOCK: But we cannot expect their co-operation. They have refused the Empire. Command procedure dictates that we provide the customary example.

SULU: Secondary target now moving beyond our phaser lock.

KIRK: Put phasers on standby, Mister Sulu.


At no point does anyone order or mention use of any other weapon than phasers, even though the Mirror Enterprise should be equipped with photon torpedoes.
-Mike

Are you saying that because they locked on two cities with their phasers, that they'd achieve a complete GO24 with those same weapons?

[Lucky]

I'm with you on GO24 having the same requirement as a BDZ, but I don't really think it's necessary to invoke exotic weapons for either. Obviously, it's easier with an exotic weapon - such as the plasma weapon the Klingons used in "The Chase," to bring up an extra example.

Talk of Star Wars stays out of this thread. I don't want to have to report you to Jedi Master Spock for trying to cause trouble. We already had to give warnings for that sort of behavior.

[Lucky]

If you read my posts on the topic of TDIC, you'll note that I look at a type of weapon which would prove deadly against a planet's structure, without necessarily removing the mass of it to any significant degree - which under regular scientific conditions would be accompanied by an obvious immense release of heat - and which would yet fail to be of any superior value against warships and their shields (Dominion bugships).
Subspace being all too capable against a wide variety of targets, I considered that specific arranged protomatter would be much more logical: it can alter and rearrange matter in such a way that a vast amount of crust could be considered destroyed without removing said crust in any significant fashion. It would explain the capacity to spread over an entire globe very rapidly, which we know is compatible with protomatter-based devices like Genesis: the capacity to spread so fast may not be a property of protomatter though, but as I said, I'm not solely looking at protomatter for an explanation about the fast spreading waves, but also as a rationalization of the capacity to consider, under a strategical view point, the destruction of a crust without the expected visible effects, be they due to NDF or real-world DET. For example, an individual is technically destroyed when he'ss returned to an organic mass left to rot: the nature and function of the mass is dramatically changed, but not removed.
The subspace part of the theory is just some icing, thrown for good measure but not essential. It wasn't even part of my theory but Mith provided some good ideas back then and I considered that, as a form of general agreement, it could be a good addition, considering the displayed properties of certain subspace based weapons.

What makes you think the Tal Shiar and Obsidian order were using weapons that are not effective against ships? The Dominion does not really care about losses, the bug fighters had weapons that ignored shields, they out numbered the Cardassians and Romulans, and the Cardassian and Romulan ships seem to have very limited firing arcs. It only makes sense the Romulan/Cardassian fleet would die quickly.

_____
You do realize we can't actual see the planets surface in TDIC? The planet was covered in some sort of unknown liquid meant to look like Founder. We would have no way of seeing the damage to the crust. It's like blowing up a bomb under and ocean of maple syrup or something like that.
_____
Your theory involving proto-matter seems like it ignores the fact that in order to reach the mantle they need to remove the crust. Proto-matter might be extremely dangerous, but it failed to put Nelix down for good
_____
I'm pretty sure we see standard weapons cause absurdly fast shock waves in other episodes

[Bridge]

DATA: The satellite's trajectory is continuing to deteriorate, Captain. This orbit will put it within five hundred kilometres of the planet surface. 

GARIN [on viewscreen]: We're predicting the atmospheric drag will bring it down on the next orbit. 

SCIENTIST [on viewscreen]: Have you been able to find any explanation for this? 

DATA: No, Doctor. It is a most unusual phenomenon. 

PICARD: Won't the moon disintegrate prior to impact? 

SCIENTIST [on viewscreen]: No, it has a ferrous crystalline structure and it will be able to withstand tidal forces, Captain 

RIKER: Could we blow it into pieces? 

DATA: The total mass of the moon would remain the same, Commander, and the impact of thousands of fragments would spread destruction over an even wider area. 

PICARD: How long before impact? 

DATA: Twenty nine hours, sir. Projecting it somewhere on the western continent. That would destroy an area eight hundred kilometres in radius. 

