Why even pretend?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

"prove that your claims are valid"

hey SWST how about you prove using only the films that the EU fire power levels are even valid

How about you disprove using only the films (not TCW, which is not "only the films") the ICS?

[Admiral Breetai]

How about you disprove using only the films (not TCW, which is not "only the films") the ICS?

every one has that you ignore it or cry like some butthurt troll does not change that fact..but I'll humor the little one this time and give it what it wants...so then we see numerous times in the PT and at least once or twice in the OT that guns are manually fired like world war two era battle ships..in the venators the guns are out in the open with only a force shield to hold in the atmosphere yet no teraton or GT fire power is shown certainly when one of the republic ships literally shoots into the force shield and blows away a fucking case of shells and theres a huge explosion that looks more like your typical artillery fire due to negligence than any impressive fire power

we see imperial bombers totally unable to crack up asteroids that dominion fighters could shred in seconds...we see Star destroyers firing in ranges of only..a few hundred meters and *barely* hitting their target averaging one connect per several shots...we see tiny ass fucking asteroids moving slow as fuck smashing up an ISD bridge...SW fighters actually busting up DS armor and damaging the inside enough to kill storm troopers y'know the same fire power that when unshielded barely blows the top of R2's head off?

or hey how about when in a throw away line at the battle of Endor a fucking imperial officers screams "intensify forward fire power I don't want anything coming through!!"

that;'s fucking right Piet one of the few imperial officers with a god damn brain orders a fucking flack screen to be brought..a flack screen FREAKEN FLACK SCREEN FOR CHRISTS SAKES like it;s a god damn WW2 era naval battle

for the love of Christ the only thing that was ever remotely impressive was slave 1's little earth quake bombs which did more damage than anything ever shown in any subsequent films and thus falls under the SM vs FL exemption and should be barred from validity due to that

seriously you have never mustered an argument that hasn't been full of nonsense..none of us are obligated to provide you with any proof...simply because your the one making the outrageous claims you continue this..and it is deplorable

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Breentai, you do not see explosions in space: and those FLAK CANNONS in the ROTS opening were using SHELLs and therefore obviously not turbolasers, which do NOT use shells.

Since you do not see explosions in space, it is stupid to complain about gigaton explosions not being seen.

What is seen in the movies is AT ATs shaking/crushing Echo Base; Han and Leia were seen in clips falling as the base collapsed around them while the AT AT's were firing from kilometers away, and Echo base was under a MOUNTAIN!

The Death Star, the imperial fleet and the rebel fleet were all moving at hundreds of thousands of kms per hour as X wings went from Yavin 4 to so far away that Yavin is just a small ball in a matter of minutes. The hull of the Death Star would have to be 300,000 times stronger than structural steel; calculated only from the movies, for this to happen.

The Empire constructed the Death Star 2 in less than a year in secret in the outer rim, dwarfing the entire production of q militarized Federation over the entire Dominion war. This construction feat puts Star Trek to shame...and the movies have no million man clone army to weigh it down. The Empire made more in secret than the Federation likely did in a decade of full mobilization.

In the Battle of Endor, 100s of kms were considered to be well within attack rand. A few dozen kilometers was considered suicidally close: the ROTS opening scene involved a surprise invasion, so the separatists had to get close fast to land troops and get Palpatine.
Meanwhile, Borg cubes, despite being obvious targets, are closed to within 10 km to fire on, and the cube often times misses!


The movies alone provide no evidence that the Death Star is chain reaction.



The slave 1's laser cannons were showing gigajoules of energy, yet Obi Wan's light delta starfighter only got a small dent from it.


A sphat from within a hanger inside a star destroyer sheared a km long ship in half with one hit.



Ships are shown arriving from across the galaxy in mere hours, implying tens of millions of C (and films don't have the modest size galaxy quote)




So only using films:


300,000 times stronger than steel hulls
Gigajoules for rapid fire starfighter laser cannons
DET super laser
100,000s km per hour speeds
10s millions times C
Construction ability to build a moon sized battlestation in under a year in secret

[Admiral Breetai]

Breentai, you do not see explosions in space: and those FLAK CANNONS in the ROTS opening were using SHELLs and therefore obviously not turbolasers, which do NOT use shells.

except that that's the only weaponry we see fired on screen so no go here

Since you do not see explosions in space, it is stupid to complain about gigaton explosions not being seen.

i meant when a clone fired off his tl canon and it hit the inside of a CIS ship and the explosion was merely made huge by the fact that it hit more rounds..and went off

What is seen in the movies is AT ATs shaking/crushing Echo Base; Han and Leia were seen in clips falling as the base collapsed around them while the AT AT's were firing from kilometers away, and Echo base was under a MOUNTAIN!

1, they where at that point stepping on troopers practically 2, we only saw such things when they busted the shield generator

The Death Star, the imperial fleet and the rebel fleet were all moving at hundreds of thousands of kms per hour as X wings went from Yavin 4 to so far away that Yavin is just a small ball in a matter of minutes. The hull of the Death Star would have to be 300,000 times stronger than structural steel; calculated only from the movies, for this to happen.

\

nonsense and this is contradicted by later showings

The Empire constructed the Death Star 2 in less than a year in secret in the outer rim, dwarfing the entire production of q militarized Federation over the entire Dominion war. This construction feat puts Star Trek to shame...and the movies have no million man clone army to weigh it down. The Empire made more in secret than the Federation likely did in a decade of full mobilization.

the empire took several years to build something they had an easier time building and secondly..I see your moon base and raise you stars

In the Battle of Endor, 100s of kms were considered to be well within attack rand. A few dozen kilometers was considered suicidally close: the ROTS opening scene involved a surprise invasion, so the separatists had to get close fast to land troops and get Palpatine.

no cap ship firing was done at hundreds of KMs the only time we hear of any battle between ships is when they are point blank so no

Meanwhile, Borg cubes, despite being obvious targets, are closed to within 10 km to fire on, and the cube often times misses!

because Borg are retarded oh and fed ships can barely harm the things unless they hurl explosives at them

The movies alone provide no evidence that the Death Star is chain reaction.

man every time you claim this I wanna put the Micheal Jackson eating popcorn giff up because the OG's here get soo pissed at you

The slave 1's laser cannons were showing gigajoules of energy, yet Obi Wan's light delta starfighter only got a small dent from it.

and these are the same weapons that when supposedly improved by the empire couldn't vaporize R2

A sphat from within a hanger inside a star destroyer sheared a km long ship in half with one hit.

in the films? clip now

Ships are shown arriving from across the galaxy in mere hours, implying tens of millions of C (and films don't have the modest size galaxy quote)

we know it's across the galaxy using only EU sources

So only using films:


300,000 times stronger than steel hulls
Gigajoules for rapid fire starfighter laser cannons
DET super laser
100,000s km per hour speeds
10s millions times C
Construction ability to build a moon sized battlestation in under a year in secret

ahaha we get none of that

[General Donner]

This thread is a damn trainwreck.

