Sovereign vs 1 Star Destroyer?

[GStone]

And I don't believe for one second that these HTLs power can be turned down 1 million times (which is what it would need to be for 200 Gigaton guns to fire only in the Kilotons range).

What you believe is irrelevant. Death Star scaled it's shots down to Mon Calamari cruisers.

A giant space station isn't a troop transport space ship.

[mr.dark]

Fiery explosions like these:

Quite like those, yes.

If your argument is that "fiery" explosions preclude the possibility of kiloton level firepower for SW fighters you should at least have the honesty of applying the same criteria to ST ships.

The problem is the question of where the fiery explosion is coming from - although the problem of fiery explosions, rather than incandescent flashes of light, being the standard produces its own problems.

Is the fiery explosion something in or on the hull exploding? Because it doesn't look like a shield interaction to me. In all the Star Trek cases you've displayed, I believe fiery explosions are an indication of something on or within the hull being damaged, and in one of the Star Wars cases - namely those dealing with the Death Star - we have the good luck to look in on what's happening on the other side of the fiery surface explosions, and it seems to again correspond to destructive effects.

And this is a problem, because those are fighters attacking.

Hello all, why is fighters attacking causing damage with kiloton range weaponry a problem? could someone with a good knowledge of a new hope fill me in on the nature of the deathstar shield if that's the issue.

Also if there's any doubt that kiloton range weaponry on a fighter is reasonable i bring you.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/f-84e.htm

The F-84, conceived as a jet successor to the P-47, was the USAF's first post-war fighter. The prototype's initial flight was on February 28, 1946, and by the time production ceased in 1953, approximately 4,450 "straight-wing" F-84s (in contrast to the swept-wing F-84F) had been built. Many were supplied to allied nations under the Mutual Assistance Program. During its service life, it became the first USAF jet fighter capable of carrying a tactical nuclear weapon. The Thunderjet pioneered aerial refueling for fighter aircraft when aircraft from the 31st Fighter Escort Wing flew nonstop from Turner AFB, Georgia, to the Far East as part of Operation Fox Peter One in 1952.

And this was with technology that both trek and wars would laugh at.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Hello all, why is fighters attacking causing damage with kiloton range weaponry a problem? could someone with a good knowledge of a new hope fill me in on the nature of the deathstar shield if that's the issue.

Even I consider this a potential problem, although we can hem and haw to fill in the gaps a bit to fit my favored interpretations of Star Wars capital ship firepower.

Think about it for a minute...

100 of ISDs point defense turbolasers which are in the megaton range (compared with 6Mt acclamator)

What should "100 of" megaton range weapons with high rates of fire do to a ship which has surface damage caused to it by kiloton range weapons?

Also if there's any doubt that kiloton range weaponry on a fighter is reasonable i bring you.

And this was with technology that both trek and wars would laugh at.

And a proton torpedo is smaller, faster, and more precise than those munitions. IMO, it's quite clearly superior technology there.

[mr.dark]

I thought the whole point of the snub fighters attacking was so they could attack under the shield. Hence the 'accelerate to attack speed' after they glide leisurely up to palpatine's iron testicle and at the time when they'd got through the shield. Where as capital ships would have to blast their way through the shield.

Although i suppose it's just conceivable we could say it's unshielded, which is insane as they can definitely shield things that big and remotely to boot (return of the jedi)

As i said i'm wanting to hear from someone who's watched a new hope recently.

[Kane Starkiller]

The problem is the question of where the fiery explosion is coming from - although the problem of fiery explosions, rather than incandescent flashes of light, being the standard produces its own problems.

Is the fiery explosion something in or on the hull exploding? Because it doesn't look like a shield interaction to me. In all the Star Trek cases you've displayed, I believe fiery explosions are an indication of something on or within the hull being damaged, and in one of the Star Wars cases - namely those dealing with the Death Star - we have the good luck to look in on what's happening on the other side of the fiery surface explosions, and it seems to again correspond to destructive effects.

And this is a problem, because those are fighters attacking.

Destructive effects like these:

That's Scimitars disruptors hitting the bridge. Looks no more powerful than any of the fighter attacks on the Death Star. And no more fiery.

What should "100 of" megaton range weapons with high rates of fire do to a ship which has surface damage caused to it by kiloton range weapons?

