Rebuttal to darkstar's website

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I'll admit that Star Wars canon evidence can have many varying implications for technology level. There are two "extremes":

1. Teraton and gigaton level turbolasers, teraton and petaton level shields, etc.
2. Turbolasers on par with bunker busters...shields can't stop minor asteroids.

Number 1, however, is more accurate. Why? Reasons:

1. They're more consistent. Number 2's contradict themselves within their own publications. For example, some comics show

You just put the cart before the horse. Your job is to show that the comics and other EU material is canon. Claiming that the EU is canon because only then is Star Wars tech consistent with the EU is silly.

But frankly, barring some major reversal, the canon debate is in a remarkably settled state right now. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that the TCW show is part of the movie universe, and pretty much everyone acknowledges how Lucas and others point to the EU being separate.

We've got quotes and video of Lucas making it all very clear for years and years, and unless he changes his mind and we suddenly end up with newer videos and quotes of him saying the exact opposite of what he's been saying for years, there's really no debate.

There is simply reality and those who oppose it.

The authors of the high end examples are, coincidentally enough, the ones that actually care about stuff like weapon yield and power output.

Funny . . . I always considered the Saxton-and-Friends mailing list quotes about how they wanted to make sure Star Wars tech was comparing favorably to Trek's to be a lovely little lagniappe against the ICS wankery, not a reason to support it.

I would've assumed that was a bipartisan idea, too. I mean, I could buy all the rights to Star Trek tomorrow, make my own canon policy, and then immediately canonize a few back-of-the-napkin calculations that show a Federation ship as capable of outputting 1E50J. I could even have it say "haha, we win Saxtards!!!1shift1", too.

But I don't think any true fan actually wants their franchise warped for the express purpose of having greater tech than some other franchise. I don't want Star Wars warped to make it have greater tech than Andromeda or Battletech or some other franchise I don't know or give a crap about . . . I want Star Wars to be Star Wars.

Similarly, I wouldn't want Trek to be warped into some ICS-defeating franchise, because I know little about it and don't give a crap about it . It's not the Star Wars of Lucas.

If you're the sort who does want his franchise wanked, then you really need to rethink your life, because your priorities are all out of whack. I mean, it's bad enough we're spending time on this mess to begin with, but if you hate Star Wars so much you want it abused like that and yet you still persist in arguing for it . . . I don't know, chief, but that's a huge confusion of ideas to muddle through, there.

{...} the lower end feats suggest that a space age civilization uses a 3 million man army, that they use sub kiloton weapons as heavy bombardment {...}, that a planet destroying weapon would actually run on fusion, and a bunch of other ridiculously stupid things.

So it seems you do understand what the Lucas canon represents . . . you just don't like it.

Does it make sense that giant turbolasers; giant as in the size of a superfortress bomber, would have sub kiloton yields?

It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. Oh, sure, when it comes to single examples it's best to default on the side of reason, but when we have clear evidence up and down the spectrum that the firepower of X is Y, then Y it is.

It is what it is, not what we want it to be or expect that it should be.

At the end of the day, we are not dealing with reality. We are dealing with TV and movie fakery produced in cheap metal buildings in California by people who, almost to a man, have absolutely no concept of anything scientific.

I can read, darkstar. Leland Chase disagreed with your canon policy...personally! You want to go with the low end of Star Trek, though? There are plenty of low end examples. Here:

(Aratech's first post in the thread, #4) http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... r+asteroid

(Queveron's third post in the thread, #11) http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... enterprise

The breen attack on Earth also shows quite clearly high kiloton level explosions...not megaton level explosions.

As for your claims that the low end Star Wars interpretations are valid, the ICS is canon/official/whatever you want to call the EU. Star Wars Slave Ship supports it quite accurately. Star Wars Death Star has quotes supporting that the Death Star's hypermatter reactor is about e28 watts, which turns out to scale almost perfectly to the Acclamator power output. Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader confirms that the star destroyers in the Hoth asteroid belt took multi megaton level compression bomb's worth of asteroid impacts, and G canon implies that they were in it for at least a day. Ironically, using your slower hyperdrive speed calculations, that number actually rises. So with the power generation confirmed, the 200 gigaton turbolaser claims don't become so ridiculous, because the energy is clearly there to power such a thing. The shield strength claims don't become so ridiculous either, both because of the gigaton confirmation, the RoDV confirmation and the fact that the energy to power such a powerful shield is clearly there. Therefore, we have 4 sources strongly supporting a high end Star Wars, and they are surprisingly consistent, and many more support such a high end Star Wars, such as the Star Wars Technical Journal. Ironically...somewhat, G canon's "vaporize a small town" claim overrides all claims of sub kiloton turbolasers, so bye bye TWC low end feats.