I'll give you my own two cents: Previous to the prequels and the Clone Wars cartoon, I think SW would've trounced ST. And they wouldn't need the ICS for it, the EU on its own would be more than enough. And not because of style over substance, but because their feats were generally more impressive. (Except maybe TOS, which was higher powered overall than the other series, but still wouldn't have had the numbers to compete.)

Even by Darkstar canon, a million worlds plus Death Star and Star Destroyers would've been enough. Not the same level of curbstomp, but still a decisive defeat for the Federation.

Since the cartoon is however canon now, Star Wars now loses to the likes of Babylon 5 and movie Starship Troopers. Which was one reason why I gave up arguing for them, besides disgust with Warsie hypocrisy and pseudoscientific arguments.


Oh, and another thing, one doesn't have to get deep and philosophical over this stuff. It's a hobby, and none to serious a one.

[Mith]

it most certainly could I know that some EU sources show that the imperial fleet numbers in the millions simply put it's not supported by the films..even if you want to drag eu into this that kinda crap really has no validation (and the absence of evidence not being the evidence of absence..is a terrible debate tactic ) they don't have the numbers to hurl at the UFP where as some of their leading ships can likely go 3-6 on one with ISD's and local picket forces sans any orbital defenses would still be nightmarish though doable

but major worlds? hell no they'd be eaten alive they're forces torn to pieces

Oh my.

See, the thing is you're both wrong.

And you're both right.

Oragahn is correct when he says that the Empire does have the physical capability to overwhelm the defenses of any Star Trek planet and are capable of causing mass destruction. That is a fact. EU wise, they do have millions of ships and even without the EU, their fleet would still be rather immense.

The problem is, the Empire is incapable of fielding those ships without causing drastic instability within their own territory. It's such a problem that they could never scrounge up the military assets needed to invade and put down Mon Calamari which was openly rebelling and building large scale warships that they were supplying to the Rebellion.

Any power--any, no matter what morons like Leo1 might claim, is going to aim to destroy the enemy's infrastructure first. That's rule one of how you win a war. That's why the US became a world superpower after WWII; everyone else was too fucked up from the ravages of war while the worst we suffered was a bloody nose from Japan's sneak attack--which barely amounted to a scratch industrial wise.

The Empire however, was incapable of amassing the military power required to take out what would essentially equal to a large Federation fleet in ship numbers--and practically equal a small Federation fleet and some orbital defense systems.

So to believe that the Empire, for all of its industrial might, could wage war with the Federation and survive is questionable at best and highly unlikely at worst. Especially given that they did collapse on their own with no outside help.

between planetary shields and orbital defenses? local defense fleets?

I don't think you realize the fleet disparity size. Yes, if the Emperor made a holy decree that x planet is to die, it will die. The Emperor would basically be cutting off his own leg and nailing himself in the balls to do it, but it could be done.

In reality, the massive losses the Empire would suffer initially from a war with the Federation would deter an all out war like we saw with the Dominion or the Republic against the CIS.

the average commander and soldier probably isn't but they have some mule stupid leaders

To be fair, Trek has shown to have its own legally insane and mentally retarded officers and leaders too.

Oragahn:
If the UFP can realize that it can fire missiles from a good distance, the Empire would obviously alter their tactics, strategies and ship designs to mirror that as well.

Admiral:
i have the sinking suspicion that commanders slick enough to do this are either defending core worlds or force choked to death [/quote]

Ookay, how to address this.

First off, I would disagree with you here Oragahn. The problem with SW is that their weapons design is behind modern ship designs. The whole 'cover your ship with guns and broadside the shit out of each other' was old hat after WWII. SW should have converted into more modern styles of using missiles and torpedoes to hit their targets rather than spamming the enemy with plasma bolts. Anyone outside their immediate threat range is going to have little trouble evading fire.

Unfortunately, the Empire's funds are already spread so thin that attempting to refit the entire fleet with more modern combat designs is going to make the Death Star project look laughably small in comparison.

And admiral, they are clearly not the brightest bunch, but let's stick to at least a respectable view of them, eh?

There's quite a wide variety of solutions to get rid of the advantage of long range torpedo bombardment. The most obvious is just to pepper torps with junk and shit to make them pop before they get too close.

Again, while I respect the fact that this would be a possible solution, it's worth noting that the torpedoes are fairly well shielded.

That's also not getting into the fact that they have poor aim in regards to small fighters and such--let alone something as small as a torpedo.

Admiral:
yeah a flack screen at an FTL moving anti matter missile that's shockwave can likely bust up an ISD's shields?

Shockwaves don't exist in space and we don't know for sure if an SW plasma bolt will cause the torpedo to emit a photonic shockwave.

phasers are also a bitch to deal with and Wars tech has never come across that type of "go away weapon"

They have actually. They have disruptors that act just like ST phasers/disruptors.

Unfortunately, the implications of how those weapons act in SW is not really something an SW fan would like to bring up.

The other is perhaps to make plenty of smaller ships, so they can fire their weapons and then buzz off. A number will be lost, but it's better than putting all your eggs into one basket and let it being struck like a sitting duck would while it tries to pee all over a planet's civilization.

The problem is that this is actually true. The Empire's fleet is composed of mostly smaller, older ships. The ISDs are really just their flagships and are the Empire's way of projecting a great deal of power without requiring the whole fleet.

Unfortunately, the reason for that is that their firepower is stated to match dozens of their own ships. The firepower disparity is even larger than the admirals would admit--though not due to pride or anything as such, but greed as pretending that the ships weren't nearly as valuable as they were would mean that they'd get more of them.

So you see, while it's true that the Empire has many smaller and more agile ships, the problem is that they're vastly, vastly inferior to the ISDs...which are vastly, vastly inferior to to ST ships. It would be in essence, like Starfleet trying to fight the Borg by sending in more agile ships like the Constitution or the NX--yeah, they're harder to hit, but they're also incapable of doing little more than scratching the paint job.

admiral:
oh well if they want to hurl tiny frigates into a meat grinder Stalin style then I suppose frontier planets and some mid range territories are double fucked

The outer colonies would be in trouble. There is simply not enough there defending them from even a small fleet and the Empire would have no qualms holding them hostage to prevent a counter-invasion force.

A mix of multi-terajoule TLs and megaton range thermonucleear nukes would do.

Admiral
knock a few bridge officers down? piss off the captain when he bumps his head?

I think he was referring to orbital bombardment.

There's also the problem that people like the Ferengi, or other factions, would see no problem getting friendly with the Empire or running mere business, as usual. Here come the blueprints for warp drives, warp cores and other phaser and photon torpedoes.

Eh, I'm not so sure. Pre-Dominion War? Yeah. Post-Dominion War? Not so much. The Ferengi made a great deal of strides during DS9 and remained neutral between the Dominion and the Federation in the war. I have no doubt that a stray Ferengi arms dealer would happily make a deal with the Empire, but the Ferengi as a whole would not. And while that may seem strange at first, keep in mind that the Ferengi are business oriented. They're going to take a wait-and-see approach rather than side with any one power.

