Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[Praeothmin]

This does not mean in any way that ST ships are magically immune to SW weapons.
There a limits to what shields can do.
The man in the example you provided did impact the shield.
Had he been bigger, or a car instead, the shield could have been disrupted even though it still operated in the same way as described.
Also, there is indeed some sort of "momentum", or force, carried over by weapons or physical impacts as every hit yields some shaking in the affected vessel, even when shields hold.
And as stated, in this case, Wesley demonstrated he could use a tractor beam as a shield with some modifications, this doesn't mean standard shields are indeed made the same way...

[KirkSkyWalker]

This does not mean in any way that ST ships are magically immune to SW weapons.
There a limits to what shields can do.
The man in the example you provided did impact the shield.
Had he been bigger, or a car instead, the shield could have been disrupted even though it still operated in the same way as described.
Also, there is indeed some sort of "momentum", or force, carried over by weapons or physical impacts as every hit yields some shaking in the affected vessel, even when shields hold.
And as stated, in this case, Wesley demonstrated he could use a tractor beam as a shield with some modifications, this doesn't mean standard shields are indeed made the same way...

You're citing subspace-weaponry impacting the shields, so it's non-sequitur in comparison to SW's EM/plasma tech.
And even then it's a moot-point; in "Journey to Babel," the Orion ship buzzes the Enterprise at high warp, so fast that the E's phasers can't hit it-- even though phasers can move fast enough. In comparison, SW's weapons can't possibly, being either lightspeed or STL.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This does not mean in any way that ST ships are magically immune to SW weapons.
There a limits to what shields can do.
The man in the example you provided did impact the shield.
Had he been bigger, or a car instead, the shield could have been disrupted even though it still operated in the same way as described.
Also, there is indeed some sort of "momentum", or force, carried over by weapons or physical impacts as every hit yields some shaking in the affected vessel, even when shields hold.
And as stated, in this case, Wesley demonstrated he could use a tractor beam as a shield with some modifications, this doesn't mean standard shields are indeed made the same way...

You're citing subspace-weaponry impacting the shields, so it's non-sequitur in comparison to SW's EM/plasma tech.
And even then it's a moot-point; in "Journey to Babel," the Orion ship buzzes the Enterprise at high warp, so fast that the E's phasers can't hit it-- even though phasers can move fast enough. In comparison, SW's weapons can't possibly, being either lightspeed or STL.

There's no surprise that phasers couldn't hit a ship moving at warp, as phasers are STL particle weapons.

[KirkSkyWalker]

There's no surprise that phasers couldn't hit a ship moving at warp, as phasers are STL particle weapons.

Only hand-phasers.
Now you're confusing hand-phasers with ship's phasers, which move much faster than warp.

I can't believe you're claiming that the Orion ship would fire at the Enterprise using weapons that moved much slower than itself; it gives new meaning to the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot!"

[Mr. Oragahn]

There's no surprise that phasers couldn't hit a ship moving at warp, as phasers are STL particle weapons.

Only hand-phasers.
Now you're confusing hand-phasers with ship's phasers, which move much faster than warp.

The hell. We can see phasers move through space 99% of the time.
How are you going to claim that they're FTL weapons?

I can't believe you're claiming that the Orion ship would fire at the Enterprise using weapons that moved much slower than itself; it gives new meaning to the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot!"

And why don't you follow your own claim, that matter leaving the warp field would actually revert to its normal sublight speed when returning to "n-space"?
Such a transition would surely destroy a device or a craft, but would destroy particles?

[KirkSkyWalker]

There's no surprise that phasers couldn't hit a ship moving at warp, as phasers are STL particle weapons.

Only hand-phasers.
Now you're confusing hand-phasers with ship's phasers, which move much faster than warp.

The hell. We can see phasers move through space 99% of the time.
How are you going to claim that they're FTL weapons?

Same way I can claim that the Concord jet is super-sonic when I can hear it.

I can't believe you're claiming that the Orion ship would fire at the Enterprise using weapons that moved much slower than itself; it gives new meaning to the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot!"

And why don't you follow your own claim, that matter leaving the warp field would actually revert to its normal sublight speed when returning to "n-space"?

Because the ship is moving faster than that relative to N-space.

Such a transition would surely destroy a device or a craft, but would destroy particles?
It's a moot point, since the Orion ship had standard phasers which are FTL.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Same way I can claim that the Concord jet is super-sonic when I can hear it.

