sonofccn wrote:
Actually 990 lightyears every eight hours or so would exceed 1 million c. So your response is invalid to a lenght of mere hours.
Just in case your curious 24 hours a day divided by eight would equal three which timed against 990 light years would equal 2970 light years a day timed against 365 would equal 1084050 lightyears a year.
You are indeed right. My apologies. But then, upon looking at this, if Wars hyperdrive speeds were only 1 million C, it would have taken as long as a week to a month, depending on the size of the Wars galaxy, for Maul to travel to Tatooine. In reality, he did it in half a day.
I'd actually would like to see you actually cataloge these incidents not just handwave claiming that they are there. For instance Voyager has examples of both less than 1000c max speed as well as over 20,000c.
Yeah, "over 20,000c" is so damn impressive.
The entire series, again, is the evidence. That is, that the journey back to the Alpha Quadrant took seven years.
Then you are being disengenious. You claimed "They considered a few hundred million dead to be a devastating war." when the few hundred million dead were the Cardassians killed on a single planet in a few hours in an adhoc retaliation for them switching sides and was conducted with heavy infantry use.
What you Leave Behind Season 7 DS9 wrote:WEYOUN: We have a security breach.
FOUNDER: The guards will deal with it. Is there a problem?
WEYOUN: The guards. There're only a handful left in the building. I sent the rest to help eradicate the Cardassians
Picard talking about the Federation-Cardassian war:
PICARD: Evek, the last war caused massive destruction... took millions of lives. Don't send our two peoples back down that path... not like this. History is in your hands -- right now. Give us one last chance for peace.
Okay? I'm not sure how well 300 trillion meshes with the Lucas's universe
Because Lucas envisioned a galactic civilization? 300 trillion dead is actually too low when one does the math.
but yes 300 trillion is greater than 900 billion. Through the Dominion were first and foremost conquerers who wanted to dominant solids and the Vong unless I'm mistaken were religious zealots who wanted to purge all unclean life.
That is true. But my point still stands, and that is that the Wars galaxy is simply fundamentally on a larger scale than Trek.
Actually he also insuated that as a free an open Democracy which actively shares and coloberates resources and ideas with each other they are more open to invention than say the repressive Dominon.
Arguably true, but it should not be enough to outpace 10,000 years of advancement.
Considering that by 2150 decades after first contact the best ship mankind could possibly build was fitted was sensors described thusly:
Broken bow (ENT:season 1) wrote:T'POL: It's just background noise. Your sensors aren't capable of isolating plasma decay.
TUCKER: How can you be so damn sure what our sensors can do?
T'POL: Vulcan children play with toys that are more sophisticated.
As well their ships can do warp seven while the warp five engine was a major advancment for human kind
Fallen Hero (ENT-season 1) wrote:T'POL: The Sh'Raan is capable of warp seven. If we could maintain warp five we'd reach them in twelve minutes.
I think its fair to say that on first contact they ate our lunch.
They ate our lunch, but they didn't squash us like insects. Not as if Trek technological advancement were as fast as claimed.
Nor is Trek any less centralized than Wars...
Gambit Part 2:
RIKER: What's going to happen to the mercenaries?
PICARD: They have been detained by the Vulcan authorities, for the moment. But they're also facing charges from the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, and about seven
other worlds. We won't be hearing from them for quite some time.
Implies that the vast majority of each race is concentrated in their home planet to the point of their entire species being syndectoted with their planet. Yet the Vulcan homeworld only has 5 billion or so inhabitants, and Earth hardly looks like Coruscant from our glimpses of it.
Therefore, it is highly likely that the trillions of officers and trillions of army corps in the Empire outnumber the population of the Alpha Quadrant.
In a handful of years. So not only were you wrong about only 11% being charted the speed in which they are now charting the cosmos is absolutely staggering. In the we'll chart the entire galaxy in a couple of decades sense since the point seems to be missing you.
No, you won't, or else the Enterprise would have been retired long ago. The Federation still has exploration vessels, and it's far easier to chart the first 30% than the unknown reaches of the galaxy with menaces like the Borg and the Dominion or other uknowns out there.
But I hardly see how this is going to matter, because the war certainly won't take decades anyway if the imperial army outnumbers the Federation civilian population.
Actually the EU strictly says otherwise and the only claim for it would be an sure of herself Jedi.
Obi Wan trusted her more than any other in the galaxy when it comes to coordinates and mapping (AOTC novel). Nor is it reasonable to think that Jocasta Nu was a self-deluded idiot who thought that they had charted the galaxy if there were well known, uncharted parts of it.
