Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

[Gandalf]

I'd also like to note: Why would they need to draw fire away from the cruisers if fighters can't hurt them?

Just because Lando is a General doesn't mean that he actually knows that much about the capability of Alliance cruisers. He was a smuggler/con-man/administrator of Cloud City not an expert on military hardware. In fact he spent the year previous to the attack looking for Han/hanging out in Jabba's palace. Hardly the enviroment for studying up on military hardware. He got the job leading the fighters on the strength of Solo's recommendation not based on his military knowledge.

[Dragoon]

Maybe they were just leading the Alliance pilots on a merry chase through their fleet while they whittled down their numbers.

Or maybe they were attacking the frigate.

Just because the events happen at the same time doesn't mean they can be displayed at the same time on the screen.

So, why not have the officer say, "The shields are down" and then show the A-Wings blowing the dome?

[Dragoon]

I'd also like to note: Why would they need to draw fire away from the cruisers if fighters can't hurt them?

Just because Lando is a General doesn't mean that he actually knows that much about the capability of Alliance cruisers. He was a smuggler/con-man/administrator of Cloud City not an expert on military hardware. In fact he spent the year previous to the attack looking for Han/hanging out in Jabba's palace. Hardly the enviroment for studying up on military hardware. He got the job leading the fighters on the strength of Solo's recommendation not based on his military knowledge.

Oh, come on. Now you're just reaching. One would assume that Lando would be properly briefed by the Alliance on the capabilities of the ships he would be fighting alongside.

[Dragoon]

I just found a scene that proves that fighters can penetrate Cap ship shields.

Following the scen where Darth Vader walks down the stairs, it switches to a TIE fighter being blown away, with a Star Destroyer's superstructure in the background. If you watch it frame by frame, you can see an X-Wing come in on a strafing run. His bolts hit the Star Destroyer, there is a large glare as if the shields are redistributing the enrgy, then collapse and a small portion of the superstructure goes up in flames.

A few frames after that, soem sort of projectile comes in and impacts near the left sensor dome, followed by an A-Wing.

[Gandalf]

Or maybe they were attacking the frigate.

Which we never saw.

So, why not have the officer say, "The shields are down" and then show the A-Wings blowing the dome?

I didn't edit the film so I couldn't tell you. There is a quote floating around the internet that in effect has George Lucas saying to the editor of ESB "your ruining my movie", perhaps there were similar issue here.

[Gandalf]

Oh, come on. Now you're just reaching. One would assume that Lando would be properly briefed by the Alliance on the capabilities of the ships he would be fighting alongside.

Or he just couldn't wrap his head around the numbers being thrown around.

[Gandalf]

I just found a scene that proves that fighters can penetrate Cap ship shields.

Following the scen where Darth Vader walks down the stairs, it switches to a TIE fighter being blown away, with a Star Destroyer's superstructure in the background. If you watch it frame by frame, you can see an X-Wing come in on a strafing run. His bolts hit the Star Destroyer, there is a large glare as if the shields are redistributing the enrgy, then collapse and a small portion of the superstructure goes up in flames.

A few frames after that, soem sort of projectile comes in and impacts near the left sensor dome, followed by an A-Wing.

Screenshots?

[Jedi Master Spock]

I don't find the appeal to Lando's incompetence particularly convincing. It was Lando who was the first to figure out that Endor was a trap; it was Lando who came up with the idea to close to knife-fighting range. When Ackbar questioned this idea, Lando's reply doesn't suggest ignorance:

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

It is also Lando who knows his own concussion missiles are strong enough to take out the Death Star's main reactor even when Wedge's proton torpedos are insufficient.

I think it's fairly clear from the battle in ROTJ alone that General Calrissian knows the capabilities of Rebellion and Imperial military hardware, and has a grasp of military strategy. I would say he is established in the canon as an expert.

[Gandalf]

I don't find the appeal to Lando's incompetence particularly convincing. It was Lando who was the first to figure out that Endor was a trap; it was Lando who came up with the idea to close to knife-fighting range. When Ackbar questioned this idea, Lando's reply doesn't suggest ignorance:

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

Actually that whole scene reveals both Lando's and Ackbars ignorance of military tactics both past and present. During the opening battle in ROTS, Republic and CIS forces are observed fighting at "knife range", in fact there is a shot of a Venator boarding a Trade Federation Battleship. Clearly these tactics had existed previously and a General and an Admiral should have been aware of there use and trained in them.

It is also Lando who knows his own concussion missiles are strong enough to take out the Death Star's main reactor even when Wedge's proton torpedos are insufficient.

I see nothing out of the ordinary there, it's well known that concussion missiles are designed to take out armoured targets while proton torpedos are designed for unarmoured targets. Lando could simply have been briefed on what weapons would be most useful against the Death Star's reactor prior to the attack but not have had time for a general work up of Alliance capabilities.