Except we know that Death Star can withstand a planet blowing up in it's face from the films and recent novels. And we know Dodona explicitly states Death Star's defense is centered around large scale attack which means fighters most likely passed through "seams" in the shields like that "magnetic" field they were talking about.
Again I could mention much worse problems in Star Trek. Like how come several shots on effectively unshielded runabouts fired by Dominion attack ships in "The Jem'Hadar" didn't cause any visible damage to them? Are main weapons on Jem'Hadar fighters also limited to below kiloton range?

A giant space station isn't a troop transport space ship.

No shit. What does that have to do with Praeothmin's belief of what is and isn't possible being irrelevant?

[Praeothmin]

Also if there's any doubt that kiloton range weaponry on a fighter is reasonable i bring you

I have absolutely no problem believing their missiles are in the Kiloton range, alas, the books state that it is their Laser weapons that are in the Kiloton range.

I thought the whole point of the snub fighters attacking was so they could attack under the shield. Hence the 'accelerate to attack speed' after they glide leisurely up to palpatine's iron testicle and at the time when they'd got through the shield. Where as capital ships would have to blast their way through the shield.

And therein lies the problem.
If the Fighter's main weapons, their energy weapons which we see them use so often, are only in the Kiloton range, how could they hope to damage armor (Capital ship armor, Death Star armor) stated by the SW side as being able to resist Megaton, or even Gigaton level weapons?
Note that the fighters attacking the DS used only their Laser weaponry when attacking the armored surface of the battle station.
And apart from that big explosion (still sub-Kiloton level) occuring when Luke hits a power relay (novelisation I believe), all the other explosions are relatively small.

Do you think that ISD will have weapons many orders of magnitude lesser than Acclamator?

No, but judging from the movies, no ISD ever demonstrated that level of Firepower.
Even the ships attacking each other in RotS never show us anything remotely close to Kiloton level shots.

What you believe is irrelevant. Death Star scaled it's shots down to Mon Calamari cruisers.

Considering it vaporized it, how do you know it was turned down to 1 millionth of its full power?

[GStone]

A giant space station isn't a troop transport space ship.

No shit. What does that have to do with Praeothmin's belief of what is and isn't possible being irrelevant?

Because they aren't the same. You continue to assume that a superlaser and a turbolaser are the same except for the scale used. All there is in common is the word laser, that it's an energy weapon and the color is green (though energy weapons in Wars have also been red and blue, too). If you want to bring in recent novels, there's the one about the DS that gives evidence that the SL uses a techie method and not plain brute force.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And therein lies the problem.
If the Fighter's main weapons, their energy weapons which we see them use so often, are only in the Kiloton range, how could they hope to damage armor (Capital ship armor, Death Star armor) stated by the SW side as being able to resist Megaton, or even Gigaton level weapons?
Note that the fighters attacking the DS used only their Laser weaponry when attacking the armored surface of the battle station.
And apart from that big explosion (still sub-Kiloton level) occuring when Luke hits a power relay (novelisation I believe), all the other explosions are relatively small.

Well, if the explosions are small, it's logically because the hull has some good temperature tolerances, and may be able to spread the energy through the plating.

However, looking at ROTS, and how the cannoneers can blow up the thick and armoured parts of the Venator and Invisible Hand, and when we see the rather moderate domage they do on non armoured sections and rooms containing atmosphere, I don't see why the starfighters would need to possess anything higher to hit the armour of station which is supposed to have a gazillon of cannons to destroy enemy ships, and some thick shield surrounding it.
The armour would not need to be particularily tough when the station has a vast array of long range weapons and a shield to be sure no ship becomes a menace.

Hell, even the novel Death Star states that with such and so much weapons, not even a fleet of super star destroyers could ever threaten the battle station.

[Praeothmin]

Like how come several shots on effectively unshielded runabouts fired by Dominion attack ships in "The Jem'Hadar" didn't cause any visible damage to them? Are main weapons on Jem'Hadar fighters also limited to below kiloton range?

Well, using SDN logic, this one is easy.
You have two (and only two) posibble explanations:
1- This simply means that Runabouts have hulls that can withstand Megatons range of fire power;

or

2- The Jem'Hadar had lowered the power of their weapons because they (incorrectly, I agree) thought that they did not need anything more powerful to destroy the runabouts.

I have problems believing the two explanations above, of course.
But its the kind of explanations I've been seeing many times to defend the low yields seen in the SW movies when compared to the ICS.
And Kane, I do agree there are probably more of this type of problems in ST, after the franchise spans 5 series, many hundreds of hours of material written by many different writers.
However, we are not the ones defending a reference book over the more obvious movies, you are.

Like its been said many times before, please show us 1 instance where the movies matched the ICS's firepower levels...

[mr.dark]

And therein lies the problem.
If the Fighter's main weapons, their energy weapons which we see them use so often, are only in the Kiloton range, how could they hope to damage armor (Capital ship armor, Death Star armor) stated by the SW side as being able to resist Megaton, or even Gigaton level weapons?
Note that the fighters attacking the DS used only their Laser weaponry when attacking the armored surface of the battle station.
And apart from that big explosion (still sub-Kiloton level) occuring when Luke hits a power relay (novelisation I believe), all the other explosions are relatively small.

Well there's a few ways out from this, either they were going for a specific weakpoint on the otherwise as you stated heavily armoured battlestation's surface like oooh i dunno maybe a 2 metre across thermal exhaust port leading down into the reactor core. Or in fact their weapons are comparatively more powerful than suspected and in fact fire megaton level beams, or lastly maybe the armour plating of the station is not what protects against gigaton level assaults but in fact its shield projected some distance above the surface. With the armour plating weak enough to suffer cosmetic damage and scarring mostly from the fighter assault.

[Praeothmin]

oooh i dunno maybe a 2 metre across thermal exhaust port leading down into the reactor core.

Well, the problem with this is that their first passes were not directed at that Thermal Exhaust port, they were actually shooting at the surface of the DS, perhaps as you say trying to find weak spots (which would make sense if we suppose a heavily armored DS, which I like to believe).

lastly maybe the armour plating of the station is not what protects against gigaton level assaults but in fact its shield projected some distance above the surface.

That could be right, which would explain why Capital ships, not being able to pass through, would not be able to do any damage, and why small Starfighters, with strafing runs aiming at weak points in the DS armor would be able to do some damage.
The problem with this is that the only reason why the people on the DS panicked when attacked was that they had analyzed the attack pattern, and had discerned what the Rebels were trying to do.
And even then, it was declared as an "unlikely" event, to the point where the DS's commanding officer thought it preposterous.

[Mike DiCenso]

The subject of TL firepower and such was dealt with here over a year ago:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 60&start=0


Basically light and medium TLs appear to be in the low single and double-digit kiloton range based on older TL-to-asteroid scalings done on the Strek forum several years ago that put the TESB asteroid at no larger than 14 meters wide, and no smaller than 1 meter. The rough average being 6-8 meters. It also generously assumed that the asteroids were solid spheres of iron that were being vaporized, rather than loose collections of oblong or lumpy shaped rock. Heavy TLs are probably megaton range based on the opening narative description given in the RoTS novelization.

Phasers are at least in the 60 GW range based on statements made in TNG's "A Matter of Time" [TNG-5] concerning a critical output varience of the second largest of the E-D's phaser arrays, but is lkely much, much higher given that ships in the 22nd century in ST:ENT had firepower exceeding the NX-01's phase cannon outputs of 500 GJ/5 terajoules.
-Mike

[mr.dark]

The subject of TL firepower and such was dealt with here over a year ago:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 60&start=0


Basically light and medium TLs appear to be in the low single and double-digit kiloton range based on older TL-to-asteroid scalings done on the Strek forum several years ago that put the TESB asteroid at no larger than 14 meters wide, and no smaller than 1 meter. The rough average being 6-8 meters. It also generously assumed that the asteroids were solid spheres of iron that were being vaporized, rather than loose collections of oblong or lumpy shaped rock. Heavy TLs are probably megaton range based on the opening narative description given in the RoTS novelization.

Phasers are at least in the 60 GW range based on statements made in TNG's "A Matter of Time" [TNG-5] concerning a critical output varience of the second largest of the E-D's phaser arrays, but is lkely much, much higher given that ships in the 22nd century in ST:ENT had firepower exceeding the NX-01's phase cannon outputs of 500 GJ/5 terajoules.
-Mike

So lower limits for the federation ship is about 5terajoules.
5tjoules
The yield of a kiloton of tnt to put them on the same level is
kiloton of TNT kt 4.184×1012 J
So the light turbolaser, with a lower limit one kiloton a shot using your calcs has an output of.
4.184tjoules
And this is for one of the many many such weapons they have on an ISD and one of the smaller.
Total combined barrage is orders of magnitude in excess of this when factoring in MTL and HTLs.

