Commentary: Can you replicate a spacesuit?

[Roondar]

Well, let's see...

Gold is still valuable. We know that from "The Perfect Mate", in addition to "The Last Outpost".

Dilithium can't be replicated. It's a naturally occurring mineral, so if it's just a matter of transmuting elements and then assembling them, it shouldn't be a problem to replicate. On the other hand, if it's a element (like an isotope of lithium), then it would be impossible to replicate if the replicator can't transmute elements.

In fact, the need for mining operations in general refutes the idea that they can just replicate any element they need. Why mine for "vendarite" or "magnesite" if you can just replicate the component elements. The energy cost isn't much of an excuse, since mines are often in different systems from the point of use: I can't imagine the cost of replication being substantially higher than the cost of producing antimatter fuel for the freighter.

Besides, replicators have a track record of having more trouble with replication as the scale of the item to be replicated gets smaller. They can replicate Borg nanoprobes, which are about the size of a blood cell, but they manufacture medical nanites, which are small enough to enter cells. They can't replicate vaccines, since they're constantly transporting them by starship. Anything smaller than a blood cell seems to be a problem for replicators, and elemental transmutation would require accuracy at a sub-atomic scale.

Which is of course why they can't replicate computer controlled devices. Or why the crew can only replicate objects not made of valuable substances.

Except they can (and do). The mere fact they can replicate a computer controlled phaser bot suggests you are off the mark. And that is only one example of many. In fact, when Neelix required a new set of lungs the only reason they could not be replicated (as opposed to other replacement organs) was that they did not have a replicator pattern of his lungs on file.

Besides, the inability to replicate certain forms of matter does not mean the rest is not done through transmutation. It is quite possible their technology has trouble with specific atoms/materials (for instance, they don't have a proper pattern for it for whatever reason) yet can transmute other atoms/materials fine.

Heck, it's clearly suggested during Voyager and DS9 that Starships are pretty much built from replicated materials. That would hardly make sense to do from any ecomical point of view if all replicators do is rearange pre-existing matter.

Besides, if they do not have technology that can build stuff on a sub-atom level, then they could never ever make working transporters. Especially not ones that can beam over functioning computer devices. Or living beings.

[Ted C]

They can't replicate vaccines, since they're constantly transporting them by starship.

You're being a bit non-specfic and possibly anti-chronological as well here. Usually the only reference to needing to transport vaccines comes from the TOS-era, specifically "Obsession", where the USS Yorktown and Enterprise were to rendezvous so that a vaccine could be delivered in a timely manner to a colony in need. Replication technology does not seem to have been available or at least was not anywhere nearly as fully developed as it is in the TNG-era.
-Mike

The vaccine needed in "Code of Honor" would be a specific TNG example.
Romulan ribosomes -- from "The Enemy" -- would be another.

[The Elder Dwoof]

And if gold would not be replicable and would have a significant worth, why would they use it in their communicators?

Miliatary tradition.

Example: A First Lt's rank insignia in the army is made of gold, to signify how valuable a new officer is considered to be. Once they are promoted to 2nd Lt, the insignias change to silver.

In Starfleet, the communicator badge is also an insignia, and including gold in it is probably to symbolise the pride one has in one's ship and in Starfleet in general.

[The Elder Dwoof]

They can't replicate vaccines, since they're constantly transporting them by starship.

You're being a bit non-specfic and possibly anti-chronological as well here. Usually the only reference to needing to transport vaccines comes from the TOS-era, specifically "Obsession", where the USS Yorktown and Enterprise were to rendezvous so that a vaccine could be delivered in a timely manner to a colony in need. Replication technology does not seem to have been available or at least was not anywhere nearly as fully developed as it is in the TNG-era.
-Mike

The vaccine needed in "Code of Honor" would be a specific TNG example.
Romulan ribosomes -- from "The Enemy" -- would be another.

In fact, ANYTHING containing genetic material would have problems with replication, due to the single bit error problem. And I don't think they can replicate LIVING things, either, but only dead flesh (meat)

[Mike DiCenso]

Not necessarily, for replicators to be able to make something, they often need a pattern, in the case above, it may be that making a particular ribosome or vaccine is not possible due to a lack of an accurate pattern to work from.