SCIENTIST [on viewscreen]: That damage would be insignificant, Captain, compared to the seismic repercussions massive landquakes, and tsunami. 

GARIN [on viewscreen]: The force would raise a cloud of dust around the planet, leading to a significant temperature reduction. We could be looking at our own ice age. 

PICARD: Mister La Forge, is there any way that the Enterprise could coax that satellite

Phasers and Photon Torpedos leave the mass of an object.

That said, the mention of plasma weapons is important, and I like it. The Romulans did have very special weapons by Kirk's time, plasma weapons which could track their target, but that is the least of their odd properties. The most interesting one was the ability to extend a field around an entire asteroid and crush it. I'm looking at the stretching capacity in particular, for it would fit admirably well the events of TDIC.

Those are Plasma Torpedos. They got scaled down it seems, and became a standard Romulan weapon by the time of TDIC if not earlier.

Now, could you please point me to the evidence that specific genocide is a prime goal of the order in question?

The quote you want is in the OP

KIRK: All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.

...

SCOTT: Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the USS Enterprise.

[Council Room]

SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes

[Bridge]

SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.

[Council Room]

SCOTT: You have that long to surrender your hostages.

That sounds like genocide to me.

[Mike DiCenso]

Are you saying that because they locked on two cities with their phasers, that they'd achieve a complete GO24 with those same weapons?

Why not? The goal as stated is clear enough; to exterminate the Halkans for refusing to cooperate with the Terran Empire:

SPOCK: Status of mission, Captain?

KIRK: No change.

SPOCK: Standard procedure, Captain? (Kirk nods) Mister Sulu, you will programme
phaser barrage on Halkan cities.

SULU [OC]: Yes, Mister Spock.

SPOCK: Their military capability, Captain?

KIRK: None.

SPOCK: Regrettable that this society has chosen suicide. Mister Kyle, you were instructed to compensate during the ion storm.

The standard procedure is to wipe out all resistance as an example to others, and only phasers mentioned for the barrage. Later we have this:

KIRK: Scotty, can you buy me some time. Get below and short out the main phaser couplings. They'll think the storm blew the stand-by circuits

Again, phaser use only, or they'd have to find an excuse to take out the photon torpedoes as well. Then, finally this:

SULU: Mister Chekov, phaser setting for planetary target A.

CHEKOV: Co-ordinates seven one two stroke four, Mister Sulu.

SULU: Port batteries locked.

(Uhura enters, and goes to her station. Sulu goes over to her. He has a very nasty scar down his face.)

SULU: Still no interest, Uhura? Hmm? I could change your mind.
UHURA: You are away from your post, Mister.

SULU: Is the captain here? Is Spock here? When the cat's away

(She slaps his hand away, then Kirk enters. Everyone salutes him.)

KIRK: Communications status.

UHURA: No storm damage, sir. All stations report normal. (quietly)
You're ordered to annihilate the Halkans unless they comply. No alternative.

SULU: Phasers Locked on target A, Captain. Approaching optimum range. Commence fire, Captain? Captain?

KIRK: Stand by, Mister Sulu.

Again, only phasers being programmed for the barrage, and annhilation of the Halkans is the goal.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I'm with you on GO24 having the same requirement as a BDZ, but I don't really think it's necessary to invoke exotic weapons for either. Obviously, it's easier with an exotic weapon - such as the plasma weapon the Klingons used in "The Chase," to bring up an extra example.

Talk of Star Wars stays out of this thread. I don't want to have to report you to Jedi Master Spock for trying to cause trouble. We already had to give warnings for that sort of behavior.

Wow, did you read who it was that made the post before posting this?

:)

[mojo]

I'm with you on GO24 having the same requirement as a BDZ, but I don't really think it's necessary to invoke exotic weapons for either. Obviously, it's easier with an exotic weapon - such as the plasma weapon the Klingons used in "The Chase," to bring up an extra example.