Conversely it has been shown to you in T-canon that not all hyperspace routes, massive ones which could tilt a war, in the Core systems are charted in the waning days of the Republic. And 25,000 or 1,000 they've been at it a lot longer than the Federation has been charting space.
Who gives a flying damn? The Federation doesn't know jack about hyperspace lanes, and if they did, they'd hardly have the logistics to find them all and muster enough ships to blockade them (they struggle to mobilize 40 ships to combat a galactic threat). Nor do they have any method to reliably blockade hyperspace lanes anyway.
And non-hyperspace hyperdrive is still incredibly fast compared to most warp showings.
Could you go more in depths than a general refrence to the films? Off the top of my head be it the Diner Ben goes to ATOC, the moisture farm in ANH the "average joe" who owns droids does it in order to perform their job. Like a farmer owns a tractor and tilling machinery doesn't mean the entire population of America has one in their garage. Further you are making sweeping assumptions over the worlds which make up the Republic/Empire even through from what little we've seen of Dac or Kashyyyk such worlds don't have an over abundance of droids and both were members of the Old Republic. Then there's Naboo, Ryloth, and Toydaria none of which I remember being shown as a heavy droid dependent cultures.
Now I could be misremembering so what precisely are you basing the "droid:sapient " ratio as high.
Owen, a moisture farmer, could afford to buy two droids. Even if one in every one hundred people owned a droid (when a poor, backwater moisture farmer owned two), you get an incredibly high number of them.
Still, more than probably the human population in the galaxy.
I have done that but I am hardly an ally of Mike. That is giving me way to much credit considering the bulk of our interaction is him correcting one of my childish mistakes. The simple fact of hte matter is we don't all tow the same party line, we each have differnt ideas and thoughts on the matter and disagreement.
Good. No worry about 25,000 years with you then.
My point being that Star Wars has a very significantly higher population than Trek, its military forces are incalculably larger than Trek, and additionally it can mobilize troops and equipment far more rapidly, with a faster FTL and far more ships to spare.
And I am not doing the disparity justice here. The Germans lost WW2 largely, historians agree, because they faced 4:1 to 8:1 odds when it comes to industrial production. Here, the Federation faces thousands to one odds on industry, population and fleet size and you still think it can win.
You have not listed where this "quote" is coming from.
What, the trillions of crew quote? Really, it was quoted in the very post that started this mini-debate. Please actually read it.
In one source.
Who cares? It's still a canon statement.
And it's not just one source; the Essential Chronology quantifies the GAR as having hundreds of millions of
divisions.
Conversely we know there were only trillions of people in the Old Republic from a G-canon source. The Outer Rim would have to be heavily populated, or massively conscripted, to make up the difference. Not absolutely incompatable but difficult to fit in with the G-cannon universe. Asking that you put the skullsweat into actually trying to fit the pieces togather is hardly a crime.
[/quote]
Precisely.
So we know that the Empire consists of
trillions of naval crew, implying an absolutely enormous fleet size volumetrically comparable to billions of imperial star destroyers. Granted, most of these are probably random patrol ships designed to stop traffic violators, but the weight is still there.
Since the army corps has
trillions, and the stormtroopers corp at its peak outnumbered both the army and navy corps, we can conclude that stormtroopers will outnumber the entire Federation human population. Even if stormtroopers were weaklings with sticks, they would still have the edge in a ground war. Mind you, stormtroopers, with exceptions,
are incompetent (although none here admit that redshirts are so incompetent, their name has become an online meme), but the Red Army of conscripts would still easily overrun Poland.
Evidence to support my claim that Federation mobilization is piss slow (in comparison):
PICARD VO: Captain's Log: Stardate 46984.6 No additional Borg attacks have been reported in the past two days. However, Starfleet has dispatched Admiral Nechayev to take command in this sector in preparation for a
possible Borg invasion [read: THREAT TO THE EXISTENCE OF FEDERATION].
NECHAYEV: There will be
fifteen [compared to thousands at RotS Coruscant, dozens at AotC Geonosis] starships in this sector
by the day after tomorrow [compared to hours in AotC and RotS]. The Gorkon will be my flagship. You'll have command of task force three, consisting of the Enterprise, the Crazy Horse and the Agamemnon.
Amazing Federation production capabilities!
SHELBY: We'll have the fleet back up in less than a year.
After losing 39 ships to a borg attack. 39 ships massing perhaps five imperial star destroyer, yet in 6 months (Shadows of the Empire) the Empire constructed in secrecy a half-complete
Death Star.
Now of course, even if the Empire did completely bankrupt every credit and resource it had making it (which is patently false, since it would no longer be a secret by any stretch), it would still equate to a greater feat in production than the entire Alpha Quadrant could ever make in a century.