We know from "The Defector" that Romulan ale could not be replicated simply because there was no pattern available for the replicators to work from.

Certainly Worf's new spinal column as seen in "Ethics" was replicated, and it definitely works as well as any natural one as we've seen Worf up and about and in combat many times since then without an issue. So there may be other factors than the replicators are simply unable to manufacture the items in question. Given the apparent rarity of the vaccine in question from "Code of Honor", it is probably not available in sufficent quantity for a pattern to be created.

Another thing to consider, although Earth may not operate on our modern day understanding of economics, there are other Federation members as well as outside powers, like the Ferengi, that do, and it may also be that some commodities are proprietory, and thus may not be legally replicatable.
-Mike

[The Elder Dwoof]

Not necessarily, for replicators to be able to make something, they often need a pattern, in the case above, it may be that making a particular ribosome or vaccine is not possible due to a lack of an accurate pattern to work from.

We know from "The Defector" that Romulan could not be replicated simply because there was no pattern available for the replicators to work from.

Certainly Worf's new spinal column as seen in "Ethics" was replicated, and it definitely works as well as any natural one as we've seen Worf up and about and in combat many times since then without an issue. So there may be other factors than the replicators are simply unable to manufacture the items in question. Given the apparent rarity of the vaccine in question from "Code of Honor", it is probably not available in sufficent quantity for a pattern to be created.

Another thing to consider, although Earth may not operate on our modern day understanding of economics, there are other Federation members as well as outside powers, like the Ferengi, that do, and it may also be that some commodities are proprietory, and thus may not be legally replicatable.
-Mike

Heh..I don't think you can "copyright" an element on the periodic table.

The replicated spine was a macroscopic item where a few atoms out of place wouldn't cause it to stop functioning as bone, while the romulan ribosomes were critically important, and no errors in the genetic code would be tolerable.

From what I can tell, if the exact molecular structure is critical (They DID try to replicate the vaccine, by the way, IIRC, and it didnt' work) then the replicator is unsuitable.

The borg Nanoprobes, which are usually self replicating and self repairing, had much more tolerance to replicator error than the much smaller and simpler medical nanoprobes.

[Roondar]

Not necessarily, for replicators to be able to make something, they often need a pattern, in the case above, it may be that making a particular ribosome or vaccine is not possible due to a lack of an accurate pattern to work from.

We know from "The Defector" that Romulan could not be replicated simply because there was no pattern available for the replicators to work from.

Certainly Worf's new spinal column as seen in "Ethics" was replicated, and it definitely works as well as any natural one as we've seen Worf up and about and in combat many times since then without an issue. So there may be other factors than the replicators are simply unable to manufacture the items in question. Given the apparent rarity of the vaccine in question from "Code of Honor", it is probably not available in sufficent quantity for a pattern to be created.

Another thing to consider, although Earth may not operate on our modern day understanding of economics, there are other Federation members as well as outside powers, like the Ferengi, that do, and it may also be that some commodities are proprietory, and thus may not be legally replicatable.
-Mike

Heh..I don't think you can "copyright" an element on the periodic table.

The replicated spine was a macroscopic item where a few atoms out of place wouldn't cause it to stop functioning as bone, while the romulan ribosomes were critically important, and no errors in the genetic code would be tolerable.

From what I can tell, if the exact molecular structure is critical (They DID try to replicate the vaccine, by the way, IIRC, and it didnt' work) then the replicator is unsuitable.

The borg Nanoprobes, which are usually self replicating and self repairing, had much more tolerance to replicator error than the much smaller and simpler medical nanoprobes.

That doesn't really make sense though, because if that where true they could never replicate anything that contains sophisticated electronics. And they have done so.

Secondly, we already know they have something that can take an object, convert it into an energy pattern and then convert it back to said object. Now, the replicators obviously are not exactly the same as transporters but if the Federation can build a device to disassemble pretty much any object (limited by size only) and then reassemble it elsewhere they quite obviously do have the tech to build something up from scratch at sub-molecule scales.

