Logistics of Invasion: Federation vs Empire

[AFT]

Ok, so I agree on this point, but that's not what I meant.
The Empire controls over 1 000 000 systems... The sheer quantity of Starships it can muster for one single engagement will be wayhigher than any Alpha or Beta quadrant power could.
Look, guys, when 2500 ships coming in as reinforcements are estimated sufficient to screw the Feddie-Rommie-Klingie (ok, never tell a Klingon I called it a Klingie please... :) ) fleets, then an industrial power which has many hundreds to at least a thousand times more ships will be a force to reckon with...

The size of the Dominion fleet on the other side of the wormhole is of relatively importance, even if Starfleet had 10,000 ships or 30,000 for that matter, they were already fighting the Dominion forces in the Alpha quadrant and were barely slowing them down! With a fresh fleet of 2,800 ships the Dominion could have been able to send significant reinforcements to every front or better keep the fleet as a single task force and attack, say, Earth, with Starfleet already strained as they were they wouldn’t had any chance to stop them. See, we cannot take a single fact and ignore everything around it.

[AFT]

Of course, but an Empire capable of building a whole new fleet of warships in the span of 5 years seems impressive to me.
The Republic only had Acclamators at the start of the Clone Wars, and during most of the Clone Wars too, but then all of a sudden, by RotS they only use the new Venator-class Star Destroyer.
That means they must have been building Venators by the bucket load during the first years of the war.

But those were Republic and CIS fleet deployments not the Empire’s. The largest known deployment for the Imperial fleet was 30+ ships at the battle of Endor (RoTJ) as we all know or should know. And don’t tell me that it was only because the rebel fleet was very small or not powerful enough to require a larger force to defeat them. Let see a real life example shall we? The USA invasion of Afghanistan. They didn’t send only a Carrier task force, did they? They used very considerable forces to defeat the much weaker Afghanistan military. Why? To be sure to win, simply as that. Sure, we can say that the Imperial fleet/Emperor were overconfident or even arrogant regarding the capabilities of the Rebel fleet but that wouldn’t help their cause either. Subestimate your enemy is never a good thing.

[AFT]

I don't think invading the Federation would be a cakewalk for the Empire.
I just think they would win due to greater material ressources, and bigger forces

That was the point of my first post; that the Empire would only win due to sheer resources and size not because of their technological edge or the power of their ships. And that contrary to the believe of many pro-Wars debaters it wouldn’t be, as you say, a “cakewalk” but a bloody and long affair, one that would surely doom the Empire as well. Rebellion anyone?

However it would require somewhat special circumstances for the Empire to win, a more realistic situation would result on a stalemate. Neither side able to definitely defeat the contrary.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Praeothmin: volume doesn't equal firepower, or power output for that matter. M/AM reactors are substantially more powerful than nuclear fusion generators. And the reason the Republic isn't seen to be using re-commished old capitol ships is that it doesn't have many (if any) that are worth a damn in a fight. They probably got scrapped and their materials were used to build the new Venators (that's my theory for why we don't see old ships in combat for the Republic/Empire ever).

Also, if the Empire doesn't have any enemies other than the Rebel Alliance, why would it need around one ship per system? Not every system is neccesarily worth defending either. And as for ship production being increased once a war starts, I think the Rebels would make it a priority to destroy shipyards and disrupt supply-lines.

Also the Federation's list of potential allies is longer than most people think: Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Cardassians, Breen, Gorn, Zen Kethi (sp?), Tholians, and possibly even the Dominion. Even without the Dominion, we could be looking at +50,000 ships.

[Praeothmin]

The size of the Dominion fleet on the other side of the wormhole is of relatively importance, even if Starfleet had 10,000 ships or 30,000 for that matter, they were already fighting the Dominion forces in the Alpha quadrant and were barely slowing them down! With a fresh fleet of 2,800 ships the Dominion could have been able to send significant reinforcements to every front or better keep the fleet as a single task force and attack, say, Earth, with Starfleet already strained as they were they wouldn’t had any chance to stop them. See, we cannot take a single fact and ignore everything around it.

I really don't see where we disagree on this.
That is exactly what I've been saying from the get go:
If 2800 ships coming in reinforcements are sufficient to scare the combined Federation-Romulan-Klingon fleets, then how would they react to a fleet of 3000, or 5000, or even 10000 ships coming as reinforcements?

But those were Republic and CIS fleet deployments not the Empire’s

But those became the Empire's after Palpatine declared Martial law, and the Republic became the Empire. All of the republic ships became Imperial ships.
And just because we don't see the Venators and Acclamators anymore, it doesn't mean they magically vanished.
Maybe since they're old news, they are now guarding the borders of Imperial space, who knows?

And don’t tell me that it was only because the rebel fleet was very small or not powerful enough to require a larger force to defeat them. Let see a real life example shall we? The USA invasion of Afghanistan. They didn’t send only a Carrier task force, did they? They used very considerable forces to defeat the much weaker Afghanistan military. Why? To be sure to win, simply as that. Sure, we can say that the Imperial fleet/Emperor were overconfident or even arrogant regarding the capabilities of the Rebel fleet but that wouldn’t help their cause either. Subestimate your enemy is never a good thing.