I think it's fairly clear from the battle in ROTJ alone that General Calrissian knows the capabilities of Rebellion and Imperial military hardware, and has a grasp of military strategy. I would say he is established in the canon as an expert.

I'd say he knows as much as any amateur.

[Mike DiCenso]

In addition, we see later on where two X-wings take out the dome of an ISD (one of the X-wings is destroyed the explosion).
-Mike

A-Wings, I believe. And they do it with their primary laser cannons. Either the sensor domes are incredibly underarmored or the ICS is wrong about the fighter energy outputs. After all, there was no sign of prior damage to the domes themselves.


EDIT: I just watched the battle scene again and I found the scene you were talking about. My mistake.

Interesting to note that the cruisers are busy engaging other Star destroyers and the ones the X-Wings attack doesn't seem to have been engaged by any capital ships yet.

It's hard to tell with the X-wings, if the Alliance capital ships have engaged or not. However we do not see weapons fire pouring down onto that area of the ISD, nor the SSD later on in those areas the fighters attack.
-Mike

[Gandalf]

It's hard to tell with the X-wings, if the Alliance capital ships have engaged or not. However we do not see weapons fire pouring down onto that area of the ISD, nor the SSD later on in those areas the fighters attack.
-Mike

No but we do have Ackbars specific order to "concentrate all fire on that Super-Star Destroyer."

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:
They are clearly concerned about the TIEs heading for the Medical Frigate. If fighters weren't a threat at all, then they wouldn't need to worry at all about it. Also note from Lando's dialog that the star destroyers are not attacking, and therefore are not giving any fire support to the fighters at this point in time.

Gandalf wrote:

All that means is that they were on a course for the Medical Frigate. What the hell are the TIE's going to do to it? Peck away at the shields with their puny guns when the shields can instantly regenerate? At no time do we see a fighter fire on an Alliance capital ship. They were obviously there only to harrass the Alliance fighters.

Why would they be so concered over it to the point that they (the Rebel pilots) would even bother going after it, if the Medical Frigate shields were so awesome?

In addition, we see later on where two X-wings take out the dome of an ISD (one of the X-wings is destroyed the explosion).
-Mike

Gandalf wrote:
Whose shields were obviously downed by capital ship bombardment.

As pointed out earlier, it was too early in the fight necessarily for significant capital ship bombardment damage to occur.
-Mike

[Gandalf]

Why would they be so concered over it to the point that they (the Rebel pilots) would even bother going after it, if the Medical Frigate shields were so awesome?

Because the job of a fighter pilot is to kill other fighters and they still posed a threat to Alliance fighters.

As pointed out earlier, it was too early in the fight necessarily for significant capital ship bombardment damage to occur.
-Mike

That's open to interpretation. We know that Alliance ships mount heavy turbolasers which are capable of downing the shields of the Executor in short order. It's not hard to figure out that they could have bombarded this Stardestroter with their HTL's until the shields went down. The Rebel fleet included at least two Home One type vessels and up to thirteen starcruisers.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'd also like to note: Why would they need to draw fire away from the cruisers if fighters can't hurt them?

Just because Lando is a General doesn't mean that he actually knows that much about the capability of Alliance cruisers. He was a smuggler/con-man/administrator of Cloud City not an expert on military hardware. In fact he spent the year previous to the attack looking for Han/hanging out in Jabba's palace. Hardly the enviroment for studying up on military hardware. He got the job leading the fighters on the strength of Solo's recommendation not based on his military knowledge.

LANDO
Oh, well, someone must have told them about
my little maneuver at the battle of Taanab.

Wasn't just because of Han's say-so. Lando had to have done some impressive stuff.

On the subject of how long Lando spent at Jabba's place, this all we get in the movie:

THREEPIO
Of course I'm worried. And you should be,
too. Lando Calrissian and poor Chewbacca
never returned from this awful place.

Artoo whistles timidly.

THREEPIO
Don't be so sure. If I told you half the
things I've heard about this Jabba the Hutt,
You'd probably short-circuit.


Is there a passage maybe in the novelization that states Lando and Chewie had spent a year on Tatooine?
-Mike

[Gandalf]

LANDO
Oh, well, someone must have told them about
my little maneuver at the battle of Taanab.

Wasn't just because of Han's say-so. Lando had to have done some impressive stuff.

Battle of Taanab, hardly something to offer a General's commision on. Nor did it show a particular grasp of military tactics seeing as he employed a trick to win the day.

On the subject of how long Lando spent at Jabba's place, this all we get in the movie:

THREEPIO
Of course I'm worried. And you should be,
too. Lando Calrissian and poor Chewbacca
never returned from this awful place.

Artoo whistles timidly.

THREEPIO
Don't be so sure. If I told you half the
things I've heard about this Jabba the Hutt,
You'd probably short-circuit.


Is there a passage maybe in the novelization that states Lando and Chewie had spent a year on Tatooine?
-Mike

I said he spent a year looking for Han and hanging out at the palace not that he spent the whole year there.