On the other hand, I would also think that the Ferengi would care less for the Empire than they do for even Starfleet. Quark, who does tend to represent many of the core ideals of the Ferengi people, is appalled at how the human race was. He was disgusted with their violence, their waste, and how they acted in general. The Empire embraces the absolute worst aspects of humanity.

Admiral:
I'm not sure the Ferengi would be stupid enough to sell advanced weapons capable of working evenly with the guys who more or less provide a buffer between them and the rest of the nastier things in space, they may not like humanity but it's pretty clear they prefer these guys as the top dogs

You can be willing to be more than one Ferengi would open dealings with the Empire--you can at least assume that warp drive, sensors, and possibly even basic weapon designs are going to be compromised. Fortunately, Starfleet is intelligent enough to know that they will be compromised.

However, even this loss doesn't ensure that the Empire can somehow match the UFP playing field. It would require a massive refit of not only the weapon systems aboard the ship, but its power systems, sensors, shield generators, and the entire conceptual design of their ships. On an ISD, it would simply be patch and pray, while older ships are going to be too small and too incapable to even begin properly arming them to fight against the UFP.

Most of all, this would require time and resources the Empire doesn't have.

The ISD already cost so much that the Empire nearly fractured under its strongest era when the member worlds found out. An antimatter-matter generation program would likely cost billions of credits and a decade to get a working prototype for a warship, let alone a properly designed one you'd need after field testing. And it would likely still be inferior to any design Starfleet would have used decades ago.

Then you need to design antimatter weapons capable of creating a large enough bang to harm UFP ships, but small and agile enough, with shields to hit said ships. And what of FTL? Even the smaller, less bulky nacelle designs by say BoPs and such would require significant space to put on an ISD and how much room would there be for the hyperdrive?

Or would the Empire simply have to build an entire new class of warp-capable scout ships/probes to map hyperspace routes so their larger ships can use hyperdrive? And how fast would these ships be? Even warp 5 would require years for them to map out routes large enough to make them a real strategic threat to the UFP, let alone enough to conquer a significant portion of the quadrant.

[Mith]

All depends on the size of the fleet they send and when, since technology is bound to make leaps as exchanges continue. As pointed out, I don't see the Imperials not acquiring tech from the Ferengi or else.
Heck, they could literally offer one of those other factions a juicy contract to have them build the Empire some typical Trek ships while having access to the imperial industry. Oh sure, things would take time to put into place, but it's not like the UFP would get anywhere before this gets achieved anyway.

One problem with that is that while yes, technological leaks are going to happen, it's going to happen on both sides. The problem is that the only actual technological advantage that the Empire has over the Federation is one of FTL. An FTL that is so common that every world in the Empire has it.

The advantage of FTL for the Empire's industry would also make it an achilles heel against the Federation, who would be more than happy to encourage the Rebellion and attack critical Imperial holdings.

Even hiring out for warships though--which not a lot of fractions do, would be incredibly costly and it still wouldn't yield the sort of ships that they would need to properly engage the UFP. And the UFP would be more than eager to stop those transactions in any way possible.

Torpedo spheres can puncture any matrix of shields that provides a full planetary coverage and the Hoth shields already was offering a good enough protection against Death Squadron.
The torpedo sphere is built to put holes in shields far above that (although the full coverage planetary shields are rare). They can find the weak spots in shields, same weak spots we know exist on the prison facility's shield from TOS for example.

Hmmm, TOS was a long time ago and the prison wasn't exactly designed to resist the firepower from a full blown warship, though it provided an obstacle all the same. Logically you'd be right in saying that these weaknesses should exist within even modern Trek shields, but even then I'm hesitant to say that it would be enough. ST sensors are far superior to even sophisticated SW sensors and yet we rarely see Trek ever dropping an entire shield with a single shot save for technobabble. And even then it rarely lasts long.

They might be able to match the frequency modulation of course, that seems to be a possible window for them, but then the question would be if the torpedo spheres could keep up against the colony if they decided to modulate the shields.

Of course, a larger shield might pose larger anomalies than typical Trek shields...

If the UFP can realize that it can fire missiles from a good distance, the Empire would obviously alter their tactics, strategies and ship designs to mirror that as well.

This is true. I don't think the Empire is so incapable that they can't see when they're horribly outgunned that they need to change tactics.

On the other hand, it would mean a massive revolution of their fleet, training tactics, and combat methods in order to come to anything close of making this into a battle rather than a one-sided slaughter house.

And this is time that I honestly don't think they'd have. The Federation would destabalize the Empire long before then--and if they didn't the Tal Shiar would. Or Section 31.

Or that after loosing several ships and battles, they understand that their main problem is one of range against those torpedoes. That problem can be solved.

Yes, it can. But it's going to be costly. Very, very costly. So costly that the Empire would need to cease hostilities just to give them enough breathing room to open the projects they need to make the changes they require.

It depends on the distance between the torpedo and the ship.
SDs have ranges in the hundreds of kilometers and bolts which can travel at about 10 km/s (from ROTJ). The other factor is how powerful you think the imperial ships are.

As for the FTL torps, I'm going to shrugg it off. When have we seen Trek ships reliably shoot torps at FTL speeds against targets flying at STL speeds?

I'd agree with the FTL argument. It so rarely happens in Trek I tend to ignore it. However, even at STL, the UFP has a far greater speed advantage. All but the heaviest PD is either going to fail outright or it's going to do little more than stop one or two torpedoes at best.

Indeed. From bits I found in the EU, it's even possible that imperial shields might prove incapable of stopping most if not all of a phaser beam, based on how SW shields behave against two types of Trek-like disintegrating weapons.

That said, that would be another obvious reason to try to acquire said tech. It's not like disruptors or phasers are secret knowledge. Besides, the Empire wouldn't be suicidal up to the point of throwing its forces if from the first engagement, it would realize that its ships' defenses are as good as if they didn't exist. They're not pushovers.
They'll reconsider their strategy and focus on leveling the playground.

Agreed. The problem here though is that the obstacle of refitting all your old ships or replacing them with new ones. And before you an even build a new class of ships, you'll need to open dozens of projects in terms of engineering and scientific research. Just the antimatter engine alone would require a completely new concept of how they build warships. The closest thing they have to antimatter--hypermatter, requires massive reactors to properly contain them as ISDs will explode violently for trying to use them.

Yes, clearly an ST power could supply them with proper answers to these obstacles, but it still requires that hundreds of thousands of Imperial engineers have to basically relearn an entirely new concept of energy production.

Then you have weapons like phasers and disruptors--weapons similar to ones that we know the Empire knows exists but have yet to rearm their entire fleet with, despite the obvious tactical advantage a SW disruptor would provide for an ISD. Hell, even decades later, when the ISDs are considered old gals, we still have yet to see any revolutionary redesign in how their ships act. Their largest change to space warfare are long range turbolasers--basically the same thing as normal HTLs, but with a much longer range at a greater energy cost.