So now justify why you still do not accept high end Star Wars feats despite several books supporting it, only two of which are written by Saxton; AOTC ICS and ROTS ICS. What about Star Wars Slave Ship? Star Wars Technical Journal? Star Wars Imperial Sourcebook? Star Wars Death Star? Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader? How do you rationalize these, without resorting to ad hominems?

[Picard]

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

[sonofccn]

The breen attack on Earth also shows quite clearly high kiloton level explosions...not megaton level explosions.

I for one would really like to see how you are making this judgment.

Star Wars Death Star has quotes supporting that the Death Star's hypermatter reactor is about e28 watts, which turns out to scale almost perfectly to the Acclamator power output.

Based on a single line refering to an explosive failure, wouldn't come close to Saxton's figure as Mike D. and JMS have both informed you, and both are the sort you can take their word to the bank if banks accepted words of course, and lastly your interpertation is countered by the very novel where a shot at roughly third power fails to noticably remove a planetiod.

Tenn looked at the images from the targeting cam. He still had his hand on the firing lever. He released it and stared, watching as the very air on the prison world caught fire in a runaway planetary holocaust. Seismographic sensors showed that massive groundquakes had begun, rumbling down into the bowels of the planet. Giant waves in the ocean, generated by the shifting of tectonic plates, rushed for the shores of the big continent. Volcanoes spewed lava. Clouds of steam and volcanic ash began to rapidly obscure the surface from view—but not fast enough.
He had just killed everything on the planet Despayre. If all life wasn't dead already, it would be soon.
The CO moved to look over his shoulder. He didn't congratulate Tenn on the shot; he just stood there.
"Stang," Tenn said.
The CO nodded. "Yeah."


COMMAND CENTER, OVERBRIDGE, DEATH STAR

Motti said, "Engineering says the capacitors will be recharged in an hour and thirteen minutes."
Tarkin watched the projection as the effects of the beam manifested on the planet. By the time the second pulse was ready for discharge, there wouldn't be anything alive on the world below them to care. The chain reaction was massive. And at only one-third of the power that would be available when it was fully operational."

Special Thanks to Mike for the quote.

While impressive compared to our puny power levels a one third shot is noticably less powerful than what you claim the reactor can do. And before you say it doesn't matter what the beam does since you are just talking about the reactor answer me this. If Vader and the rest of the Imps had access to a stable form of generating planet busting outputs why go to all the trouble of building a special, hyperspace based superlaser?

Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader confirms that the star destroyers in the Hoth asteroid belt took multi megaton level compression bomb's worth of asteroid impacts

Could you quote the revelant passages? Its been several years since I've read Rise of Darth Vader and I don't remember anything about the Hoth asteriod field.

G canon implies that they were in it for at least a day.

Possible through I await your reasoning. G canon would also support submegatonage asteriods pwning a pristin ISD.

[User1462]

I can read, darkstar. Leland Chase disagreed with your canon policy...personally!

WHO?
"Leland Chase, Lucastarts..."
Ok, this troll's not even trying to hide it anymore; he's wanking all over your shoes, but still you believe he's being sincere.

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

He wouldn't care if Lucas himself showed up at his front door and did a singing-telegram; he'd call it "informal statements."

THIS is why we need a firm policy against EU-wanking, since that's the only thing that will keep SFJ from becoming SDN once all the other fanwankers come on board.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?

[User1462]

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?

Speak of the devil, the troll wanks again: "Leland Chase, Lucastarts" etc.
Somebody wanna slap this compulsive liar, so he won't chant out that mantra again?