Otherwise, the second Quark says "beam me up" he loses a whole lot of Latinum ;)

[The Elder Dwoof]

That doesn't really make sense though, because if that where true they could never replicate anything that contains sophisticated electronics. And they have done so.

Except that electronics don't typically have nanoscale tolerances. Even microcircuits have connections and conductors dozens (at least) of atoms thick. When you get down to Nanoscale (Nanoprobes, Nannites, Genes) one atom out of place and the whole thing doesn't work.

As for beaming, the main difference between Replicators and Transporters seems to be that Replicators keep their matter store in suspension, while Transporters quickly move the matter from one place to another...when attempting to replicate, say, latinum, you are trying to BUILD latinum atoms, whereas with the transporter, you are simply MOVING an existing atom. The two technologies ARE related (As noted, a replicator can be converted into an emergency transporter), but they are not the same.

Thus Quark gets to keep his latinum when beaming, but he can't just replicate it at will.

[Cpl Kendall]

Example: A First Lt's rank insignia in the army is made of gold, to signify how valuable a new officer is considered to be. Once they are promoted to 2nd Lt, the insignias change to silver.

You've got it the wrong way around. A US 2 Lt's rank pips are gold, a First Lt's are silver. And you go from 2 Lt to 1 Lt, not the other way around.

[Mike DiCenso]

Not necessarily, for replicators to be able to make something, they often need a pattern, in the case above, it may be that making a particular ribosome or vaccine is not possible due to a lack of an accurate pattern to work from.

We know from "The Defector" that Romulan could not be replicated simply because there was no pattern available for the replicators to work from.

Certainly Worf's new spinal column as seen in "Ethics" was replicated, and it definitely works as well as any natural one as we've seen Worf up and about and in combat many times since then without an issue. So there may be other factors than the replicators are simply unable to manufacture the items in question. Given the apparent rarity of the vaccine in question from "Code of Honor", it is probably not available in sufficent quantity for a pattern to be created.

Another thing to consider, although Earth may not operate on our modern day understanding of economics, there are other Federation members as well as outside powers, like the Ferengi, that do, and it may also be that some commodities are proprietory, and thus may not be legally replicatable.
-Mike

Heh..I don't think you can "copyright" an element on the periodic table.

The replicated spine was a macroscopic item where a few atoms out of place wouldn't cause it to stop functioning as bone, while the romulan ribosomes were critically important, and no errors in the genetic code would be tolerable.

From what I can tell, if the exact molecular structure is critical (They DID try to replicate the vaccine, by the way, IIRC, and it didnt' work) then the replicator is unsuitable.

The borg Nanoprobes, which are usually self replicating and self repairing, had much more tolerance to replicator error than the much smaller and simpler medical nanoprobes.

I'am not talking about the copyrighting of elements, I'am talking about the copyrighting of ways in which said elements are combined together in various chemical processes to make a particular thing, like a vaccine. In the case of Romulan ale, it is illegal to import the beverage into the Federation, and there might be a probition on the replication of it as well, hence it does not have a replicator pattern available.

Also Worf's replicated spine might have more tolerance initially, but in the long run things like genetic error can lead to Worf having to deal with a host of genetic diseases, like cancer. No, the replication process has to have a very small amount of error, or Worf would have problems. In addition, it was his whole spine that was replaced, including the nerve and cartilage tissues.

As for the replication of the Ligonian vaccine, the Ligonian sample was too small apparently for them to make a stable replicated copy:


CRUSHER: The vaccine, sir.
PICARD: Yes, Doctor?
CRUSHER: The vaccine. I'm a physician, I've seen death, but not on the scale this could mean.
PICARD: You were testing if you can replicate the vaccine.
CRUSHER: And we can't. The sample works fine when used as an injection, but it becomes unstable when we try to replicate it. You must get the vaccine from the planet, Captain. As much as you can. Immediately.

