Star Wars Cloaking Devices

[Praeothmin]

Oh, now the Dominion has all the technology Starfleet had?

And were they really that desperate?

Sisko had to plea with the prohpets to help, or else the Federation was done.
Betazed was taken, Earth, the very core of the Federation, was attacked...
How much more desperate did they need to get?

[Who is like God arbour]

They had at least the technology to let a star go super nova and destroy all things in its system.

And really desperate did they become only after the Dominion disabled the mine field. That was the moment, the Dominion could have gotten reinforcements from their quadrant. And that was when Sisko asked the prophets for help. They granted it. And after it, the time for desperation was over because the prophets made it impossible for the Dominion to get reinforcement through the wormhole. Therefore the time of desperation lasted only for a few minutes.

The attack on Earth was a surprise attack without any strategical usage. It has not weakened Earth or the Federation.

And Betazed is the only member world of the Federation that was captured.

Such things happen in a war.

But only because the enemy can get to your capital and captures one of over 150 member worlds, you do not get desperate.

Look how WWII begun for the USA. Look at the advancements the Japanese made. And yet the USA never did get desperate. And the only nuke that was used in mankinds history was only used after it was clear that the USA will win that war.

[Picard]

Except that US had more manpower and greater industrial power than entire Axis combined. Federation suffered manpower shortage and was heavily outclassed by Dominion troop production and shipbuilding capabilities - they had quality, but never had sufficient quantity to counter Dominion, much like Thrid Reich versus USSR.

[Praeothmin]

Betazed being captured is akin to Los Angeles being captured by the Japanese in WW II.
Midway, and all the other Pacific targets are more like Bajor than any target deep in Federation space.
Earth being attacked is like the Germans attacking Washington DC.
It never happened.
The US was never in the desperate position the Federation was, and yet they brought out the big guns anyways, because they had it.
Had the Federation still had the Genesis device, they could have brought it out and used it to save millions of lives in combat.
Even the Phase cloak they had, the treaty kept them from using cloaking tehcnology in the Alpha quadrant, not the Delta Quadrant...
And no Treaty ever outlawed the subspace Transporter, so if they didn't use it, it's most likely because it didn't work that well.

So, again, giving the Federation all their "one-shot" wünder toys is dishonest, as they used them once or twice, and never again, either because they are impractical, or the technology did not work properly...

[Picard]

True, but I must correct you on something - Federation was forbidden from building, developing and/or using cloaking device. Ban was universal, not specified "only for Alpha Quadrant". If they used cloak in Delta Quadrant that would too be illegal.

Only cloak Federation was able to legally use was Defiant's one, and even that only in Delta Quadrant. Basically, every time Sisko uses cloak in Alpha Quadrant, he violates Treaty of Algeron.

Also, while they could violate treaty, equip ship with interphase cloak and turn Founder's homeworld into "smoking cinder", it went against their moral laws.

[Praeothmin]

it went against their moral laws.

Which is what I stated earlier as well.
Whatever the reasons for them not using WMD, they don't, even those who aren't outlawed through treaties, like the Genesis torpedo...

So it again comes down to:
Giving the Federation their one-of-a-kind, never-used-again WMD in a vs scenario is dishonest, because they never used them even when useful in their own wars...

[Picard]

The US was never in the desperate position the Federation was, and yet they brought out the big guns anyways, because they had it.

BTW, one of reasons US brought out atomic bomb was USSR. Otherwise, they could just bomb factories and blockade Japan until it surrenders. I'm not saying it would be better (there is no way of knowing how many casualties that metod would cause), but they already knew effects of nuclear weapon (minus radiation) from tests, and they wanted to impress both USSR and Japan. One shot, two kills.

But I think we should keep it to SW cloak. Do we know how it actually works? Is it some kind of active camouflage or not? How Federation can detect it?

And yes, I agree that giving Federation one-shot wonders is dishonest. But in DS9 and Generations it seems that knowledge of how to destroy star is somehow widespread, so it is not more of one-shot wonder than Death Star. Even less.

[Lucky]

it went against their moral laws.

Which is what I stated earlier as well.
Whatever the reasons for them not using WMD, they don't, even those who aren't outlawed through treaties, like the Genesis torpedo...

So it again comes down to:
Giving the Federation their one-of-a-kind, never-used-again WMD in a vs scenario is dishonest, because they never used them even when useful in their own wars...

Stop and think about where the war was taking place, and the group they were fight, and then think about why it might be a bad idea for the UFP and company to start destroying stars and planets when the War was not going all that badly.

[User1462]

They had at least the technology to let a star go super nova and destroy all things in its system.

And really desperate did they become only after the Dominion disabled the mine field. That was the moment, the Dominion could have gotten reinforcements from their quadrant. And that was when Sisko asked the prophets for help. They granted it. And after it, the time for desperation was over because the prophets made it impossible for the Dominion to get reinforcement through the wormhole. Therefore the time of desperation lasted only for a few minutes.

The attack on Earth was a surprise attack without any strategical usage. It has not weakened Earth or the Federation.

And Betazed is the only member world of the Federation that was captured.

Such things happen in a war.

But only because the enemy can get to your capital and captures one of over 150 member worlds, you do not get desperate.