This is third-hand Wong-wanking, while the real Dr. McCoy is that in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine, Lucas said the following:

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Meanwhile, Lucas' statements in Starlog were commented on in a December 7, 2005 post on the starwars.com forums by Leland Chee, who maintains Lucas Licensing's continuity database:

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

So Leland Chee (NOT "Chase") was commenting on LUCAS'S statements-- NOT Darkstar's or anyone else's. And so these statements by Lucas CANNOT be "informal statements" which can be dismissed due to Chee's comments ON them!

Just because the EU meets certain tenets set by Lucas, does NOT make it part of the same universe-- particularly since Lucas SAYS so; but you Warsies play so fast-and-loose with the facts, that it fits the definition of "wanking" by its very description.

Lying is trolling, and if I were a mod here then you'd be perma-banned for that, since it's not the first time, it's your Modus Operandi.

So in conclusion, you are a lying Warsie troll, and have no business debating among honest people. I can't ban you, but I cast you out with the publicans (watch THAT one fly over his head).

To the mods: if I've broken any rules here then I'm sorry, but I just couldn't tolerate this outright dishonesty any longer, and I had to speak up and call a troll a troll.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?

Speak of the devil, the troll wanks again: "Leland Chase, Lucastarts" etc.
Somebody wanna slap this compulsive liar, so he won't chant out that mantra again?

This is third-hand Wong-wanking, while the real Dr. McCoy is that in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine, Lucas said the following:

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Meanwhile, Lucas' statements in Starlog were commented on in a December 7, 2005 post on the starwars.com forums by Leland Chee, who maintains Lucas Licensing's continuity database:

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

So Leland Chee (NOT "Chase") was commenting on LUCAS'S statements-- NOT Darkstar's or anyone else's. And so these statements by Lucas CANNOT be "informal statements" which can be dismissed due to Chee's comments ON them!

Just because the EU meets certain tenets set by Lucas, does NOT make it part of the same universe-- particularly since Lucas SAYS so; but you Warsies play so fast-and-loose with the facts, that it fits the definition of "wanking" by its very description.

Lying is trolling, and if I were a mod here then you'd be perma-banned for that, since it's not the first time, it's your Modus Operandi.

So in conclusion, you are a lying Warsie troll, and have no business debating among honest people. I can't ban you, but I cast you out with the publicans (watch THAT one fly over his head).

To the mods: if I've broken any rules here then I'm sorry, but I just couldn't tolerate this outright dishonesty any longer, and I had to speak up and call a troll a troll.

"the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not."

Can you read?

Also, Star Wars C canon:

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

Seriously though, you have not provided a single argument supporting your case. Your side thinks that counting the number of bolts that haven't hit the ground is an accurate depiction for the number of bolts needed to cause an explosion that has already happened (even though said bolts in the air would not have anything to do with the explosion that happened BEFORE they hit the ground), thinks that having armored vehicles is evidence of poor orbital combat, and denies the canon status of the EU, while stickying a thread about EU sources that contradict the ICS and using the EU novel Star Wars Death Star as evidence for your chain reaction theory. Wow.

[Admiral Breetai]

so basically SWST feels that he knows better then lucas? who out of his own mouth..said he followed treks canon policy?

hey what would happen if in an interview Lucas came out and said he felt that a single Sovreing class could lulstomp the fleet at Endor

would you dismiss that too the way your doing his comment about the EU?

[User1462]

so basically SWST feels that he knows better then lucas? who out of his own mouth..said he followed treks canon policy?

It looks that way; here I put his wank-statements in context; but he ignores it outright, and just goes back as if I've said NOTHING-- but he just repeats his prior wank, and says "can't you read?"

To wit from above:

Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?

My response:

In an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine, Lucas said the following:

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Meanwhile, Lucas' statements in Starlog were commented on in a December 7, 2005 post on the starwars.com forums by Leland Chee, who maintains Lucas Licensing's continuity database:

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

So Leland Chee (NOT "Chase") was commenting on LUCAS'S statements-- NOT Darkstar's or anyone else's. And so these statements by Lucas CANNOT be "informal statements" which can be dismissed due to Chee's comments ON them!

Just because the EU meets certain tenets set by Lucas, does NOT make it part of the same universe-- particularly since Lucas SAYS so.

His response:

"the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not."

Can you read?

So even when I SHOVE the context right in his face, what does he do?
He PICKS his desired snippet directly OUT of context, and says "can you read?"

