Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[Mike DiCenso]

So what's your take on Threepio's arm damage, Praeothmin? Is that merely a matter of connecting some coded wires after plugging the arm back into a mechanical interface, or is it something more involved as repairs go?
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

Remember AotC?

C3PO's head was ripped of his body and attached to the body of a battle droid while to his body the head of a battle droid was attached. Both was done from another robot at a production line where only battle droids were assembled.

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      • • 

If that is not a fine example for how modular droids in Star Wars are and how easy it is to repair them ...

[Lucky]

That does not requirer the knowledge on theory. You don't need to know the why to know that will work, or do that.

Yes it does.
If you have no knowledge of what the capacitors do, you're likely to replace them with any fitting capacitors, without knowing how resistant they need to be, or that without the same capacitance level, your CPU power regulator will do jack shit, and most likely burn out your CPU, or you wouldn't know that you can create equivalence capacitance using parallel capacitors, and you certainly wouldn't know how to use the formula to find out which capacitors you may use in parallel...
So yes, you very, very much need to know at least the basic theory behind the workings of the circuit you are repairing...

And, I know first hand Luke doesn't need to know why it works to do that. He just needs to know how to do it. It's like making fire. Cave men only needed to know that if they did X then Y would happen.

I think we are just misunderstanding each other.

[Praeothmin]

So what's your take on Threepio's arm damage, Praeothmin? Is that merely a matter of connecting some coded wires after plugging the arm back into a mechanical interface, or is it something more involved as repairs go?

If the arm was blown off, you'll need to resolder the wires, recreate the mechanical connections, and cehck the adjacent circuits to see if there weren't any surges created by the damage, and to make sure each circuit works well.

If that is not a fine example for how modular droids in Star Wars are and how easy it is to repair them

This is a perfect example of the Droid modularity in SW, but no, it is not a perfect example of how easy they are to repair, it is a perfect example of how easy it is to swap parts.
Neither heads were damaged when they were disconnected, which seems to indicate that Droid heads are like controllers on an X-Box: pull the plug and replace it with another one.
If C3PO's head had been exploded, wires hanging out, the circuit boards being cracked, and all the factory had done was to solder the parts toghether, then you would have a point.
But what this is akin to in RL is you swapping your functioning Graphic card for another type, or a more powerful one in your PC.
Now, if you didn't have another Graphic card to replace the broken one with, then you'd need to do what I did with my motherboard, and find out what is wrong with it, and if it can be repaired.

Electronics repairs do not simply consist of replacing parts and then assuming the circuit works.
You need to make sure all the chips work, that the correct voltage is found in the correct "branches", that no short-circuit exists, unless your goal is to fry your circuit, etc, etc...

And Lucky, no, you cannot gain the knowledge of capacitance equivalence without knowing the basic theory behind the concept, which is what are capacitors, what do they do in a circuit, why are they important, why can I not simply solder any capacitor in place of the one that was broken, etc...

[KirkSkyWalker]

What you're wanting to describe is magical "action at a distance." Basically the creation of an invisible extension of matter/energy that acts like a stick with a missing middle. And that doesn't really fit anything in particular.

More like a stick with missing mass, but the EM energy is still there.
It fits everything, in particular as well as in general: no magic, just plain physics.

A stick isn't solid due to the simple presence of the stick itself (i.e. its mass), but solely due to the invisible, massless energy radiated by its sub-atomic particles-- ie. the like-charges repel each other, while the opposite ones attract.
The electrons in the stick repel each other due to their negatively-charged fields, while the protons attract the electrons (and vice-versa) with their positively-charged fields (while the protons likewise repel other protons).

In short, the stick's solid structure is entirely due to the invisible fields around the protons and electrons in the stick; and likewise even the stick itself is only visible , because the electron-fields absorb and re-emit light which strikes them.

The stick's mass has nothing to do with it-- just the EM-energy; if the electrons in the stick suddenly bound with the protons to form neutrons, then the neutrons would all just fall apart-- invisibly, and anything the stick was holding up would simply fall.