So that suggests to me that much like the hypermatter concept, a NDF type weapon is simply something that the Empire could not afford to make. The emitters alone might be the reason. Their only chance would be to buy the weapons from other powers and then adapt either them or their ships to using them, which would cost astronomical amounts in terms of production and transportation and it would still limit their weapons abilities to below Starfleet. Nor would they be able to buy enough weapons in bulk from a power that would be willing to make the trade because there's no way such a small power could produce the weapons needed to supply the Empire's demands for the sort of fleet they'd need to overcome and occupy the Federation and the Klingon Empire (who would go to war with them simply due to their alliance with the Federation).

Precisely. The only problem to that is that even if the Empire has those numbers, most of them are used to patrol its own territory against pirate and rebel raids.
On the other hand, the Empire would have enough power and money to encourage some evil force in Trek to work against the UFP.

The problem being that the UFP is already at odds with most of those. The increased funds might make them more effective, but they'd do little in the end. The best thing they could do would be to provide intel--which would be a danger to Starfleet.

The flipside of this is that the UFP could really give a boost to the rebels.
But all in all, the UFP has far more to lose than the Empire. The Empire has size and momentum.

Size yes, momentum no. The Empire was starting to crack under internal pressure, remember? The UFP could easily force a far greater amount of pressure simply due to their philosophy and what they have to offer. And we saw that in SW, that in the end, each planet looks out for numer one before it looks out for their galactic society as a whole.

The technological gap and lack of data about territories, it can gain it from other alien species in Trek interested in war, trade or/and money, while the UFP won't be able to put a deep enough dent into the Empire.

Again, I would argue that this isn't true. Technological leaks go both ways and Starfleet has shown a much greater level of adaption to learning and applying new technology than the Empire ever has. Reaching a planet that has hyperdrive wouldn't be too hard and modifying a system to work for an ST ship also wouldn't be too hard for Starfleet given that Voyager built at least three different drives into their own ship with some success (Borg transwarp, Warp 10 transwarp, and the Quantum Slipstream), the largest problems they faced in those regards had to do with the limitations on their own systems to match that of the engines they mounted--which given how inferior SW ships manage to enter and use hyperspace, shouldn't be much of a problem for ST ships.

Its unique chance of victory -and this has been clear for quite some time now, at least here- is to strike for Palpatine and his bureaucracy. This can be achieved with mounting a suicide and surprise attack against Coruscant after being sure that Palpatine is there, while continuously flying at warp for years. The problem being that ships at warp don't leave realspace, they just bend it. So they do leave a trace of their passage and their direction.
It's quite sure that if those UFOs get detected and seen headed for the Core Worlds, the Empire as a whole will get more than a litle suspicious. You may literally think that Palpatine will move to a more secure place until this gets solved.

Again, this requires that the UFP does not obtain hyperdrive--which if we say the Empire will obtain ST weapons, shields, and FTL propulsion, seems a little odd and unfair that the more advanced and more adaptable Starfleet is incapable of mounting an HD system and performing critical strikes to further destabilize the already crumbling Empire.

Now, back to those questions of territorial fighting.
If the Empire ever was to manage to settle a beachhead on the fringe of the UFP, and if a planetary shield would get established, as the Empire is well ahead of the UFP when it comes to ground units, it could easily hold it.

...We're talking about the same ground units right? The SW ones that are horribly designed, improperly used, and consist of mooks willing to run into automatic fire on a regular basis?

The UFP could try doing the same and bust would have to seriously rework its entire concept of ground control. It would also have to deal with the problem of torpedo spheres and even perhaps a Death Star, depending on when this would take place.

ANH would probably be the best time. Rebellion still in its infancy, they have a completed Death Star, and a larger momentum than the rest of the series.

And I'd still disagree on ground combat since if the UFP obtains orbital supremacy, they could handily remove most Imperial military facilities and outposts with their ships and save their actual military for the entrenched forces using civilians as meat shields.

And even then, the Empire has never really fielded such a massive ground force that it would require a massive UFP military force to dig them out. Remember that in SW, they rarely tend to pay attention to anything but important cities or space ports for obvious reasons.

Not against the ships, but against the surface targets. Those would be suicide missions.
Well, at first.
Again, with the most expected leveling of the tech gap, things would soon turn very grim for the UFP.

Unfortunately, the Empire even in ANH still isn't very stable and having a power who can effortlessly backhand their largest ships with their oldest, smallest ships is going to be a rather large blow to Imperial supremacy.

The Empire is also humanity... and much more. Seriously, what do ou think the Ferengi will do when they're promised all new markets and lands to exploit and explore?
The Ferengi are very schemy and few of them have actually appeared friendly towards the UFP. The Ferengi like money. They do business and they've been shown to sell weapons to any side ready to buy it. Even Quark, one of the most open Ferengi towards the UFP, restricted his bar to filter out any UFP customer at some point.
They'll be responsible of UFP's problems, among other things, and there's nothing which can be done against that aside from running false flag attacks on the worlds of the Ferengi Alliance or its ships, and propose to protect their lands, ships and trade from Imperial activity if they cut all contacts with the Empire.
This has literally no chance to happen and is just all too bound to mistakes. Not to say that if they grab the rabbit, the Ferengi will be twice nastier against the UFP.

I don't recall Quark doing that. The closest I think it ever came to that was the exact opposite; Quark had gone into the weapons dealing business with some shady people. The Bajoran government however, considered said dealers heroes because they supplied the Bajorans with weapons during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. In response, Starfleet and UFP citizens responded by refusing to go to his establishment.

And from what I could tell from said weapons dealers in Trek, they tend not to show the same kind of military firepower as capital ships do. I think the largest and most powerful ship belonged to a Ferengi arms merchant which matched the firepower of a GCS--but was so poorly rigged together and filled with so much weapons that upon what Riker ordered to be a 'warning shot to get their attention', Worf accidentally vaporized the entire ship.

And said ship was probably still superior to an ISD before the massive upgrades.

Frankly, time is something the Empire has. It's just too vast, and if the UFP attacks, it will all go to the Empire's benefit, as it will have a new enemy against which all can unite, and that, my friend, is something priceless to any sick government.

While true, it's also worth noting that it might encourage the Empire to fracture even more. Especially when we see that even in the Old Republic era, entire planets were near the point of starving. I doubt the Empire was all that much more charitable once it had firmly established its power base and I'd dare say that with so much funds funneled into the military, it made things worse.

Now, look to the UFP; they have free food, water, shelter, and entertainment. Not only that, but they literally have the technology to build replicators capable of building factories to essentially rebuild a ruined planet. So while I sincerely believe that the Empire's grip on most of the inner worlds will strengthen, it will probably cost them the Outer Rim, save for maybe Hutt space.

It's going to be tough for the rebellion to retain their support when their most friendly worlds will see their populaces suddenly coil in fear because of those unknown terrorists. And if the Rebellion were to band with the UFP, the Empire would have an opportunity to paint them as galacic traitors.