Talk of Star Wars stays out of this thread. I don't want to have to report you to Jedi Master Spock for trying to cause trouble. We already had to give warnings for that sort of behavior.

GOOD LORD!
i nominate lucky for replacement moderator on the grounds that LITERALLY NOTHING can stop him from enforcing the rules! how do you even move around with balls that big?!

[Mr. Oragahn]

Are you saying that because they locked on two cities with their phasers, that they'd achieve a complete GO24 with those same weapons?

Why not? The goal as stated is clear enough; to exterminate the Halkans for refusing to cooperate with the Terran Empire:

SPOCK: Status of mission, Captain?

KIRK: No change.

SPOCK: Standard procedure, Captain? (Kirk nods) Mister Sulu, you will programme
phaser barrage on Halkan cities.

SULU [OC]: Yes, Mister Spock.

SPOCK: Their military capability, Captain?

KIRK: None.

SPOCK: Regrettable that this society has chosen suicide. Mister Kyle, you were instructed to compensate during the ion storm.

The standard procedure is to wipe out all resistance as an example to others, and only phasers mentioned for the barrage. Later we have this:

KIRK: Scotty, can you buy me some time. Get below and short out the main phaser couplings. They'll think the storm blew the stand-by circuits

Again, phaser use only, or they'd have to find an excuse to take out the photon torpedoes as well. Then, finally this:

SULU: Mister Chekov, phaser setting for planetary target A.

CHEKOV: Co-ordinates seven one two stroke four, Mister Sulu.

SULU: Port batteries locked.

(Uhura enters, and goes to her station. Sulu goes over to her. He has a very nasty scar down his face.)

SULU: Still no interest, Uhura? Hmm? I could change your mind.
UHURA: You are away from your post, Mister.

SULU: Is the captain here? Is Spock here? When the cat's away

(She slaps his hand away, then Kirk enters. Everyone salutes him.)

KIRK: Communications status.

UHURA: No storm damage, sir. All stations report normal. (quietly)
You're ordered to annihilate the Halkans unless they comply. No alternative.

SULU: Phasers Locked on target A, Captain. Approaching optimum range. Commence fire, Captain? Captain?

KIRK: Stand by, Mister Sulu.

Again, only phasers being programmed for the barrage, and annhilation of the Halkans is the goal.
-Mike

Why not? They only targeted two cities thus far, or perhaps a bit more. That's not enough.

[KSW]

And that's just TOS. We can throw in TNG, DS9, and VOY into the mix as well, too. For example Garak's line from DS9's "Broken Link":

WORF: You were trying to override the launch controls for the quantum torpedoes.

GARAK: I was hoping to gain control of the phasers as well. I just hadn't got around to it yet. Don't you see? We have an opportunity here. A chance to end the Dominion threat once and for all. We have enough firepower on this ship to turn that planet into a smoking cinder. Personally, I think that would be a very good thing.

I think it's safe to say that Kirk and Scotty were not exaggerating all that much given the evidence.
-Mike

The real display was in TNG's "The Die is Cast, Pt. II" when the Cardassian/Romulan fleet opens up on the Founders' home planet.
That's canonical proof, not hearsay.

[Lucky]

And that's just TOS. We can throw in TNG, DS9, and VOY into the mix as well, too. For example Garak's line from DS9's "Broken Link":

WORF: You were trying to override the launch controls for the quantum torpedoes.

GARAK: I was hoping to gain control of the phasers as well. I just hadn't got around to it yet. Don't you see? We have an opportunity here. A chance to end the Dominion threat once and for all. We have enough firepower on this ship to turn that planet into a smoking cinder. Personally, I think that would be a very good thing.

I think it's safe to say that Kirk and Scotty were not exaggerating all that much given the evidence.
-Mike

The real display was in TNG's "The Die is Cast, Pt. II" when the Cardassian/Romulan fleet opens up on the Founders' home planet.
That's canonical proof, not hearsay.

There is the episode where the Enterprise-D carefully drills about half way through a planet in about 19 or 20 seconds.