And it doesn't matter that these charged-fields radiate omnidirectionally according to the basic inverse-square law; that's only in their natural state, but they can be artificially manipulated in order to create the same effect as a solid object, by using only the energy-- not the mass. Therefore a wall of negatively-charged energy, would be just as solid as a real one: or even more so, according to the potential energy of the charge in comparison.
This seems to be how particle-shields work: i.e. if you shoot a bullet at it, then the negative charges in the bullet's electrons will repel those in the shield, just like if you shot a brick wall.

Everything in the SW universe behaves according these principles (i.e. no FTL tech other than hyperspace, no deflectors-beams, etc) so it checks out perfectly.
In contast, we know that the ST universe uses graviton-based technology (e.g. FTL weapons, FTL deflector-beams as well as tractor-beams, express statements etc).

And that is the simplest explanation (that makes sense according to the facts presented in the canon for both universes, anyway); there's nothing simpler than the very same forces that already exist in every object, and which make up the world as we know it.

Just like the explanation that SW uses fusion, while ST uses anti-matter; there's no need for the creation of weird "hypermatter" to explain how SW weapons supposedly produce energy-yields that they clearly don't.

[Lucky]

If the arm was blown off, you'll need to resolder the wires, recreate the mechanical connections, and cehck the adjacent circuits to see if there weren't any surges created by the damage, and to make sure each circuit works well.

Don't forget about Luke needing to fix the broken shell as well.

And Lucky, no, you cannot gain the knowledge of capacitance equivalence without knowing the basic theory behind the concept, which is what are capacitors, what do they do in a circuit, why are they important, why can I not simply solder any capacitor in place of the one that was broken, etc...

You don't need to know what the numbers mean. You just need to know the formula, and how to apply it. No need to have any idea what a capacitor, resister, transistor... does. It's not like having to design it from scratch.

[Praeothmin]

You don't need to know what the numbers mean. You just need to know the formula, and how to apply it. No need to have any idea what a capacitor, resister, transistor... does. It's not like having to design it from scratch.

If you do not know the basic theory behind it, you would never even know you need to, or can, apply capacitor equivalence calculations to find out what capacitors to solder in parallel in order to fix your circuit.
If you do not know the theory, you look at the burned capacitor, try and fail to find the equivalent, and then fail to perform the repairs when you fail to realize you can instead use parallel capacitors to the same effect...

[KirkSkyWalker]

You fail to understand the ol' Yankee "know-how" behind our corporate paradise...

[Praeothmin]

Well, while being funny, this comic strip shows us a bad repair technician's answer to an intelligent question... :)

[KirkSkyWalker]

Well, while being funny, this comic strip shows us a bad repair technician's answer to an intelligent question... :)

That's the whole idea behind Dilbert , i.e. it's a spoof on corporate-politics, and that huge corporations work on mindless bureaucracy: so the emphasis is on following brainless rules and avoiding both effort and trouble, while individual initiative is punished.

Dilbert is also based on avoiding having to be funny, and instead just writing bad jokes-- usually about someone getting physically hurt or threatened for doing something that makes sense in a sane environment, but stepping on the wrong toes in the corporate environment; and so I tried to duplicate that as well. I didn't think it was that funny, except in the sense of being accurate "Dilbert-ness."

(Just for clarification: yes, I changed the dialogue from the original strip, shown here)



On the bright side, the dialogue is pretty interchangeable.

[Lucky]

You don't need to know what the numbers mean. You just need to know the formula, and how to apply it. No need to have any idea what a capacitor, resister, transistor... does. It's not like having to design it from scratch.

If you do not know the basic theory behind it, you would never even know you need to, or can, apply capacitor equivalence calculations to find out what capacitors to solder in parallel in order to fix your circuit.
If you do not know the theory, you look at the burned capacitor, try and fail to find the equivalent, and then fail to perform the repairs when you fail to realize you can instead use parallel capacitors to the same effect...

You seem to be running on the assumption no one would have bothered to make sure Luke didn't kill himself, or destroy the equipment.

All they would need to do is tell Luke that if he did this, that, and the other thing it will work, but they do not need to explain why it works.

[KirkSkyWalker]

You don't need to know what the numbers mean. You just need to know the formula, and how to apply it. No need to have any idea what a capacitor, resister, transistor... does. It's not like having to design it from scratch.