Meh, that's not really anything new. The Empire already has them painted as galactic traitors. While certainly the richer, more powerful worlds would quickly fall in line, the poor worlds would not be so quick. Think about it; what do they have to lose by silently supporting the UFP and the Rebellion? The Empire has already proven it doesn't actually give two shits beyond their tax payment and sworn loyalty--so why not work with this new nation in return for what it claims is the ability to basically jump start their entire economy from a half dozen of machines?

Meanwhile, the UFP would have to make huge efforts to spread a propaganda of some utopic friendly and free society that welcomes anyone.
The Empire could probably pull a false flag a thousand times better than the UFP could, far more effective. They're more pragmatic and evil, and obviously capable of doing so.

I don't think you give Starfleet enough credit. While the Empire is clearly more pragmatic, Starfleet is used to dealing with such people such as the Klingons, the Romulans, and most recently, the Dominion. And all but the Klingons are far more pragmatic and competent than the Empire.

In the end, I would agree that the Empire could wait out the UFP, using their propaganda machine to shore up support with most of the worlds while the UFP tries a peaceful solution because that's what the UFP does.

On the other hand, Sloan said it best:

"The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men with conscience, men who can sleep at night. And you're also the reason that Section 31 exists: to protect men like you from a universe which doesn't share your sense of right and wrong."

S31 is going to make sure that the Empire crumbles. They don't observe the Prime Directive and they wouldn't have any qualms ensuring that the Emperor loses power. S31 is far more pragmatic and can be far more evil than the Emperor. The Emperor exploited the obvious corruption and mind numbingly stupidity of the senate to get to his position. S31 duped Julian Bashir--someone who is clearly more intelligent than the sum of the entire senate (sadly) into ensuring that their mole working from within the Tal Shiar obtained a position of power that would ensure the Romulan Star Empire stayed in the war.

That's not even mentioning they managed to infect the Founders with a terminal disease.

[Mith]

Breentai, you do not see explosions in space: and those FLAK CANNONS in the ROTS opening were using SHELLs and therefore obviously not turbolasers, which do NOT use shells.

It hardly matters. Empire Strikes Back and Downfall of a Droid clearly paint Imperial ships as not only being in danger from asteroid fields, but not having the power that gigaton weapons would offer to vaporize the asteroids that presented themselves as obstacles.

Since you do not see explosions in space, it is stupid to complain about gigaton explosions not being seen.

You see explosions in space, they're just really short and unimpressive looking.

What is seen in the movies is AT ATs shaking/crushing Echo Base; Han and Leia were seen in clips falling as the base collapsed around them while the AT AT's were firing from kilometers away, and Echo base was under a MOUNTAIN!

...And?

Yes, it was under a mountain, or at least partially, but that doesn't immediately mean that you don't feel anything when someone starts throwing dynamite at you. It's not like we require nuclear energy to blast our way through mountains in modern day--let alone a hollowed out one.

The Death Star, the imperial fleet and the rebel fleet were all moving at hundreds of thousands of kms per hour as X wings went from Yavin 4 to so far away that Yavin is just a small ball in a matter of minutes.

That's adorable.

ST ships move at seventy-five thousand kilometers per second and their torpedoes can cover roughly a hundred thousand kilometers per second. Even assuming these SW ships are moving at 900,000 km per hour, that's only 15,000km per minute and 250 km per second. A Federation ship is three hundred times faster and their torpedoes and phasers even faster than that.

The hull of the Death Star would have to be 300,000 times stronger than structural steel; calculated only from the movies, for this to happen.

...Why? I mean, I can guess why the support beams would be so tough and such, but why would the actual hull plating require such strength? It's not like the entire base would be emitting high levels of gravity to require such strength given its not that large as far as moons go.

The Empire constructed the Death Star 2 in less than a year in secret in the outer rim, dwarfing the entire production of q militarized Federation over the entire Dominion war.

I'm pretty sure that's a dirty lie. Wookieepedia suggests 2-4 years just to get it as far as they did and operational. And it looked like it was maybe half done, given that large portions within the completed hull were still under construction. We're looking at a time frame of 4-8 years. That's much faster than the original 21 years for the first one, which is still an impressive feat and it is clear that the Empire has a larger industry--but let's be clear here.

First, it's not like the UFP hasn't even built a massive structure. See Memory Alpha:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Memory_Alpha.jpg

Keep in mind that in order for that planetoid to be round as it is, it would at least need to be around the same size of Ceres 1 in our own system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moon_ ... _to_10.svg

It's the largest one on the far right, with the moon in the back being 1,000 km. Take a gander of just how large then, MA is in comparison to what must be the absolute minimal size of the planetoid it's located on.

Oh yeah, and they apparently built three or four of them by the TNG era. Now this sure as hell isn't the same thing as a Death Star, but then again Starfleet is not even close to being a thousandth as large as the Empire, yet has proven that even so, they can produce more pound for pound than the Empire could ever hope to.

This construction feat puts Star Trek to shame...and the movies have no million man clone army to weigh it down. The Empire made more in secret than the Federation likely did in a decade of full mobilization.

Yes, we get it, the Empire can build lots of shit. Lots of worthless, horribly constructed shit. As much of an industrial and technological wonder the DS is, it cost the Empire a great deal of resources to make it and no doubt the second one was putting them in a deficit that would make the current US economy look good in comparison.

Them keeping it a secret, while a fair show of competence, is not all that shocking. It's not hard when you have a massive fucking empire tens of thousands of light years wide to hide it in. It's much more impressive when you're say, the Obsidian Order and you decide that even though your own government forbids you from having warships, you're gonna build 20 of the most advanced Keldon class warships without anyone noticing before the fleet is nearly complete.

See DS9's Defiant.

And as per your attempt at handwaving the Empire's million man problem--it's not that simple. While yes, obviously the Empire has greatly expanded upon its size, that in no way ignores the problems we see in the clone wars, where purchasing, arming, and equipping for just millions of clones was on the verge of financial ruin for the Republic.

It only makes me wonder what sort of costs the Empire was having to balance when you try and bring in the Death Star, the ISD, and all the other millions of ships. Sure, you can handwave the ships because most of them are stated to be old, so that isn't a problem...but the ISD was astronomical in its costs and so must have been the Death Star.

The Empire is probably happily on its way to financial ruin.

In the Battle of Endor, 100s of kms were considered to be well within attack rand.

Again, I fail to understand why you think this is impressive. ST battles can occur in the hundreds of thousands of km range. Dozens of times larger at least than what SW ranges have been shown.

A few dozen kilometers was considered suicidally close: the ROTS opening scene involved a surprise invasion, so the separatists had to get close fast to land troops and get Palpatine.

Oh for fuck's sake, that's hardly an excuse.

Meanwhile, Borg cubes, despite being obvious targets, are closed to within 10 km to fire on, and the cube often times misses!

Hey, let's try not to be a dishonest git, shall we? I can show you a great deal more misses for the SW side than you'll ever see for Star Trek.

