Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[StarWarsStarTrek]

1. Warp drive is slllloooowwwww.
2. They are pacifistic, and have no need for giant fleets.
3. They haven't had 25,000 years to do it.
4. They have only charted out 11% of the galaxy.
5. They don't have a droid labor force.
6. They don't have access to as many planets.

Nope, not trolling. Here he keeps repeating the same damn debunked garbage over and over again.

1.) Warp drive is incredibly fast in charted territory. Over 1 million c in some cases. Which is exactly what hyperdrive does in charted territory!

If that were true, no Star Trek movie or episode would ever have occured.

No, really. Taking months to travel across Federation space is essential to the series' plot. Like in the dominion war, when reinforcements are sparse because all fleets are "weeks" away from coming to the protagonists' aid, giving them excuse to fighting on their own.

2.) Pacificstic? The Federation may have gotten complacent, by they were hardly pacificstic to the point that they couldn't defend against the Romulans, Klingons, or anyone else in the Alpha quadrant, if need be. When the Dominion and Borg entered the scene, within just a few years they went to total war footing and created a thousands upon thousands strong fleet large enough to challenge those threats, and replace some horrendeous losses during that time.

They considered a few hundred million dead to be a devastating war. The YV war took hundreds of trillions.

3.) Two statements in the movies place the Republic at 1,000 years old, not one thousand generations. But let's go over that again. Let's assume that intersteller civilization in the GFFA is that old. Great. We know that Federation members, like the Vulcans were starfaring at least 3,000 years prior to the founding of it, and the Dominion was starfaring up to 10,000 years prior. The GFFA civilization is also very stagnant to boot, nothing really changed technologically in 30 years there, where in ST's Milky Way, things change very rapidly.

Things change very rapidly, yet the Federation matches the Dominion's 10,000 years of spacefaring after only a few centuries?

4.) 19 percent, as per Wesley in "The Dauphin". Just a year earlier, it was 11 percent, so does that mean the Federation is rapidly growing and exploring that much every year? Yikes! A nearly doubling of the charted territory, and we see the chart in "The Chase" a few years later that shows at least a whole quadrant of the Milky Way is charted, so that upped to at least 25-30 percent.

Which is, the last time I have checked, less than 100%.

5.) So? They have replicators, hard-light hologram workforce, etc.

Does not compete with quintillions of droids. Sorry.

6.) This is actually technically true, but then again there seems to be a discrepency as to how each group counts membership and what the actual numbers are. Many planets in the Republic and later Empire are very sparsely populated, or have nothing on them at all.

This will go down as another example of why SWST got banned.
-Mike

Another example? You concede that points 4, 5 and 6 are all "technically" true, and point 2 partially true. And inadvertantly concede that point 3 is true, unless if you think that 10,000 years is more than 25,000. Heck, you concede that point 2 is true, but irrelevant.

The Imperial military is a massive organiztion, with tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a vast force of staormtroopers both cloned and conditioned.

Luke Skywalker has returned to his home
planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue
his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the
vile gangster Jabba the Hutt.

Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC
EMPIRE has secretly begun construction on a
new armored space station even more powerful
than the first dreaded Death Star.

Tens of trillions of regular troops means that the imperial army possibly matches the size of the entire Federation...

At the Empire’s height, the core Stormtrooper forces were said to outnumber the regular army and navy personnel combined

Trillions of fleet crew would correlate to billions of galaxy class equivalent starships.

The below quote proves that the second death star was constructed in secret. So in secret, in the outer rim, the Empire built something probably massing more than the Federation's industrial output over its lifetime.

[Picard]

They considered a few hundred million dead to be a devastating war.

Yet are prepared to fight until they suffer at least 900 billion casualties.

Things change very rapidly, yet the Federation matches the Dominion's 10,000 years of spacefaring after only a few centuries?

Things in Alpha Quadrant, where relatively small (in comparasion to Dominion and Borg) Federation is sandwiched between equally relatively small but quite warlike Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, Tholian Assembly and Cardassian Union. Remember how fast technology advanced during Cold war? And one of main advantages of Europe over rest of the world was that it was fractured into hundreds of miniature competing states for centuries. Whereas in Star Wars, Republic was at peace for its entire 1000-year-long existence, and in Star Trek, Dominion could always Zerg-rush opponents and was big kid on the block while smaller races apparently didn't know about it and its tendencies, or were hard under its grasp, thus stunning technological development. Althought, Federation is most rapidly advancing of all Alpha Quadrant powers.

[Admiral Breetai]

so like Why hasn't SWST answered what would happen the moment a slip capable Sovereign armed with ablative armor and hundreds of Q torps backed up by a dozen Nebulas that have been modified to have that weird mushroom on top to barf out thousands of Photon Torps..shows up over Curoscant?

