Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

[Nonamer]

It's well established in the EU that fighters can take down capships. If we are allowed to disregard the EU in this regard, we can certainly disregard the ICS too, since it too is just a piece of the EU.

So using the ICS as evidence, even in conjuncture with the movies, is a complete nonstarter, as the movies contradict the ICS in so many ways. If you want to claim that fighters can't take out capships, you pretty much have to use the movies-only approach.

[Socar]

And Lando did tell the other fighter pilots at the beginning of the Battle of Endor to draw the Tie's fire away from the cruisers, implying that the fighters did indeed pose some kind of threat to the capital ships.

[watchdog]

I have been arguing this point forever it seems.

The existance of fighter wings as part of cap ships compliment indicate that they have a use beyond the 'mopping up' that I have heard from Mike Wong. I never truely understood the bias against the x-wing books due to their supposedly being based off of video games, the game play is irrelivant, the game story is not and has been included in the EU as part of the official history of SW.

I do not believe that fighters can easily destroy cap ships or really heavily damage them, but it's obviouse that if you use the EU in any capacity then you cant simply dismiss their abilities against cap ships. The tactic that always interested me was that when you fired a mass of torpedos, not simply 4 randomly aimed torps like in TPM, but a simultaneus focused spread (7 or more all focused at the same point), then it was possible to knock the shields offline. For how long is unknown however, one of the comics claim that the leading torpedos unbalance the shields long enough for the immedeatly following torps to penetrate, how this knocks out the shields I dont know.

I was first introduced to this tactic in various comics, and later found out that the tactic was also used in some of the novels (even more surprising is the scene from ROTJ immedeatly after Adm. Ackbar says to concentrate all fire on the SSD, Did I feel vindicated). Mr. Wong when I brought this to his attention tried to tell me that it was contradicted by canon per the events in TPM (My response; see above on ROTJ), and the thing about the video games. It's only contradicted by canon if you believe that the ships are exactly as powerful as he says they are, I dont.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And Lando did tell the other fighter pilots at the beginning of the Battle of Endor to draw the Tie's fire away from the cruisers, implying that the fighters did indeed pose some kind of threat to the capital ships.

Indeed.
That said, since we have a good case of torpedoes vs capital ships in TPM, and probably the only one in all Star Wars films, I'd like to hear your opinions about this people.

Now, that said, I got the impression that the fighters managed to take out one of the radio dishes.
However, I have no DVD to go frame by frame, and the resolution of the video I have is not as good as I wished it could be.

So here are two scenes worth scrutiny:

First, when a droid fighter crashes into the bridge tower. It seems that the dish is still there. But you must pay great attention, as we can't see the whole dish, just the superior arc. There's no other dish in the vicinity, so it can only be the one which was formerly attacked.

Secondly, shortly before Anakin's fighter gets hit, we see him fly it above the left curved arm of the droid ship. In that short sequence, we can see the ship's spherical core. It seems that the left dish, the one previously hit by a torpedoe, is out. All what seems to be left is the bridge tower, with a large area of the side previously facing the dish now blackened.

Besides, wasn't there a scene where we could actually see scorch marks on the hull of the Trade Federation's battleship?

[Gandalf]

I'd like to see this as well. Considering the yields supported by the ICS and the uber armor underneath the super shields, starfighters and bombers would be utterly pointless, not only because their yields wouldn't be enough, even shields down, but also cause it would be much faster for the assaulting capital ship to just fire a few more bolts.

I've already supplied a perfectly logical argument that is consistant with the establised facts in the Star Wars universe.

Your words reveal more faith in the writings you adore than anything else.

And what school of thought shall we follow then?

[Gandalf]

It's well established in the EU that fighters can take down capships. If we are allowed to disregard the EU in this regard, we can certainly disregard the ICS too, since it too is just a piece of the EU.

Stackpoles novels are based on game mechanics which are not included in the canon system.

[Gandalf]

I was first introduced to this tactic in various comics, and later found out that the tactic was also used in some of the novels (even more surprising is the scene from ROTJ immedeatly after Adm. Ackbar says to concentrate all fire on the SSD, Did I feel vindicated). Mr. Wong when I brought this to his attention tried to tell me that it was contradicted by canon per the events in TPM (My response; see above on ROTJ), and the thing about the video games. It's only contradicted by canon if you believe that the ships are exactly as powerful as he says they are, I dont.

There is nothing in ROTJ that indicates a fighter torpedo volley whats so ever.

[Gandalf]

And Lando did tell the other fighter pilots at the beginning of the Battle of Endor to draw the Tie's fire away from the cruisers, implying that the fighters did indeed pose some kind of threat to the capital ships.