The movies alone provide no evidence that the Death Star is chain reaction.

So the fuck what? EU provides the evidence for us.

The slave 1's laser cannons were showing gigajoules of energy, yet Obi Wan's light delta starfighter only got a small dent from it.

...And?

A sphat from within a hanger inside a star destroyer sheared a km long ship in half with one hit.

Yeah...that's not a good sign. Especially when we never see any of that nuclear level capability put to good use by their fighters. The carpet bombing campaigns for Ryloth didn't involve one fighter shooting at a large, spanning city with its blasters and zooming away as dozens of mushroom clouds rose up into the sky, shockwaves rippling through the city and producing half a dozen firestorms...no, it required numerous fighters with bomb shells dropping multiple bombs that looked to have a yield lower than a MOAB.

Ships are shown arriving from across the galaxy in mere hours, implying tens of millions of C (and films don't have the modest size galaxy quote)

And that's bullshit given that it's also suggested in some cases to take days or weeks to cross the Empire, so stop trying to nitpick.

So only using films:

Oh, so only using the films and George claimed proper canon? Yeah, you're sill fucked via Clone Wars, which happily dismisses your absurd claims. Want to see?

300,000 times stronger than steel hulls

Which is unproven and absurdly stupid.

Gigajoules for rapid fire starfighter laser cannons

Which makes one then wonder how steel 300,000x stronger than steel suffer damage from weapons in the gigajoule range.

DET super laser

Which isn't at all true and given how the explosion of the planet is entirely unrealistic...not likely. And even so, it requires something the size of a small moon.

100,000s km per hour speeds

Which is roughly the same distance a torpedo crosses in a second.

10s millions times C

Which, even if we considered kosher, would be useless in ST where no lanes are mapped out.

Construction ability to build a moon sized battlestation in under a year in secret

Which is entirely unsupported. The production of the DSII to my memory, was never stated. For all we know, the Empire could have been building more than one DS at a time, which would be supported by the movies. Ie, ten years or so into the project of the first one, Palpatine decides to have another one built.

[sonofccn]

The empire is a hyper racist anti xeno organization who's industrial base makes use of slaves from all over the Galaxy slavery which is an extreme cultural taboo amongst the Ferengi to the extent that Quark got extremely indignant when Sisko dared to pass judgement on his people with Rom in charge now the odds of them doing anything of the sort when Rom is creating a more modern society and is very pro fed is really low

Just a minor nitpick but while yes Quark did get indignant and boasted slavery never existed on his world in Rascals(TNG) the Ferengi didn't have issue taking prisoners and making them work. Characterzation marching on, Quark speaking in broadstrokes or simply an aberation performed by renagades I don't know but its there.

Now as to Rom yes he's a reform minded Ferengi but he is still a Ferengi and he'd likely at least offically play neutral and inact a "cash and carry" edict regarding the war, even if he openly sides with the Federation and decrees an embargo on the Empire there is little stopping Ferengi citizens from flying out with thier own personal ships to sell what they can or band togather into their own "corporations", think like East India Trading Company, and setting out to wheel or deal.

[Mr. Oragahn]

How about you disprove using only the films (not TCW, which is not "only the films") the ICS?

every one has that you ignore it or cry like some butthurt troll does not change that fact..but I'll humor the little one this time and give it what it wants...so then we see numerous times in the PT and at least once or twice in the OT that guns are manually fired like world war two era battle ships..in the venators the guns are out in the open with only a force shield to hold in the atmosphere yet no teraton or GT fire power is shown certainly when one of the republic ships literally shoots into the force shield and blows away a fucking case of shells and theres a huge explosion that looks more like your typical artillery fire due to negligence than any impressive fire power

we see imperial bombers totally unable to crack up asteroids that dominion fighters could shred in seconds...we see Star destroyers firing in ranges of only..a few hundred meters and *barely* hitting their target averaging one connect per several shots...we see tiny ass fucking asteroids moving slow as fuck smashing up an ISD bridge...SW fighters actually busting up DS armor and damaging the inside enough to kill storm troopers y'know the same fire power that when unshielded barely blows the top of R2's head off?

or hey how about when in a throw away line at the battle of Endor a fucking imperial officers screams "intensify forward fire power I don't want anything coming through!!"

that;'s fucking right Piet one of the few imperial officers with a god damn brain orders a fucking flack screen to be brought..a flack screen FREAKEN FLACK SCREEN FOR CHRISTS SAKES like it;s a god damn WW2 era naval battle

for the love of Christ the only thing that was ever remotely impressive was slave 1's little earth quake bombs which did more damage than anything ever shown in any subsequent films and thus falls under the SM vs FL exemption and should be barred from validity due to that

seriously you have never mustered an argument that hasn't been full of nonsense..none of us are obligated to provide you with any proof...simply because your the one making the outrageous claims you continue this..and it is deplorable

To be honest, Slave-I's mid weapons were impressive, in that they could deliver firepower well above that of modern tanks, at a tremendous rate.

The flak screen is a result of the much inferior accuracy in SW. They usually rely on shields to compensate, but had lost them around the bridge, and the fighters were flying through the cityscape of the superstructure.

As for the X-wings, they were shooting at structures on the surface, some of them being barely protected obviously, and perhaps filled with stuff, at least air, providing matter to create "superheated gases". What threw stormtroopers tumbling was the destruction of a power terminal.

[Admiral Breetai]

my.

See, the thing is you're both wrong.

And you're both right.

Oragahn is correct when he says that the Empire does have the physical capability to overwhelm the defenses of any Star Trek planet and are capable of causing mass destruction. That is a fact. EU wise, they do have millions of ships and even without the EU, their fleet would still be rather immense.

it would? the films don't really support a fleet being that large I mean I'd buy it being in the tens of thousands though ISD's would have to be in a minority in that

The problem is, the Empire is incapable of fielding those ships without causing drastic instability within their own territory. It's such a problem that they could never scrounge up the military assets needed to invade and put down Mon Calamari which was openly rebelling and building large scale warships that they were supplying to the Rebellion.

could they even afford to field or equip men for such a long deployment?

Any power--any, no matter what morons like Leo1 might claim, is going to aim to destroy the enemy's infrastructure first. That's rule one of how you win a war. That's why the US became a world superpower after WWII; everyone else was too fucked up from the ravages of war while the worst we suffered was a bloody nose from Japan's sneak attack--which barely amounted to a scratch industrial wise.

the issue here is that the feds don't necessarily need to do this while it is very important take out the two force users at the head..and well we saw what happened during ROTJ partying in the streets knocking down imperial statues on the capital no less kinda speaks to how helpless the military is with out their boss

busting up industrial centers still important though

The Empire however, was incapable of amassing the military power required to take out what would essentially equal to a large Federation fleet in ship numbers--and practically equal a small Federation fleet and some orbital defense systems.

you make it sound like the imperials would barely be able to recover from each battle lost in terms of ship losses

So to believe that the Empire, for all of its industrial might, could wage war with the Federation and survive is questionable at best and highly unlikely at worst. Especially given that they did collapse on their own with no outside help.