I mean I can see it now..smoking cinder..20-40% dead

y'know what'd be cool if he can explain why slow moving hulks that have to trade Napoleonic era broad sides..with each other are gonna tag vessels with such a speed and range edge

[Trinoya]

For the same reason he has ignored dozens of posts in this thread. If he had a counter argument (namely one that hadn't already been debunked) he'd have used it by now.

The short of it was, he set up an un-winnable scenario for his side, he'd be better off redoing it at this point.

[Mike DiCenso]

This crap is sheer trolling and will earn you another warning for essentially just posting handwaving and ignoring evidence, and not providing any explanation or proper counter-evidence:

If that were true, no Star Trek movie or episode would ever have occurred.

No, really. Taking months to travel across Federation space is essential to the series' plot. Like in the dominion war, when reinforcements are sparse because all fleets are "weeks" away from coming to the protagonists' aid, giving them excuse to fighting on their own.

Why is that true? A good number of episodes have insanely high speeds, such as the Enterprise traversing across one thousand light years to reach Tycho IV in "Obsession" [TOS, Season 2] in a day, or 990 light years in "That Which Survives" [TOS, Season 3] and does that in mere hours. The TOS Enterprise goes back and forth from the very limits of the Milky Way galaxy's edge not once, but three times in the series, etc ("Where No Man Has Gone Before", "By Any Other Name", and "In Truth, is There No Beauty?"). The E-D pulls off several similar feats, such as "The Chase", having to follow a path that spans at least 40,000 light years as was demonstrated on a map of the MW galaxy by Professor Galen. The E-D did that in days, pushing her engines. Again, all this occurs in well-charted territory.

Where is it ever stated that Federation forces are "weeks" away from anything? We only know that it takes weeks for mere freighters to travel across the Federation. The E-E in Star Trek: First Contact travels from the the distant Romulan Neutral Zone to intercept the Borg cube in a what appears to be less than a day's time. ST:ENT's "Dead Stop" shows that the nearest Romulan territory at that time was at least 150 light years from Earth

They considered a few hundred million dead to be a devastating war. The YV war took hundreds of trillions.

Huh? What? When? Over 800 million were dead on Cardassia in a matter of hours when the Dominion and Breen tried to exterminate them for switching sides. But in "Statistical Probabilities", 900 billion were projected to be killed and in the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise", over 40 billion were killed in the Federation alone in the Federation-Klingon war. As for your numbers, what source are you using? You rarely, if ever cite a source that can be verified.

Things change very rapidly, yet the Federation matches the Dominion's 10,000 years of spacefaring after only a few centuries?

They have space-faring members who've been at it for millennia, such as the Vulcans. "The Andorian Incident" [ST:ENT, Season 1], establishes that the Vulcan monastary of P'Jem had been established 3,000 years prior to the 2151 timeframe of the episode. That means that in order to do that, Vulcans had to have been spacefaring quite some time before that to be able to develop a capability to traverse many light years to get from Vulcan to P'Jem. That implies at least centuries. On top of that, unlike the Dominion, which is a highly repressive authoritarian government, the Federation is a peaceful, voluntary, open demoncracy and it's members share everything with each other, thus research and development would go faster. That's why the Federation started just behind the Dominion technologically to being at least on par.

Which is, the last time I have checked, less than 100%.

Irrelevant. The point was made that 11 percent was not what was charted. Both a later statement and a viewscreen map of the MW galaxy show us a vastly larger proportion has been explored and charted than you claim. What's more, if you take the progression of charted territory literally, it is frighteningly fast in Star Trek compared to Star Wars. In a few years the Federation charted an amazing 20 percent more than they did when the 11 percent statement was made. In Star Wars by contrast, it takes centuries to chart out even one hyperlane.

Does not compete with quintillions of droids. Sorry.

Why? How do you know that quintillons even exist in the proper George Lucas Star Wars universe? Remember that just a couple years of fighting the Clone Wars and ordering a mere additional 5 million clones was enough to bankrupt the Galactic Republic as per "Heroes on Both Sides" [TCW, Season 3]. By comparision, the Dominion can grow a Jem'Hadar soldier from infant to fighting adult in a matter of days ("The Abandoned" [DS9, Season 3], and easily without breaking a sweat replaced them by the millions.

Another example? You concede that points 4, 5 and 6 are all "technically" true, and point 2 partially true. And inadvertantly concede that point 3 is true, unless if you think that 10,000 years is more than 25,000. Heck, you concede that point 2 is true, but irrelevant.

You got banned precisely because of nonsense like this. The Republic as an organization was 1,000 years old as per statments made in the prequel trilogy. Example:

PALPATINE: I will not let this Republic that has stood for
a thousand years be split in two. My negotiations will not
fail!