Look how WWII begun for the USA. Look at the advancements the Japanese made. And yet the USA never did get desperate. And the only nuke that was used in mankinds history was only used after it was clear that the USA will win that war.

Actually the US did get desperate after Yalta, thanks to FDR's plunging the US into a war on 2 fronts-- that's why they started a nuclear cold war and turned half the world over to communism. Japan just wanted terms for peace without surrender, they knew from the start that they could never conquer the US. WW2 was pure empire-building, just like WW1.
China could easily have been defended AND liberated via selling them 100 million rifles, but the Chinese government clearly didn't want that-- but the US clearly didn't care about those things, since it frequently allied with SOB-dictators solely on the basis of collaboration, not freedom; those leaders were in no position to bargain, it was either ally with the US or die. Empire-building always claims benevolence, but there's no such thing.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Talking about the cloaking devices, following the reading of a debate at SBC, I got to watch the cutscenes of the Xwing fighter video game, with the Grand Admiral Zarin testing a new cloaking system on a blockade runner type of ship, but it's said there's a problem with hyperdrives.

[User1468]

There are two types of cloaking devices in SW: stygium and hybridium. a Stygium cloak, like the one on Darth Maul's ship, was the best, as it allowed the use of non-Force based sensors on the ship. the hybridium cloak was much bigger, required more power, and was "double-blind"; no one could see in, but you couldn't see out. Stygium cloaks were gone by the time of ANH, as the last source of crystals in the galaxy was depleted. both cloaks could be pierced by a CGT (crystal gravfield trap), which sensed the gravitic impression left on the fabric of space-time, however, CGTs were very rare

[Lucky]

There are two types of cloaking devices in SW: stygium and hybridium. a Stygium cloak, like the one on Darth Maul's ship, was the best, as it allowed the use of non-Force based sensors on the ship. the hybridium cloak was much bigger, required more power, and was "double-blind"; no one could see in, but you couldn't see out. Stygium cloaks were gone by the time of ANH, as the last source of crystals in the galaxy was depleted. both cloaks could be pierced by a CGT (crystal gravfield trap), which sensed the gravitic impression left on the fabric of space-time, however, CGTs were very rare

In T-canon we have only seen the one way cloaks, and it seems like the guys who are making SW:TCW love to make things in C-canon N-canon.

[2046]

Pardon the necro, but I thought it worth adding (since this thread has been referenced elsewhere recently) that the talented modeler Warb Null has created a Republic stealth ship far superior to my own primitive effort.

(He was also the source of the Republic light cruiser model which, at the time, no one else had yet attempted, and may still not've. So worship him accordingly.)

I have downloaded it but have yet to do anything with it. If I remember my methodology correctly, it will require conversion to a SketchUp-acceptable format, extensive cleaning-out of unnecessary interior faces (as most such models do), and possibly a little gap-filling on the exterior to prevent any "leaks", at which point volume measurement can commence.

So, I wouldn't look for results from it to be available until sometime next year, at my current rate of progress.

Well, I finally got around to getting the ship imported into Sketchup after downloading it four months ago. I had actually forgotten my methodology for that and had to figure it out all over again.

(For reference, the .ALO had to be converted to .OFF via 3D Object Converter, and then the .OFF had to be imported to Blender, then exported as a .3DS, which was then imported into Sketchup and saved as the .SKP format. Easy, right?)

Once I got it turned around the right way and scaled to about 135 meters (which was simply the existing scaling on the model of it I'd slapped together), I realized that it didn't quite look right.

Warb Null's models are generally incomparable, but I fear that this time he wavered a bit. Specifically, I'd noted in this thread that my engine section was too short relative to the ship's length . . . and yet his is about two thirds as long as mine. Also, his seven* center sections are rather stout in comparison to how they should appear, based on a quick review of the screenshots. I perceive the center sections as being smaller in diameter than the drive section, for instance, yet his are equal.

Put simply, I have not invested any further time in his model as a result, though I intend to try to fix it up at some point over the next few months. Hopefully soon I can post the pics I made tonight to show the different things spoken of above.


*(compared to the Discovery's 11, 6 in front and 4 in back and including the one with the AE-35 unit . . . just in case you thought of it like I did)

[Mith]

True, but I must correct you on something - Federation was forbidden from building, developing and/or using cloaking device. Ban was universal, not specified "only for Alpha Quadrant". If they used cloak in Delta Quadrant that would too be illegal.

Only cloak Federation was able to legally use was Defiant's one, and even that only in Delta Quadrant. Basically, every time Sisko uses cloak in Alpha Quadrant, he violates Treaty of Algeron.

Also, while they could violate treaty, equip ship with interphase cloak and turn Founder's homeworld into "smoking cinder", it went against their moral laws.

From what I hear, the Romulan Senate filed complaints to the Federation Council.

Sisko responded by telling the Romulans that they could have their cloaking device back when they pried it from his cold, dead hands.

No further complaints were filed. =p

[Admiral Breetai]

in wars what would constitute a cloaking device? something that makes your ship totally invisible? or something that blinds sensors sort of like the minbari

i ask only because allot of times it seems like things get limited to visual range