Implied but if you'll note we never saw a fighter actually fire on a ship nor do Imperial fighters carry warheads anyway. And there were no TIE Bombers present during the battle.

[Mike DiCenso]

It's actually more than merely implied:


RED THREE
Three of them coming in, twenty degrees!

WEDGE

Cut to the left! I'll take the leader!
They're heading for the medical frigate.

Lando steers the Falcon through a complete flip, as his crew
fires at the TIEs from the belly guns.

NAVIGATOR
Pressure's steady.

The copilot Nien Nunb chatters an observation.

LANDO
Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder
what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.



They are clearly concerned about the TIEs heading for the Medical Frigate. If fighters weren't a threat at all, then they wouldn't need to worry at all about it. Also note from Lando's dialog that the star destroyers are not attacking, and therefore are not giving any fire support to the fighters at this point in time.

In addition, we see later on where two X-wings take out the dome of an ISD (one of the X-wings is destroyed the explosion).
-Mike

[Dragoon]

In addition, we see later on where two X-wings take out the dome of an ISD (one of the X-wings is destroyed the explosion).
-Mike

A-Wings, I believe. And they do it with their primary laser cannons. Either the sensor domes are incredibly underarmored or the ICS is wrong about the fighter energy outputs. After all, there was no sign of prior damage to the domes themselves.


EDIT: I just watched the battle scene again and I found the scene you were talking about. My mistake.

Interesting to note that the cruisers are busy engaging other Star destroyers and the ones the X-Wings attack doesn't seem to have been engaged by any capital ships yet.

[Gandalf]

It's actually more than merely implied:


RED THREE
Three of them coming in, twenty degrees!

WEDGE

Cut to the left! I'll take the leader!
They're heading for the medical frigate.

Lando steers the Falcon through a complete flip, as his crew
fires at the TIEs from the belly guns.

NAVIGATOR
Pressure's steady.

The copilot Nien Nunb chatters an observation.

LANDO
Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder
what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.



They are clearly concerned about the TIEs heading for the Medical Frigate. If fighters weren't a threat at all, then they wouldn't need to worry at all about it. Also note from Lando's dialog that the star destroyers are not attacking, and therefore are not giving any fire support to the fighters at this point in time.

All that means is that they were on a course for the Medical Frigate. What the hell are the TIE's going to do to it? Peck away at the shields with their puny guns when the shields can instantly regenerate? At no time do we see a fighter fire on an Alliance capital ship. They were obviously there only to harrass the Alliance fighters.

In addition, we see later on where two X-wings take out the dome of an ISD (one of the X-wings is destroyed the explosion).
-Mike

Whose shields were obviously downed by capital ship bombardment.

[Gandalf]

A-Wings, I believe. And they do it with their primary laser cannons. Either the sensor domes are incredibly underarmored or the ICS is wrong about the fighter energy outputs. After all, there was no sign of prior damage to the domes themselves.

That happens concurrent with the Executors bridge shields going down. She was under attack by Alliance cruisers at the time.

[Dragoon]

It's actually more than merely implied:


RED THREE
Three of them coming in, twenty degrees!

WEDGE

Cut to the left! I'll take the leader!
They're heading for the medical frigate.

Lando steers the Falcon through a complete flip, as his crew
fires at the TIEs from the belly guns.

NAVIGATOR
Pressure's steady.

The copilot Nien Nunb chatters an observation.

LANDO
Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder
what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.



They are clearly concerned about the TIEs heading for the Medical Frigate. If fighters weren't a threat at all, then they wouldn't need to worry at all about it. Also note from Lando's dialog that the star destroyers are not attacking, and therefore are not giving any fire support to the fighters at this point in time.

All that means is that they were on a course for the Medical Frigate. What the hell are the TIE's going to do to it? Peck away at the shields with their puny guns when the shields can instantly regenerate? At no time do we see a fighter fire on an Alliance capital ship. They were obviously there only to harrass the Alliance fighters.

Then why would they bother heading for the medical frigate in the first place?

Whose shields were obviously downed by capital ship bombardment.

Actually, we don't have any indication that it's shields are down until after they blow the sensor dome. It'd be somewhat silly of the Imperials to not notice that their shields were down until enemy fighters started blowing their sensor domes apart.

[Dragoon]

I'd also like to note: Why would they need to draw fire away from the cruisers if fighters can't hurt them?

[Gandalf]

Then why would they bother heading for the medical frigate in the first place?

Maybe they were just leading the Alliance pilots on a merry chase through their fleet while they whittled down their numbers.

Actually, we don't have any indication that it's shields are down until after they blow the sensor dome. It'd be somewhat silly of the Imperials to not notice that their shields were down until enemy fighters started blowing their sensor domes apart.

Just because the events happen at the same time doesn't mean they can be displayed at the same time on the screen.