Not really.
And present proof that they're FTL weapons.

And why don't you follow your own claim, that matter leaving the warp field would actually revert to its normal sublight speed when returning to "n-space"?

Because the ship is moving faster than that relative to N-space.

Yes, at warp. So when stuff comes out of it reverts to sublight speeds in that "n-space" of yours.

Such a transition would surely destroy a device or a craft, but would destroy particles?

It's a moot point, since the Orion ship had standard phasers which are FTL.

No. It's just a ship that shoots while at warp and the phasers out of warp hit a target flying at STL. It surely requires a shit lot of coordination and time-dilation calculations, but beyond that you're not going to need FTL beam weapons.

Not to say that it wouldn't be very honest to establish a rule from what appears to be nothing more than an outlier of another age.

[Praeothmin]

KirkSkywalker, you will of course provide proof or evidence that Ship Phasers, aside from the power difference, are not identical to hand Phasers.
You will also provide proof that ship Phasers are FTL when in STL combat we can, by watching the shows in slow-mo, see the beam propagating towards other ships.

You will provide proof that your supersonic plane anaolgy is correct when:
A- Your hear the plane after it passed over you when supersonic,
while
B- We see the beam propagating towards the target in the shows and movies.

so it's non-sequitur in comparison to SW's EM/plasma tech.

You mean like the Plasma Torpedo in TOS that hit the E-nil's shields?

[KirkSkyWalker]

Same way I can claim that the Concord jet is super-sonic when I can hear it.

Not really.

Yes, really; it moves faster than sound, but you can hear it, just like phasers move faster than light but you can see them. Obviously they're both capable of producing a medium that travels slower than they do.

And present proof that they're FTL weapons.

"Jouney to Babel" proves it, otherwise the beams would be too short in duration to do any damage.
If you had STL phasers and fired forward at any angle, you'd hit your own ship.
The only way to avoid hitting your own ship while warp-strafing, would be to fire either perfectly perpendicular to your path of flight, or backward. But at warp speed, a perpendicular STL beam would render too brief of an impact to do any damage due to the speed of your flight; likewise if you fired backwards, then an STL your beam would be too stretched-out to deliver enough energy. Likewise, two ships moving at warp could never hit each other.
You're presenting an explanation that not only is extremely convoluted in comparison to the simple fact that phasers are FTL, but is simply couldn't work. So not only is the simpler explanation more likely: it's the only one possible.

Not to say that it wouldn't be very honest to establish a rule from what appears to be nothing more than an outlier of another age.

It's called CANON.

[KirkSkyWalker]

KirkSkywalker, you will of course provide proof or evidence that Ship Phasers, aside from the power difference, are not identical to hand Phasers.
You will also provide proof that ship Phasers are FTL when in STL combat we can, by watching the shows in slow-mo, see the beam propagating towards other ships.

Again, just because you can hear the Concord, doesn't mean it moves slower than the speed of sound. Rather, phasers are subspace-distortion weapons, and so simply they create light as part of their propogation through normal space-- just like the Concord produces sound, despite being an SST jet.

As for hand-phasers, they visibly move much slower than ship's phasers, as do their effects; in "Return of the Archons," the crew stuns the attacking mob with phasers; both the phaser-beams and their stunning-effects visibly move at about 200 feet/second, tops.
In "A Piece of the Action," Scotty fires the ship's stun-phasers from orbit on Kirk's command, and it stuns everyone immediately; if the phasers moved at that same speed of 200fps, it would take quite a bit longer.

(This is to show that speed doesn't vary with seting, but with ship-vs-hand phaser.

[KirkSkyWalker]

KirkSkywalker, you will of course provide proof or evidence that Ship Phasers, aside from the power difference, are not identical to hand Phasers.
You will also provide proof that ship Phasers are FTL when in STL combat we can, by watching the shows in slow-mo, see the beam propagating towards other ships.

You will provide proof that your supersonic plane anaolgy is correct when:
A- Your hear the plane after it passed over you when supersonic,
while
B- We see the beam propagating towards the target in the shows and movies.

Much faster than hand-phaser beams, too. How do you know it doesn't hit the target before you see the beam?

so it's non-sequitur in comparison to SW's EM/plasma tech.

You mean like the Plasma Torpedo in TOS that hit the E-nil's shields?