If you do not know the basic theory behind it, you would never even know you need to, or can, apply capacitor equivalence calculations to find out what capacitors to solder in parallel in order to fix your circuit.
If you do not know the theory, you look at the burned capacitor, try and fail to find the equivalent, and then fail to perform the repairs when you fail to realize you can instead use parallel capacitors to the same effect...

You seem to be running on the assumption no one would have bothered to make sure Luke didn't kill himself, or destroy the equipment.

All they would need to do is tell Luke that if he did this, that, and the other thing it will work, but they do not need to explain why it works.

Agreed: there are endless examples that separate the technician from the technology-- SDN is one of them, i.e. a place rife with professional technies who don't have a clue about the concept, whereas Darkstar and G2K can make fools of them all. One doesn't need to know the concept in order to apply it, any more than one needs to be a watch-maker in order to read one... or an aerospace scientist in order to fly, as insects and birds prove regularly. All it takes, is someone to show you how it's done in a task-oriented manner, and a monkey could do it. After all, chimps have regularly piloted space-craft or NASA.
In fact, the more technical a civilization becomes, the less one can possibly know about various trades. However do NOT understimate farm-boys, who are often the best at understanding concepts, because they have to know the greatest number of different things that go into running a farm; for example, Philo Farnsworth was a farm-boy... who invented television while plowing. In contrast, more advanced professions have narrower knowledge.
So Luke could very well have a wide array of in-depth knowledge of such things as droid-repair, flying... and power-converters. Meanwhile the Empire's finest engineers could have extensive technical knowledge, but not have the sense to put a simple grate over a stupid thermal exhaust-port... just like NASA's "Challenger" space-shuttle technicians didn't have the sense to maintain the temperature at above-freezing on some stupid O-rings, or the WTC engineers didn't realize that a plane hitting the buildings would have fuel in it.

[Lucky]

Agreed: there are endless examples that separate the technician from the technology-- SDN is one of them, i.e. a place rife with professional technies who don't have a clue about the concept, whereas Darkstar and G2K can make fools of them all. One doesn't need to know the concept in order to apply it, any more than one needs to be a watch-maker in order to read one... or an aerospace scientist in order to fly, as insects and birds prove regularly. All it takes, is someone to show you how it's done in a task-oriented manner, and a monkey could do it. After all, chimps have regularly piloted space-craft or NASA.
In fact, the more technical a civilization becomes, the less one can possibly know about various trades. However do NOT understimate farm-boys, who are often the best at understanding concepts, because they have to know the greatest number of different things that go into running a farm; for example, Philo Farnsworth was a farm-boy... who invented television while plowing. In contrast, more advanced professions have narrower knowledge.
So Luke could very well have a wide array of in-depth knowledge of such things as droid-repair, flying... and power-converters. Meanwhile the Empire's finest engineers could have extensive technical knowledge, but not have the sense to put a simple grate over a stupid thermal exhaust-port... just like NASA's "Challenger" space-shuttle technicians didn't have the sense to maintain the temperature at above-freezing on some stupid O-rings, or the WTC engineers didn't realize that a plane hitting the buildings would have fuel in it.

But we are never show what kind of schooling Luke had, and it certainly appears Luke's uncle wants him to stay on the farm, and out of the limelight.

[Picard]

If the arm was blown off, you'll need to resolder the wires, recreate the mechanical connections, and cehck the adjacent circuits to see if there weren't any surges created by the damage, and to make sure each circuit works well.

If you are talking about ANH, novelization states that arm just disconnected to prevent damage.

[Who is like God arbour]

From the novel:

• • • • • They had succeeded in vacating the canyon before the Tusken Raiders could return in force. Under Kenobi's direction, Luke left a trail behind them so confusing that not even a hypernasal jawa could have followed it.
          Luke spent several hours ignoring the temptations of Kenobi's cave. Instead he remained in the corner which was equipped as a compact yet complete repair shop, working to fix Threepio's severed arm.
          Fortunately, the automatic overload disconnects had given way under the severe strain, sealing electronic nerves and ganglia without real damage. Repair was merely a matter of reattaching the limb to the shoulder, then activating the self-reseals.
          Had the arm been broken in mid-'bone' instead of at a joint, such repairs would have been impossible save at a factory shop.

From the movie: