To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:48 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:
But only, if it happened so. If it was only a simplified explanation [see below], there is no reason to expect such a war.
But why would he say there was a war if there wasn't a war. Picard isn't known for being dishonest. Unless he was referring to official UFP First Contact and not Human First Contact but thats some pretty fine hair splitting.
There was a war because cultural diversity, which could have avoided, if the Klingons and the UFP had better understanded each other. But it wasn't immediate after the first contact.

The surveillance, he has spoken of, is necessary to learn to understand the other culture, regardless if it has just developed the warp drive or has it in common use already.

The war was only an exemplary reason to justify the necessary of the surveillance. But to simplify the explanation, he has not mentioned, that the war was not immediate after the first contact.

Then, serious Star Trek fans have no reason to expect such a war in Enterprise after the First Contact with the Klingons or after the Augment Arc. It could have happened later.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:04 pm

Agreed.

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Post by Kazeite » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:54 pm

Wha?...

If this war happened later, then saying that it was First Contact that led to it is simply incorrect.

Klingon-Human FC didn't led to anything. There were other Human-Klingon interaractions with far more disastrous results. Statement "disastrous first
contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war" is not a simplification - it's simply incorrect.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:01 pm

Bearing in mind that warp 7 in the TOS/movie era is far more than twice as fast as an ENT-era warp 5 has any right to be - both by the precedents within the warp scale as well as the specific other scalings available in ENT and TOS, that's still rather inconsistent.
Mike DiCenso wrote:Fanon. Clear and simple fanon. Nothing in TOS ever directly states that Spock is the first ever Vulcan.
And? In TOS we have Vulcan ships, and Earth ships (basically speaking). Vulcans are practically unheard of in "Starfleet" (I.e., not the Vulcan fleet).

You can't look at the Sarik-Spock-Saavik arc without seeing that Vulcans in Starfleet are highly unusual in the 23rd century.

The Xindi are particularly striking because they're supposed to become valuable allies of the Federation in the 25th century according to the temporal war junk, IIRC - so they didn't disappear, and they're still basically right next to Earth. While the Franco-Prussian war may not be worth mentioning, Germany is rather difficult to avoid seeing any mention of in present-day France, particularly when the 23rd and 24th century equivalents of European Unification are common points of discussion. Etc.

While it's possible to try and explain away some of the apparent inconsistencies with a clever enough explanation, Enterprise is simply a poor fit in general.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:26 pm

Kazeite wrote:Wha?...

If this war happened later, then saying that it was First Contact that led to it is simply incorrect.

Klingon-Human FC didn't led to anything. There were other Human-Klingon interaractions with far more disastrous results. Statement "disastrous first
contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war" is not a simplification - it's simply incorrect.
OK.

Imagine there were misunderstandings from the beginning and always the threat of war. But the war happened later and could have avoided, if the Klingons and the UFP had better understanded each other.

Therfore, it was decided, that before an official First Contact, there is to gain as much information as possible about the civilication to avoid such misunderstandings

You are Cpt. Picard and have to explain to the Chancellor, why you have surveillanced its people. What would you say?



And it is not wrong to say, that

"Centuries ago, a disastrous first
contact with the Klingon Empire
led to decades of war. "

He hasn't said, that it led immediate to war. But the causes for this war could lie in the First Contact from Enterprise too. It was important for the impression, the Klingons have got from the humans.

And compared to the First Contact protocols from TNG, the First Contact from Enterprise could be described as disastrous. Maybe, Starfleet from Picards era would have appeard different towards the Klingons, what would have changed the whole diplomatical base.

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Post by Nonamer » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:35 pm

No one has mentioned that cloaking technology is everywhere in ST:Ent? It was first introduced in TOS as an amazing technology from the Romulans. Yet in Ent the Romulans already had it, as well as some other races.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:46 pm

Nonamer wrote:No one has mentioned that cloaking technology is everywhere in ST:Ent? It was first introduced in TOS as an amazing technology from the Romulans. Yet in Ent the Romulans already had it, as well as some other races.
The Peace Treaty from Algeron forbid the UFP to develop own cloaking technology [Picard in "The Pegasus" to Admiral Pressman]

I suppose, this treaty was closed after the UFP-Romulan war and before TOS. "That treaty has kept the peace for sixty years."

From this it would follow that the Romulans have had cloaking technology before TOS.



And how exactly was the cloaking technology introduced as a new amazing technology? Do you have a quotation which evidence that it was new, amazing and never seen before?

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:50 pm

I thought Spock being the first Vulcan came from "Journey to Bable" though I haven't seen it since the summer, so I don't remember spacifically. I do know that it was a cause of tension between Sarek and Spock that he joined Starfleet Academy rather than the Vulcan Science Academy.

I personally would have liked to see the start of the Romulan-Federation war, rather than that retarded holo-drone incident. Though that would have required them to set the series a few years later, so you get the founding of the Federation and the Romulan war (which I think would have been much better than the the temperal cold war, which ends up never having happened, and the Xindi Death Star arc).

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Post by Nonamer » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:29 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:
Nonamer wrote:No one has mentioned that cloaking technology is everywhere in ST:Ent? It was first introduced in TOS as an amazing technology from the Romulans. Yet in Ent the Romulans already had it, as well as some other races.
The Peace Treaty from Algeron forbid the UFP to develop own cloaking technology [Picard in "The Pegasus" to Admiral Pressman]

I suppose, this treaty was closed after the UFP-Romulan war and before TOS. "That treaty has kept the peace for sixty years."

From this it would follow that the Romulans have had cloaking technology before TOS.



And how exactly was the cloaking technology introduced as a new amazing technology? Do you have a quotation which evidence that it was new, amazing and never seen before?
Cloak was introduced as "theoretical" and never seen before in TOS. Ent clearly saw cloak used by the Romulans, which is a continuity contradiction.

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Post by Kazeite » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:30 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote: Imagine there were misunderstandings from the beginning and always the threat of war.
The trouble is, according to Klingons themselves, there was no threat of war until "Judgement". On the contrary, Klingons officialy saw prior actions as "assisting the Klingon people". First Contact with Klingons didn't led to hostilities. Not immediately, and not after a delay.

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Post by 2046 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:31 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:What's the flap about Spock being the (half) Vulcan officer of Starfleet if Vulcans were serving as first officers on Earth ships before the Federation even existed?
Actually, this was rendered moot with the Vulcan arc. By the time of TOS, the Vulcan philosophy (espoused by Sarek in "Journey to Babel") was that peace did not depend on firepower.

This is completely different than the Vulcan philosophy pre-2155. Recall Archer's mention that the Vulcans weren't really into exploration. The maneuvers of the Vulcan fleet and the philosophy of its High Command suggested that it was more of a security force . . . it explored predominately to locate and thwart threats.

Their treatment of Earth in the 90-odd years after first contact fits in that view. They were holding Earth back, and as Soval noted, they were scared of Earth. They logically justified it on the basis of Vulcan 'national security', which might not've been a bad argument.

But the point is, theirs was a culture in deep denial, and it was only the discovery of Surak's teachings that brought that denial to an end. Hence the dismantling of their fleet . . . which, once known to the Romulans, might've helped bring about the war.

Fits rather nicely, thanks to Coto.

But back to the point . . . they probably viewed the new Federation Starfleet as a sort of extension of their own past flawed ideas. Thus it's not impossible that very few Vulcans served in the early years.

The main problem with the Spock issue is that official papers from the 2250's marked him specifically as "Half-Vulcan Science Officer Spock". Maybe they'll quietly CGI that away by the time the Blu-Ray TOR eps come out.
The existence of an entire region (the Expanse) full of new large and technologically well-developed civilizations (e.g., the Xindi) ... which have never been mentioned in TOS and supposedly did not go suddenly extinct after ENT.
The Expanse and the Xindi are indeed a big problem. For one thing, we ought to be able to see it in the sky right now. For another, they had hella-fast FTL.