I agree here entirely, the Empire has a long history of underestimating their opponents (and teddy bears), and of overestimating the competence of their personnel.
Maybe they figured 1 fully armed and protected Deathstar, plus 1 SSD and many ISDs were sufficient to wipe the small Rebel fleet.
I'm pretty sure the Emperor didn't count on the shields protecting the Deathstar to fail, in fact he told Luke exactly that:
"Oh, I'm afraid the shield will be quite operationnal when you Rebel fleet arrives!", or something to that effect.
And don't forget he had a "Legion of my best troops" down on Endor...
He he, best troops indeed... :)

I don't agree with your comparison, for the simple fact that the US forces had absolutely nothing that compares to the Deathstar.
Even if they had, I doubt they would have used it.
No matter what most people think of the US, they're nothing like the Empire in terms of cruelty and aggressivity.

That was the point of my first post; that the Empire would only win due to sheer resources and size not because of their technological edge or the power of their ships. And that contrary to the believe of many pro-Wars debaters it wouldn’t be, as you say, a “cakewalk” but a bloody and long affair, one that would surely doom the Empire as well. Rebellion anyone?

The rebellion in this case can be compared to the Iraquis still fighting against the US (not in human values, but in type of combat).
The Empire could not eliminate the Rebellion not because the Rebellion was well equipped or well trained, they couldn't eliminate the Rebellion because the Rebellion wasn't a clear, well defined enemy.
People in the Rebellion were fighting against what they perceived to be a tyrannical Empire.
They were sparcely located, kept to the galactic shadows, and only took pot shots at the Empire before they obtained the plans for the first Deathstar.
And if it hadn't been for a certain moisture farmer, the head of the Rebellion would have been wiped out...
And the second Deathstar fiasco originated when the Emperor came up with a plan to bring most of the Rebels at the same place, at the same time, at the mercy of the Empire.
And once again, if it hadn't been for a certain Force user and his friends... By by Rebels.

Praeothmin: volume doesn't equal firepower, or power output for that matter.

I never said it did... :)
I was merely stating that if you can build bigger ships using more materials than your neighbor, who has the better industrial capacity?
For example, if construction crew 1 can build a 50 story building in one year, and construction crew 2 can build a 100 story building in the same amount of time, who has the better building capacity?

As for firepower, I believe I have said:

Capital ship to Capital ship, both universes are equal

Ok, maybe not equal, it is my firm belief that a Sovereign-class starship would kick an ISD's butt...
But I also firmly believe that the Empire could win vs the Feds and their allies.

Also the Federation's list of potential allies is longer than most people think: Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Cardassians, Breen, Gorn, Zen Kethi (sp?), Tholians, and possibly even the Dominion. Even without the Dominion, we could be looking at +50,000 ships.

Yes, maybe so (though I'm not too sure about some of those "allies"), but the fact of the matter remains that they will not start as allies, just as in the Dominion war, and I'm pretty many of those would ally themselves with the Empire if possible (like the Cardassians did in the Dominion war).
And by the time those races became allies with the federation, there might not be a Federation left to be allied with.

And don't forget the Deathstar.
One blast, BOOM, one less planet...
That's a pretty powerful weapon, one of mass destruction, and of mass fear...

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

The Federation's (and all Dominion War participants for that matter) fleet size is going to vary drastically depending upon when the war takes place. If it is right after Nemesis then they would still be rebuilding from the War and would be a long way from where they want to be fleet-wise. If however, we assume Trek time continues at the same rate as our time then it would be four years after Nemesis (2383?) and eight years after the end of the Dominion War. That shoud be sufficient time to fully rebuild your forces (Nazi Germany went from practically nothing to one of a few world powers in that time frame) and replenish your ranks.

Oh, the 2800 figure is form before the Romulans joined the war, and if memory serves less than a year later the Dominion had another several thousand ship fleet waiting on the GQ side of the wormhole.

I also don't think the Deathstar is very important from a tactical standpoint. Of course it would have a huge impact on morale and on the political situation, but it doesn't actually seem that tough. It lacks deflector shields, has fuel tanks on the surface and a relatively thin hull (X-wing cannons cause damage to corradors). And there is no way that UFP sensors aren't going to find that reactor port. So in Danube class vs DS1, I take the runabout.

[GStone]

We know that at one point that internal sensors were set to pick up electrical impulses of people to detect them, for what appears to be the default setting, and only for people (lost puppies need the sensors recalibrated). Do we know if they are still work this way?

[Jedi Master Spock]

I really don't see where we disagree on this.
That is exactly what I've been saying from the get go:
If 2800 ships coming in reinforcements are sufficient to scare the combined Federation-Romulan-Klingon fleets, then how would they react to a fleet of 3000, or 5000, or even 10000 ships coming as reinforcements?

The AQ Dominion fleet afterwards numbered 30,000 between Jem'Hadar, Cardassians, and Breen. 2800 would have been at least 9% of that - discounting the insane Jem'Hadar industrial production rates and the fact that the Breen were still neutral at the time - a substantial edge in a hotly contested war that none of the participants could be sure of the outcome of.