The implication here is that other vaccines and medicines have been replicated.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Worf's replacement spine was replicated with an experimental, ethically dubious piece of technology called a "genotronic replicator," which we may expect to function somewhat differently than a standard replicator. Standard replicators do seem to have difficulty with precise molecular control. I'd imagine things like weapons, which we know the replicator can readily produce as per "Field of Fire," "Counterpoint" and others, allow for a greater margin of error in their replication, since unlike DNA, a weapon doesn't have to have a perfect molecular structure in order to work properly. Starfleet standard replicators undoubtedly produce weapons with operational and compositional defects from time to time (like the rifle which broke in half when Picard clubbed a Reman with it in Nemesis)

[Mike DiCenso]

I think though, that this gets away from the original thread's question: "Can you replicate a spacesuit?". I think, that if you can replicate something as sophisticated as a phaser, then replicating the parts for a spacesuit, depending on it's complexity, is very doable, especially if we are talking a relatively primitive spacesuit, like our current-day Russian Orlan and U.S. EMUs.
-Mike

[The Elder Dwoof]

I think though, that this gets away from the original thread's question: "Can you replicate a spacesuit?". I think, that if you can replicate something as sophisticated as a phaser, then replicating the parts for a spacesuit, depending on it's complexity, is very doable, especially if we are talking a relatively primitive spacesuit, like our current-day Russian Orlan and U.S. EMUs.
-Mike

Well, the example I used in the original MST3K spoof (See OP) was Yuri Gagarin's suit.

[Roondar]

That doesn't really make sense though, because if that where true they could never replicate anything that contains sophisticated electronics. And they have done so.

Except that electronics don't typically have nanoscale tolerances. Even microcircuits have connections and conductors dozens (at least) of atoms thick. When you get down to Nanoscale (Nanoprobes, Nannites, Genes) one atom out of place and the whole thing doesn't work.

As for beaming, the main difference between Replicators and Transporters seems to be that Replicators keep their matter store in suspension, while Transporters quickly move the matter from one place to another...when attempting to replicate, say, latinum, you are trying to BUILD latinum atoms, whereas with the transporter, you are simply MOVING an existing atom. The two technologies ARE related (As noted, a replicator can be converted into an emergency transporter), but they are not the same.

Thus Quark gets to keep his latinum when beaming, but he can't just replicate it at will.

Transporters don't move matter. They convert it to energy and then rebuild it later on. Which, for electronic components which are on at the time of transport does require sub-atom scale accuracy or your tricorder would crash (best case) or break (also somewhat likely) when you beam it over while active.

[Roondar]

Worf's replacement spine was replicated with an experimental, ethically dubious piece of technology called a "genotronic replicator," which we may expect to function somewhat differently than a standard replicator. Standard replicators do seem to have difficulty with precise molecular control. I'd imagine things like weapons, which we know the replicator can readily produce as per "Field of Fire," "Counterpoint" and others, allow for a greater margin of error in their replication, since unlike DNA, a weapon doesn't have to have a perfect molecular structure in order to work properly. Starfleet standard replicators undoubtedly produce weapons with operational and compositional defects from time to time (like the rifle which broke in half when Picard clubbed a Reman with it in Nemesis)

Two minor things:

1) By the time Voyager came around no one questioned the ability to replicate organs. It was the first idea they had when Neelix lost his lungs and as we know, the only reason they couldn't was that they didn't have his lungs on file as a replicator pattern (per the doctor).

2) You are underestimating the precision needed to make functional computer technology. A single molecule might not always cause a problem, but by the time you have so many errors the stuff physically breaks when it really shouldn't your onboard computers and other high-tech electronics are not going to still work.

Computers today are already quite close to requiring molecule scale accuracy to being build (IBM was building transitors in 2002 that where 6 nm wide and had a 4 nm wide silicon 'body' in them. A single silicon atom is 117 picometers wide, or 0,17 nm.)

By now there is research done into transistors that are only one atom thick (http://nanotechnologytoday.blogspot.com ... istor.html) and some fifty atoms wide. As you see, they actually made one of these transitors. And this is using technology available right now. Placing a single wrong molecule in a transistor like that can easily cause it to stop working.