[SailorSaturn13]

That's Scimitars disruptors hitting the bridge. Looks no more powerful than any of the fighter attacks on the Death Star. And no more fiery.

Bleedthru damage. That's what penetrated the shields. It is very well known (For example "Tinker, tenor, doctor, spy") that ST shields let a small percentage through

[Kane Starkiller]

No, but judging from the movies, no ISD ever demonstrated that level of Firepower.
Even the ships attacking each other in RotS never show us anything remotely close to Kiloton level shots.

Which you judge by the "look" of the explosions right? But these fiery explosions come up in almost any sci-fi battle including Star Trek as I have demonstrated a few posts ago. So does the same firepower limitation apply to all those ships as well?

Considering it vaporized it, how do you know it was turned down to 1 millionth of its full power?

The beam was stopped by the Mon Calamari cruiser, that is it didn't go straight through it. So you tell me just how many times the resistance of a ship is smaller than resistance of a planet.

Because they aren't the same. You continue to assume that a superlaser and a turbolaser are the same except for the scale used. All there is in common is the word laser, that it's an energy weapon and the color is green (though energy weapons in Wars have also been red and blue, too). If you want to bring in recent novels, there's the one about the DS that gives evidence that the SL uses a techie method and not plain brute force.

Strawman. I showed that Empire demonstrated the capability to tune it's weapons firepower through many orders of magnitude. I didn't claim they are identical even though EU describes superlaser as a compound turbolaser. Yet another piece of information you like to pretend doesn't exist.

Well, using SDN logic, this one is easy.
You have two (and only two) posibble explanations:
1- This simply means that Runabouts have hulls that can withstand Megatons range of fire power;

or

2- The Jem'Hadar had lowered the power of their weapons because they (incorrectly, I agree) thought that they did not need anything more powerful to destroy the runabouts.

I have problems believing the two explanations above, of course.
But its the kind of explanations I've been seeing many times to defend the low yields seen in the SW movies when compared to the ICS.

Then what is your explanation? That Jem'Hadar weapons are weak? This is what you would've claimed if this was an incident from SW after all. Funny how you don't do that when ST is concerned.

And Kane, I do agree there are probably more of this type of problems in ST, after the franchise spans 5 series, many hundreds of hours of material written by many different writers.
However, we are not the ones defending a reference book over the more obvious movies, you are.

Either there is contradiction or there isn't one. Relative levels of canon are completely irrelevant. If there is a contradiction it must be explained and reconciled, if there isn't then there is no problem either way.

Like its been said many times before, please show us 1 instance where the movies matched the ICS's firepower levels...

Why should I need to do that? Sure I could show Death Star blowing up Alderaan and then you would whine about how Death Star is "special" but really it's EXPANDED universe. It expands upon the films. You'll notice that there are also cross sections in the Incredible cross section and those are also not "demonstrated" in the films. Should those be discarded also? What the hell is the point of EU then anyway?

The subject of TL firepower and such was dealt with here over a year ago:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 60&start=0


Basically light and medium TLs appear to be in the low single and double-digit kiloton range based on older TL-to-asteroid scalings done on the Strek forum several years ago that put the TESB asteroid at no larger than 14 meters wide, and no smaller than 1 meter. The rough average being 6-8 meters. It also generously assumed that the asteroids were solid spheres of iron that were being vaporized, rather than loose collections of oblong or lumpy shaped rock. novelization.

For all the lengthy discussions about this incident people seem to forget that however large the asteroids were it's still a LOWER limit. The asteroids were GONE, no fragments are visible so whether asteroids are 1cm in diameter or 1km in diameter we are still talking about lower limits which in no way contradict ICS numbers which are actually weapon ratings. I shouldn't even comment on your ridiculous claim that TESB asteroids were "loose collections of rock" when we have seen TIE's collide with them with no ill effects to the asteroids and the EU describes them explicitly as nickel-iron.

Heavy TLs are probably megaton range based on the opening narative description given in the RoTS

Yes about town vaporization. And where does it state how big is the town? What is included in the vaporization? Basements also? Where does it state heavy TLs were referenced instead of light? Assumption upon assumption upon assumption. That is not how you prove contradiction with the ICS.

Bleedthru damage. That's what penetrated the shields. It is very well known (For example "Tinker, tenor, doctor, spy") that ST shields let a small percentage through

Then what is the problem if people use the same explanation for SW?