That was from "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones".

By contrast, the Dominion was 10,000 years old, and the Founders had to be spacefaring long before that, just as the Vulcans were millennia before the Fedeeration's founding. See, what bothers me is that you keep picking the highest numbers, or going with literalist interpretations when none are called for, and on top of that you rarely properly cite sources for your alleged information. When you do cite something, it is often out of context, or what you claim, or based heavily on someone else's work.

Tens of trillions of regular troops means that the imperial army possibly matches the size of the entire Federation...

Where are you getting this from? No citations.

Trillions of fleet crew would correlate to billions of galaxy class equivalent starships.

The below quote proves that the second death star was constructed in secret. So in secret, in the outer rim, the Empire built something probably massing more than the Federation's industrial output over its lifetime.

So what. The first Death Star took 23 years to build, and it's construction did not remain secret. But as has been pointed out before, without any citations, your quotes are worthless, and likely cherry picking. Even if the second Death Star was made in total secrecy, what did it cost the Empire to do so? What did they sacrifice that they could have done instead? And if there are trillions of crew, how come we never ever see in the movies or TCW fleets to match this, except possibly the Battle of Coruscant, which maybe had a few hundred ships total from both sides taking part in it based on the visuals.

The fact that only a million clone troops was created in AoTC, combined with the Republic being threatened with bankruptcy over 5 million more troopers argues against such a thing. But let's take it this way; let's suppose that the Republic had a full 8 million clones and the regular militia of various worlds outnumber them by a 1,000 to one on average. That means 8 billion, not trillion soldiers. Of course we never really saw numbers like that, except maybe on Kashyyyk.

By contrast in the canon of Star Trek, many thousands of ships were expected to fight in the final battle of, with losses in the "thousands" as per dialog in "The Dogs of War" [DS9, Season 7].
-Mike

[KSW]

Time-travel into the past and destroy the Empire before it starts.
Bada-boom, bada-bing!

You will not use any Treknologies of the week and vice versa. No Genesis devices, no phase-cloak, etc.

Phase-shifting technology was used in "The Pegasus" and "The Next Phase."
That's TWO weeks.

Finally, the final episode of "Enterprise" showed Riker on trial for his actions in violating the Treaty of Algernon with the phase-cloak on "The Pegasus."

3 weeks, yer OUT!

As for the Genesis Device, this was the subject of TWO movies, not one; STII and III. Likewise, just as with Riker and the phase-cloak, Kirk was on trial in ST IV for violating that prohibition as well, so that's 3 movies. Batter up!

The main reason we've never seen the Genesis device developed anymore is that it wasn't needed. It was originally invented to solve shortages of food and living-space, while Kruge wnated it as a weapon for the Klingon Empire.

Then Klingons obviously discovered the hazards of playing with holy fire in STVI. Meanwhile the invention of replicators solved the food-shortage by replacing the need for Earth-like planets to grow Quadrotriticale, and likewise, they would solve the problem of living-space by eliminating the need for agriculture, enabling the tranformation of poisonous atmospheres to breathable air etc. You could live on just about any planet, by using a planetary-shield generator to control how much heat got into or out of the planet. Replicators would supply food, water, and air.

[Praeothmin]

This crap is sheer trolling and will earn you another warning for essentially just posting handwaving and ignoring evidence, and not providing any explanation or proper counter-evidence:

For example, once again ignoring DS9 where ships travelled the 50 LY from Bajor to Earth in less than a day, where ships travelled to and from Kronos, starting from DS9, in less then two days, and the same with Romulus...
All these have been told to him many times over, and he continues to ignore those examples... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

As for the Genesis Device, this was the subject of TWO movies, not one; STII and III. Likewise, just as with Riker and the phase-cloak, Kirk was on trial in ST IV for violating that prohibition as well, so that's 3 movies. Batter up!

Actually, four. Janeway mentions Genesis and Dr. Marcus in "The Omega Directive" [YOY, Season 4]:

JANEWAY:Captain's Log, supplemental. Encrypt log entry. We're approaching the star system where we believe we'll find Omega. I have to admit, I have never been this apprehensive about a mission. I know how Einstein must've felt about the atom bomb, or Marcus when she developed the genesis device. They watched helplessly as science took a destructive course. But I have the chance to prevent that from happening. I just hope it's not too late.