He's got his wank-story, and by golly he's stickin' to it-- and when challenged, he stuffs his fingers in his ears and goes "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!"
Pure pathological denial.

[Picard]

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?

I am not fan of anybody. Your logic is flawed, your arguments are flawed, your debating tactics are dishonest, you are liar and no amount of wanking will change that. You are not debating, you just repeat what others (Wong, SDNers, other Warsies) said. You try to reinterpret anything that does not support your wievs, or ignore it if you can't reinterpret it - but that is standard Warsie tactics. So stop trolling and stick to discussion. You have all quotes on that link, now it's your turn. Try to prove that Leland Chee overrides both Lucas and Roffman. And what about fact that Lucas said that he based canon policy on that of Star Trek, and that EU is separate universe like Star Trek EU?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Star Wars EU is simply not canon, as stated by Lucas and few other people.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... canon.html

Read it.

Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?

I am not fan of anybody. Your logic is flawed, your arguments are flawed, your debating tactics are dishonest, you are liar and no amount of wanking will change that. You are not debating, you just repeat what others (Wong, SDNers, other Warsies) said. You try to reinterpret anything that does not support your wievs, or ignore it if you can't reinterpret it - but that is standard Warsie tactics. So stop trolling and stick to discussion. You have all quotes on that link, now it's your turn. Try to prove that Leland Chee overrides both Lucas and Roffman. And what about fact that Lucas said that he based canon policy on that of Star Trek, and that EU is separate universe like Star Trek EU?

How is your post relevant at all? The fact is that Leland Chase is basically in charge of Star Wars canon, and his word > yours or darkstar's in terms of canon. He also works personally with George Lucas, and states that the EU is not separate from GL's vision of Star Wars. Leland Chase obviously knows more about GL than you or picard do, so stop trying to make yourself seem more knowledgeable than you really are.

[Admiral Breetai]

so SWSt if Lucas came out in an interview and said that a Sovereign with say a wolf pack of Defiants as back up could of casually annihilated the force at Endor

you'd say this wasn't true because of the EU and chee?

you'd refute the mans statement himself..yes or no stop dodging

[2046]

I can read, darkstar. Leland Chase disagreed with your canon policy...personally!

He disagreed with the statement that Lucas himself made. We win.

You want to go with the low end of Star Trek, though?

What the hell are you talking about?

The breen attack on Earth also shows quite clearly high kiloton level explosions...not megaton level explosions.

And you can prove that the damage shown was caused by starship weaponry, I presume?

How do you rationalize these, without resorting to ad hominems?

I don't need ad hominems, nor do I need to rationalize the EU. It is not the same universe as the Star Wars of Lucas, ergo it is meaningless to me.

Basically, you bringing up EU junk would be like me bringing up JJ-Trek and trying to apply it to Roddenberry-Trek. In other words, it's just silly.

[Mike DiCenso]

Basically, you bringing up EU junk would be like me bringing up JJ-Trek and trying to apply it to Roddenberry-Trek. In other words, it's just silly.

I have to disagree with this comparison somewhat. Where as it can be argued that Lucas is stating his proper story of Star Wars is seperate from the EU version, the AbrahamTrek and RoddenberryTrek are not quite so seperate. The Narada (along with Nero and the rest of the crew, Jellyfish, Spock-Prime, and USS Kelvin are all from what you call Roddenberry-Trek. They overlap, because elements from the original are in the new timeline/reality as an integral part of the story and are responsible for the Alt timeline's being created, again as an integral part of the storyline.

That being the case, we can now say that the Kelvin-type starship existed in the 2230's, the Romulans were able to build 8-10 km starships, ships are able to survive trips through artifical black holes, and red matter also exists in the Prime timeline in the 2380's.
-Mike

[Picard]

How is your post relevant at all? The fact is that Leland Chase is basically in charge of Star Wars canon, and his word > yours or darkstar's in terms of canon. He also works personally with George Lucas, and states that the EU is not separate from GL's vision of Star Wars. Leland Chase obviously knows more about GL than you or picard do, so stop trying to make yourself seem more knowledgeable than you really are.

Lucas disagrees, which means that Chee's comment is irrelevant.

And you can prove that the damage shown was caused by starship weaponry, I presume?

Or that it was not merely result of planetary shield "bleedthrought".