Unless they (a) Civil-Warred themselves to oblivion again, (b) their FTL required the existence of the Expanse/Guardians and stopped working shortly after those disappeared, or (c) unless they all decided to just bug out for parts unknown (only to be rediscovered centuries later in time for the Enterprise-J crewman), I don't see a way to fit that stuff in for later. I can't imagine why there would be a fixation on warp drive if Xindi FTL was available.
Nobody took notes on the Borg when they first ran into them? Or the Ferengi, which were first contacted by Picard roughly two centuries later on the much-expanded frontier of Federation space?
The usual idea on the Borg was that they were simply an unknown "species" and marked as uber-top-secret, but then largely forgotten. After all, if the subspace beacon thing was only going to arrive hundreds of years later, and with decades being assumed for such a voyage at best, then it's possible that the information simply had not been disseminated.

Now the Ferengi thing was just dumb. The only saving grace was the whole nobody-said-Ferengi thing a la the Borg, but that kind of move is just too weak to use twice.

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Post by 2046 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:33 am

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote: temperal cold war, which ends up never having happened
Well, the TCW happened, just not the Temporal Hot War. Its beginning was stopped by Archer when he killed the Evil Space Nazi (tm).

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:32 am

Nonamer wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:
Nonamer wrote:No one has mentioned that cloaking technology is everywhere in ST:Ent? It was first introduced in TOS as an amazing technology from the Romulans. Yet in Ent the Romulans already had it, as well as some other races.
The Peace Treaty from Algeron forbid the UFP to develop own cloaking technology [Picard in "The Pegasus" to Admiral Pressman]
I suppose, this treaty was closed after the UFP-Romulan war and before TOS. "That treaty has kept the peace for sixty years."
From this it would follow that the Romulans have had cloaking technology before TOS.

And how exactly was the cloaking technology introduced as a new amazing technology? Do you have a quotation which evidence that it was new, amazing and never seen before?
Cloak was introduced as "theoretical" and never seen before in TOS. Ent clearly saw cloak used by the Romulans, which is a continuity contradiction.
In which epidode?

Do you have a quote?

I want to see, that there is no other exegesis. "Theoretical" could refer to the operating mode and not to its existence.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:46 am

Kazeite wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote: Imagine there were misunderstandings from the beginning and always the threat of war.
The trouble is, according to Klingons themselves, there was no threat of war until "Judgement". On the contrary, Klingons officialy saw prior actions as "assisting the Klingon people". First Contact with Klingons didn't led to hostilities. Not immediately, and not after a delay.
In the very first Enterprise episode, Ambassador Soval has said, that the Klingons would send a whole fleet to Earth besause the incident with Klaang.

I think, that is a threat of war from the perspective of Earth.

And in the Augment Arc, Malik has tried to instigate a war between Earth and Klingons.

I think, that he could have wanted this only because he knows, that the "peace" between Earth and the Klingons is very fragile. Do you think, that in TNG, the Klingons would have attacked the UFP because criminals from the UFP have commited a terrorist attack against the Klingons?

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:06 am

Who is like God arbour wrote:In which epidode?

Do you have a quote?

I want to see, that there is no other exegesis. "Theoretical" could refer to the operating mode and not to its existence.
Balance of Terror. You may wish to examine this portion of the transcript:
Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain--
selectively bending light.
But the power cost is enormous.
They may have solved that.
Continuing to challenge. Still no response.
Discontinue.
Contact remaining outposts.
Have them signal us
any sightings or sensor readings in their area.
Blip has changed its heading.
And in a leisurely maneuver.
They may not be aware of us.
Their invisibility screen may work both ways.
With that kind of power consumption,
they may not be able to see us.
This indicates very strongly that no cloak had been deployed prior to this - not, in any case, anywhere the Federation could see.

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