Protomatter, a mysterious, powerful, and highly unstable substance was introduced as a key component of the Genesis Device in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock, was mentioned several times in DS9 and VOY.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

This crap is sheer trolling and will earn you another warning for essentially just posting handwaving and ignoring evidence, and not providing any explanation or proper counter-evidence:

For example, once again ignoring DS9 where ships travelled the 50 LY from Bajor to Earth in less than a day, where ships travelled to and from Kronos, starting from DS9, in less then two days, and the same with Romulus...
All these have been told to him many times over, and he continues to ignore those examples... :)

I've never heard anywhere that Earth was only 50 light years from Bajor, except the non-canon works like the DS9 TM.
-Mike

[Lucky]

As for the Genesis Device, this was the subject of TWO movies, not one; STII and III. Likewise, just as with Riker and the phase-cloak, Kirk was on trial in ST IV for violating that prohibition as well, so that's 3 movies. Batter up!

Actually, four. Janeway mentions Genesis and Dr. Marcus in "The Omega Directive" [YOY, Season 4]:

JANEWAY:Captain's Log, supplemental. Encrypt log entry. We're approaching the star system where we believe we'll find Omega. I have to admit, I have never been this apprehensive about a mission. I know how Einstein must've felt about the atom bomb, or Marcus when she developed the genesis device. They watched helplessly as science took a destructive course. But I have the chance to prevent that from happening. I just hope it's not too late.

Protomatter, a mysterious, powerful, and highly unstable substance was introduced as a key component of the Genesis Device in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock, was mentioned several times in DS9 and VOY.
-Mike

Isn't it implied in DS9 that derivative technologies were crated from Genesis device technologies?

[sonofccn]

You got banned precisely because of nonsense like this. The Republic as an organization was 1,000 years old as per statments made in the prequel trilogy.

I concur sir that SWST is a troll but in the EU the Republic is 25,000 years old based from a line Obiwan said I believe of Jedi serving the Republic for a thousand generations. The 1000 year refrences are retconed to refer to a reformation after a bloody Sith-Jedi war. In this one, solitary, instance I feel SWST was justified sir, it is an "offical" figure even if it is not a Lucas derived one.

Sorry for butting in regardless.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'd agree with you, but Lucas is the ultimate retconner, and he penned in 1,000 years for the Republic, not 1,000 generations, which is what he had Obi-Wan say in ANH. That did cause a massive EU shuffle, but the EU C-canon is a low canon now. The EU claiming some reformation thing does not jive with what Palpatine and others in the PT have said.

Furthermore, see my additional comments on the matter in that post, even if that were true, there is much more involved in the matter, since many ST powers predate the Federation as spacefaring powers centuries and millennia before it's formation.

And to top it off, these have all been shown to him as evidence many times before, which he has repeatedly stuck his head in the ground and shown he will ignore not matter what.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

This crap is sheer trolling and will earn you another warning for essentially just posting handwaving and ignoring evidence, and not providing any explanation or proper counter-evidence:

For example, once again ignoring DS9 where ships travelled the 50 LY from Bajor to Earth in less than a day, where ships travelled to and from Kronos, starting from DS9, in less then two days, and the same with Romulus...
All these have been told to him many times over, and he continues to ignore those examples... :)

I've never heard anywhere that Earth was only 50 light years from Bajor, except the non-canon works like the DS9 TM.
-Mike

Well, if it's even farther from Earth than 50 LY, than ST vessels in DS9 are faster than what was calculated here, and SWST is still ignoring this fact: Earth-Bajor is usually pretty fast, and during DS9, communications are instantaneous...

[KSW]

I'd agree with you, but Lucas is the ultimate retconner, and he penned in 1,000 years for the Republic, not 1,000 generations, which is what he had Obi-Wan say in ANH. That did cause a massive EU shuffle, but the EU C-canon is a low canon now. The EU claiming some reformation thing does not jive with what Palpatine and others in the PT have said.

Furthermore, see my additional comments on the matter in that post, even if that were true, there is much more involved in the matter, since many ST powers predate the Federation as spacefaring powers centuries and millennia before it's formation.

And to top it off, these have all been shown to him as evidence many times before, which he has repeatedly stuck his head in the ground and shown he will ignore not matter what.
-Mike

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[KSW]

4.) 19 percent, as per Wesley in "The Dauphin". Just a year earlier, it was 11 percent, so does that mean the Federation is rapidly growing and exploring that much every year? Yikes! A nearly doubling of the charted territory, and we see the chart in "The Chase" a few years later that shows at least a whole quadrant of the Milky Way is charted, so that upped to at least 25-30 percent.

Which is, the last time I have checked, less than 100%.

Check again. 25% of the MW galaxy is MORE than 100% of the SW galaxy, which you stated as being 50,000 ly wide for this thread.

That makes it 1/8 the size of of the MW galaxy, volume-wise; so even 25% of the MW galaxy is equal to 200% of the SW galaxy.

At the end of SW Ep.V, they can see a "distant galaxy" and it doesn't look that far away, but there's no canonical mention of anyone going there, or to any other galaxy; so it seems that even if they mapped 100% of their own galaxy, that's as far as they've gotten.