I doubt they could between loosing ships left and right and their predecessor suffering serious issues with man power in the millions you'd think even if the empire can field more it's going to end badly..economically

I don't think you realize the fleet disparity size. Yes, if the Emperor made a holy decree that x planet is to die, it will die. The Emperor would basically be cutting off his own leg and nailing himself in the balls to do it, but it could be done.

I do simply because I never saw fleets numbering in the thousands when they needed it..and could field it with home field advantage in the films..much less tens or hundreds and thus will not factor such things in

if you wanna use EU numbers based on TCW and Film showings it'd take a shit load of ISD backed up fleets to really take a major fed sector and the sheer amount of destroyed vessels would make holding it all but impossible..and certainly not worth it

To be fair, Trek has shown to have its own legally insane and mentally retarded officers and leaders too.

oh absolutely...and really painful examples as well

And admiral, they are clearly not the brightest bunch, but let's stick to at least a respectable view of them, eh?

I do to the ones that deserve it..Tarkin (though he had a bad team around him) Piet more or less his secretary the Generals that did the ground work at hoth and so on but its few and far between

Shockwaves don't exist in space and we don't know for sure if an SW plasma bolt will cause the torpedo to emit a photonic shockwave.

they do in psychics ignoring trek and wars on at least several occasions lol. but that aside i meant anti matter now free floating in space and likely contaminating the fuck out of unshielded ISD's

They have actually. They have disruptors that act just like ST phasers/disruptors.

Unfortunately, the implications of how those weapons act in SW is not really something an SW fan would like to bring up.

what happens? I was under the impression this tech didn't exist...can i has run down?

The outer colonies would be in trouble. There is simply not enough there defending them from even a small fleet and the Empire would have no qualms holding them hostage to prevent a counter-invasion force.

I wonder how many of those guys on those colonies would be armed? what type of resistance would they be facing

I think he was referring to orbital bombardment.

yeah he corrected me

On the other hand, I would also think that the Ferengi would care less for the Empire than they do for even Starfleet. Quark, who does tend to represent many of the core ideals of the Ferengi people, is appalled at how the human race was. He was disgusted with their violence, their waste, and how they acted in general. The Empire embraces the absolute worst aspects of humanity.

maybe it's because I'm such a pro capitalist kinda gai but when ever Quark lectured sisko though incredibly annoying he did kinda come off..right for doing so (though a bit misaimed) maybe it's just because of the condescending attitude sisko and other fed officers have at times

You can be willing to be more than one Ferengi would open dealings with the Empire--you can at least assume that warp drive, sensors, and possibly even basic weapon designs are going to be compromised. Fortunately, Starfleet is intelligent enough to know that they will be compromised.

sure rogue Fereingi but would they be dumb enough to sell them up to modern spec tech and weapons? it'd be smarter to hock off stuff from a decade or more ago

However, even this loss doesn't ensure that the Empire can somehow match the UFP playing field. It would require a massive refit of not only the weapon systems aboard the ship, but its power systems, sensors, shield generators, and the entire conceptual design of their ships. On an ISD, it would simply be patch and pray, while older ships are going to be too small and too incapable to even begin properly arming them to fight against the UFP.

Most of all, this would require time and resources the Empire doesn't have.

The ISD already cost so much that the Empire nearly fractured under its strongest era when the member worlds found out. An antimatter-matter generation program would likely cost billions of credits and a decade to get a working prototype for a warship, let alone a properly designed one you'd need after field testing. And it would likely still be inferior to any design Starfleet would have used decades ago.

Then you need to design antimatter weapons capable of creating a large enough bang to harm UFP ships, but small and agile enough, with shields to hit said ships. And what of FTL? Even the smaller, less bulky nacelle designs by say BoPs and such would require significant space to put on an ISD and how much room would there be for the hyperdrive?

Or would the Empire simply have to build an entire new class of warp-capable scout ships/probes to map hyperspace routes so their larger ships can use hyperdrive? And how fast would these ships be? Even warp 5 would require years for them to map out routes large enough to make them a real strategic threat to the UFP, let alone enough to conquer a significant portion of the quadrant.

every time one of you guys describes the empire I get a mental image of the late Ottoman Empire or the USSR barely able to hold onto what it had...feed itself and maintain it's massive force

Since the cartoon is however canon now, Star Wars now loses to the likes of Babylon 5 and movie Starship Troopers. Which was one reason why I gave up arguing for them, besides disgust with Warsie hypocrisy and pseudoscientific arguments.

wait a minute? what the heck? did I miss something from the starship trooper movie universe? I mean seriously? those ships got taken out by essentially farts in the battle of Klandathu mind you the b budget sequels looked like they sucked donkey balls so I never bothered watching them..but really? they got tougher?

Oh, and another thing, one doesn't have to get deep and philosophical over this stuff. It's a hobby, and none to serious a one.

truer words have never been spoken

Just a minor nitpick but while yes Quark did get indignant and boasted slavery never existed on his world in Rascals(TNG) the Ferengi didn't have issue taking prisoners and making them work. Characterzation marching on, Quark speaking in broadstrokes or simply an aberation performed by renagades I don't know but its there.

they'd be more indentured servants then slaves though since I can't imagine a Fereingi refusing to sell "freedom" to the person in question the concept of slavery due to the inability to eventually buy off your liberty at a high price seemed appalling to him

Now as to Rom yes he's a reform minded Ferengi but he is still a Ferengi and he'd likely at least offically play neutral and inact a "cash and carry" edict regarding the war, even if he openly sides with the Federation and decrees an embargo on the Empire there is little stopping Ferengi citizens from flying out with thier own personal ships to sell what they can or band togather into their own "corporations", think like East India Trading Company, and setting out to wheel or deal.

Rom pulling a British East India company? I can see it from quark or his cousin galen maybe Brunt but Rom?

mind you the idea of trade backed up by maurader enforced gun boat diplomacy and all that is pretty epic

[Admiral Breetai]

To be honest, Slave-I's mid weapons were impressive, in that they could deliver firepower well above that of modern tanks, at a tremendous rate.

ouch....

The flak screen is a result of the much inferior accuracy in SW. They usually rely on shields to compensate, but had lost them around the bridge, and the fighters were flying through the cityscape of the superstructure.

yeah but you don't have back up shields? it seems really poor for a sci fi power not low grade that needs to throw up a flack screen

As for the X-wings, they were shooting at structures on the surface, some of them being barely protected obviously, and perhaps filled with stuff, at least air, providing matter to create "superheated gases". What threw stormtroopers tumbling was the destruction of a power terminal.

in ANH luke shoots at armored buildings in a strafe and storm troopers go down..in ROTJ pieces of the DS2 where on fire from fighters was what I was referring to that's terrible

[Mr. Oragahn]

This thread is a damn trainwreck.