Yes, the plasma torpedo that also moved at Warp 9 and tracked the Enterprise's movements so it couldn't move out of the way; so AGAIN, it wasn't just ordinary plasma like from a Star Wars blaster, but had some type of sustaining warp-field and advanced guidance-system.
FYI the episode was called "Balance of Terror."

[Praeothmin]

phasers are subspace-distortion weapons

And this is mentioned where?

(This is to show that speed doesn't vary with seting, but with ship-vs-hand phaser.

Which still doesn't prove FTL Phasers.
Being faster then 200feet/second is nowhere near c...

How do you know it doesn't hit the target before you see the beam?

So now Phasers behave like Turbolasers?
They have an invisible "guidance" ray that shapes and control the Phaser's plasma particles, and this invisible guide moves at or greater then c?
You will, of course, provide such evidence...

so AGAIN, it wasn't just ordinary plasma like from a Star Wars blaster

Yes, of course, you mean the Plasma that isn't a blob, but a coherent bolt propagating towards a target without loss of form or speed, or even without any obvious effects from gravity on it...
Again, even SW Turbolasers are anything BUT "ordinary plasma"...

[Mike DiCenso]

And present proof that they're FTL weapons.

"Jouney to Babel" proves it, otherwise the beams would be too short in duration to do any damage.
If you had STL phasers and fired forward at any angle, you'd hit your own ship.
The only way to avoid hitting your own ship while warp-strafing, would be to fire either perfectly perpendicular to your path of flight, or backward. But at warp speed, a perpendicular STL beam would render too brief of an impact to do any damage due to the speed of your flight; likewise if you fired backwards, then an STL your beam would be too stretched-out to deliver enough energy. Likewise, two ships moving at warp could never hit each other.

Actually, here KSW might have something. "Journey to Babel" does not show the Orion ship firing, so we don't know really what direction it is shooting when it did it's strafing run on the Enterprise, which was still at warp, though it could not manage to reach the warp 10 of the raider.

However in "Elaan of Troyius", we see the warp speed Klingon D-7 fire disruptors at the E-1701 with the disruptor bolts firing with the direction of travel in front of the ship from weapons monted on the front of the warp nacelles. We see something similar in the warp speed combat that occured much later in VOY, DS9, and ST:ENT which indicates strongly that the beams must somehow be capable of FTL travel that out-accelerated the ship it was being fired from.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Actually, here KSW might have something. "Journey to Babel" does not show the Orion ship firing, so we don't know really what direction it is shooting when it did it's strafing run on the Enterprise, which was still at warp, though it could not manage to reach the warp 10 of the raider.

However in "Elaan of Troyius", we see the warp speed Klingon D-7 fire disruptors at the E-1701 with the disruptor bolts firing with the direction of travel in front of the ship from weapons monted on the front of the warp nacelles. We see something similar in the warp speed combat that occured much later in VOY, DS9, and ST:ENT which indicates strongly that the beams must somehow be capable of FTL travel that out-accelerated the ship it was being fired from.
-Mike

When have we seen ships out-of-Warp fire Phasers at ships going at Warp?
We've seen Phasers being fired at Warp, and in many angles, which, since we can see ships at Warp when the view is inside the "Warp stream", and since we know subspace is a sub-layer of space (from the TNG episode where subspace aliens kidnap the crew), then we can infer that going to Warp actually has the ship immersed in subspace, including the energy manifestation of its weapons.

But again, have we actually seen STL ships firing Phasers at FTL?

[KirkSkyWalker]

Well we know that the Romulan Plasma Weapon moved faster than Warp 9, so it would be kind of silly for the Enterprise to beat the Romulan ship wth phasers that moved at STL speeds!

Seriously, just the idea of having weapons that move at 1/1000 your ship-speed, is denied by the very statement itself; you'd be far better off just throwing rocks out the window as you passd by. Meanwhile, everyting else-- deflectors, sensors, transporters, communications etc. move much, much FTL, and it's all based on the same technology.

As or STL ships firing phasers at FTL: if you mean the ships are moving at sublight speed, then in "Journey to Babel" the Enterprise wasn't moving when it fired on the Orion ship, so obviously the phasers were moving FTL from a STL ship.

Likewise, why would ship-speed impact phaser-speed? If anything, an STL ship's phasers would move faster than a ship moving at FTL, since the STL ship would be diverting power to the phasers instead of the warp-drive.