I'll give you my own two cents: Previous to the prequels and the Clone Wars cartoon, I think SW would've trounced ST. And they wouldn't need the ICS for it, the EU on its own would be more than enough. And not because of style over substance, but because their feats were generally more impressive. (Except maybe TOS, which was higher powered overall than the other series, but still wouldn't have had the numbers to compete.)

Well the problem is that at that time, most of the data came from biased warsies. We've seen that many EU sources from that period were conveniently ignored as they painted a totally different canvas. Then, the flood of misinterpretations and wank just achieved the picture and made people believe things about SW which were just plain wrong.

That said, the Empire would still remain strong, but not Wong strong, or even more silly, ICS strong.

Even by Darkstar canon, a million worlds plus Death Star and Star Destroyers would've been enough. Not the same level of curbstomp, but still a decisive defeat for the Federation.

By the purist canon, as established by Sansweet, which at that time merely included movies, novelizations, radio dramas and eventually scripts, not a single element gave proof that ISDs could fire or tank megatons of firepower.

We had TIE fighters barely capable of scratching mere rock while trying to force the Millennium Falcon to a halt in TESB. We had, in the same TESB, an ISD having its bridge tower completely obliterated by a low kiloton impact. We have the Millennium Falcon clearly threatened by the snowtroopers' E-web cannon.
The only good things were mentions of nearby thermonuclear fire rocking the bridge of Rebel cruisers in ROTJ, and that came from the novelization. We've never seen any bridge rocked at all during the movie.

Wongies tried to pull silly figures about Solo's blasters on Tatooine (now largely debunked) and from a grate supposedly vaporized right in front of the faces of Luke, Chewie, Leia and Han.

With the PT, there's nothing impressive that's been added either, aside from the seismic mines which Saxton rushed to seize as evidence of gigatons of firepower, when all quantifiable effects against a square meter of rock pointed to sub kiloton energies, for a device which was completely exotic anyway.

And the lightsabres, and that is all.

When you think of it, objectively, nothing, absolutely nothing ever supported the remarkable claims assembled by Wongies and Saxtonites (often the same people), and if you'd scale up the firepower of blaster or ground/air vehicles cannons to the size of batteries on warships, you'd precisely reach something in the low terajoules (if the size of the cannon had no relevance, why snowspeeders's cannons would be so huge for example, and yet so weak?).

Since the cartoon is however canon now, Star Wars now loses to the likes of Babylon 5 and movie Starship Troopers. Which was one reason why I gave up arguing for them, besides disgust with Warsie hypocrisy and pseudoscientific arguments.

Now come on. SW has seriously capped, but not to that absurd level. Plus the visuals of TCWS are so retarded on multiple accounts that they can't be taken at face value.
Dialogue can, though. But nothing in dialogue I've checked from season one would really prevent ISDs from having high TJ/low PJ firepower.

SW can still easily win with sheer numbers and huge wings of fighters and bombers to harass the larger crafts which are absolutely impotent when it comes to shooting down small targets.

I'm still waiting for the live action series, if Lucas finally gets that stick out of his A and realizes that many companies didn't wait to produce SF with all sorts of styles, VFX techniques and budgets, and no died bleeding.
He should grow a spine. Besides, iirc, the live action series would be helmed by someone else, a fan of SW. This could seriously spice things up: I think Lucas has provided an interesting background, but he totally sucked on the micro scale.

[Mr. Oragahn]

What is seen in the movies is AT ATs shaking/crushing Echo Base; Han and Leia were seen in clips falling as the base collapsed around them while the AT AT's were firing from kilometers away, and Echo base was under a MOUNTAIN!

They fell when something was definitely heard coming down on them. Something whistling. Nothing like a blaster's or TL bolt.
Plus it's easy to explain some of the internal shocks since the AT-ATs had a direct shot at one of the gaping entrances. Any bolt landing inside the base would provoke quakes.

The Death Star, the imperial fleet and the rebel fleet were all moving at hundreds of thousands of kms per hour as X wings went from Yavin 4 to so far away that Yavin is just a small ball in a matter of minutes. The hull of the Death Star would have to be 300,000 times stronger than structural steel; calculated only from the movies, for this to happen.

Calc?

The Empire constructed the Death Star 2 in less than a year in secret in the outer rim, dwarfing the entire production of q militarized Federation over the entire Dominion war. This construction feat puts Star Trek to shame...and the movies have no million man clone army to weigh it down. The Empire made more in secret than the Federation likely did in a decade of full mobilization.

Although I believe the one year duration is wrong, it's clear that the Empire did that much more than the UFP. But it was a total waste.

The movies alone provide no evidence that the Death Star is chain reaction.

Depends what you mean by chain reaction, but it clearly totally disproves that it's a pure DET system.
Oh, btw, are you going to drag your DS related claims in all possible current threads?

The slave 1's laser cannons were showing gigajoules of energy, yet Obi Wan's light delta starfighter only got a small dent from it.

Wrong. Try megajoules.

A sphat from within a hanger inside a star destroyer sheared a km long ship in half with one hit.

It wasn't 1 km long, and it fired at the same spot for a continuous time. The beam didn't get through the other side either, despite the beam continuing to poor energy long after the ship started to explode.
The violence of the expansion of debris is just enough to claims a couple terajoules there.

Ships are shown arriving from across the galaxy in mere hours, implying tens of millions of C (and films don't have the modest size galaxy quote)

Some are shown to be excruciatingly slow.

[Mr. Oragahn]

To be honest, Slave-I's mid weapons were impressive, in that they could deliver firepower well above that of modern tanks, at a tremendous rate.

ouch....

You know, the larger Jemmie Bugs really weren't outputting much DET firepower either. Their disruptors were seen, for example, hitting ice asteroids and doing nothing until they'd suddenly pop. Even the energy for the popping part would hardly be huge, considering the size and speed of the resulting debris.
Then you can compare the size of the Jemmie Bugs and the Slave-I, and the fact that the Slave-I has a far superior rate of fire.

yeah but you don't have back up shields? it seems really poor for a sci fi power not low grade that needs to throw up a flack screen

Apparently they didn't, or if they had any, something prevented them from putting them up. It's not impossible. When you look at the catastrophe of the nuclear plants at Fukushima, you see that even the backup generators were down.

As for the X-wings, they were shooting at structures on the surface, some of them being barely protected obviously, and perhaps filled with stuff, at least air, providing matter to create "superheated gases". What threw stormtroopers tumbling was the destruction of a power terminal.

in ANH luke shoots at armored buildings in a strafe and storm troopers go down..

Those who go down were those manning those turrets with a limited arc of fire. They're naturally exposed, and I'm not even sure the windows, which can retain air, were capable of providing any form of shielding against bolts. They essentially were exposed pillboxes.
It doesn't mean that there wasn't copious amounts of armour beneath. It's not a bad design either because you do need your weapons to stick out. If they had been stuffed deeper inside the crust, their firing range would have been completely useless against such crafts, and yet they clearly were intended to shoot down small crafts, considering their caliber and the orientation of the windows. They were not pointing at the stars above them.