The biggest problem the Federation faced was not only a noticable reinforcement of the Dominion forces (2800 ships would represent a substantial fraction of the total Dominion forces even after the Breen joined up), but that those reinforcements would keep coming - 2800 now, a thousand more the next month, etc - once the wormhole was opened to Dominion traffic from the Gamma Quadrant.

[Praeothmin]

And there is no way that UFP sensors aren't going to find that reactor port. So in Danube class vs DS1, I take the runabout.

Except for the fact that that port was heavily defended, and the Runabout has the maneuverability of a brick, which means it will get pounded and destroyed before it can even close the distance.
Also, I doubt a shielded photorp will be able to go through that port.

The biggest problem the Federation faced was not only a noticable reinforcement of the Dominion forces (2800 ships would represent a substantial fraction of the total Dominion forces even after the Breen joined up), but that those reinforcements would keep coming - 2800 now, a thousand more the next month, etc - once the wormhole was opened to Dominion traffic from the Gamma Quadrant.

Agreed.
And that's what the Federation would be facing from the Empire IMO.
Even if the Empire can only throw in the same number of ships against the Feds that the allied Dominion forces were, that means that the Feds will still be outnumbered, and will still be facing a Deathstar.

I also don't think the Deathstar is very important from a tactical standpoint. Of course it would have a huge impact on morale and on the political situation, but it doesn't actually seem that tough. It lacks deflector shields, has fuel tanks on the surface and a relatively thin hull (X-wing cannons cause damage to corradors).

Which still didn't panick anyone inside (except those in those blasted corridors), and wasn't stopping the Deathstar from powering its main laser.
If it hadn't been for the Force induced targetting capabilities of Luke, and the fact that proton torps are small and highly maneuverable (a lot more than any photorp I've ever seen), then the Rebels would be left without a main base, and their leaders would now be remembered as martyrs for their cause... :)

So I have to disagree, a battlestation that can travel between systems at the equivalent of high Warp, with the firepower to blow up a world in one shot will be a major factor in any engagement.

[GStone]

So far, the best plan I can come with for the Wars side to win is primarily gonna be what we saw in the movies. The same thing Palpatine did to get control of the Republic, but different. He'd use the Force to influence people in the highest positions of power in the Federation he could manipulate. This brings up the questions of if he has to be in the same room with the one he wants to influence, does he need line of sight or if he just has to know who it is. I'm not sure how specific the canon gets on this.

It's doubtful any direct thought reading is gonna be done because Vader would have done it with Liea, but what they used was a machine. So, the best they could do is getting impressions, which would leave out a lot of specifics. So, they'd have to rely more on recordings done by those in the area. It could be done by any imperial agent, another alien or even a droid. While droids sensors are not that impressive, a microphone and video camera could pick up a hell of a lot and information seems to be often freely given for how many things work in the Federation. There's probably instruction manuals for repair for civilian use for almost eerything that could be used to get an idea of what to work with for later (not using Federation tech to fight, like grabbing a runabout to fight a
Miranda, of course).

Any ship/troop engagements would be limited more to testing out weaknesses, using guerilla tactics. We've seen two klingons get through a transporter with a disassembled disrupter, so something lethal that's broken down into benign parts might still get through. That was during early TNG, but it might still hold true in the modern era. Today, there's much concern with benign liquids being brought aboard and assembled on an airplane midflight (a very very hard thing to actually blow up a plane this way, but not impossible). A droid could carry a few benign things inside and combine them, as it makes a mad dash for a reactor. There'd be some trial runs before actually bringing the explosives. You could claim that there's a glitch and it went wonky. I'm not sure just how powerful their explosives could be, but there's a chance it could be something that could be used. Maybe just break through the coolant tanks, like how Data did in FC. That stuff spreads and it's got a few seconds before some security feature is activated by a crewmen in another part of the ship or an automated safety feature. Asking people about what to do in case something happens, like reactor failure or coolant leak tank breakage or something else benign in thought that looks like it's just a concern for safety for everyone is what people operatives would come in.

For how to get this done with the droids? Well, assuming Vader is still around, he couuld be stationed at the secret base that's making the droids, probably in some system no one is bothering with. It's out of the way, so no one really worries about looking into it that much, so supply runs are gonna go unnoticed more. It could be a system that has natural energy fields of a kind that interferes with Fed sensors or something. And Vader is there primarily to worry about people being near and detecting them. He does his best to influence people to stay away, while the droids are being built. There might be a few people, but it'd mostly be droids at the base to limit the chance of someone picking up life signs. Artificial life forms may be picked up on sensors, but that's where Palpatine planned to have Vader come in, to try to influence the people working the sensors, so they don't notice it and maybe have them erase part of the sensor logs without them realizing it. That would depend more on the strength of will of the peron, so using the funky radiation area is the primary tactic for hiding.

I suggest having a secret base near Federation territory and not have them built in Empire territory because of how the distance between their 2 civilizations might be circumvented. Hell, it could be something as noticable as the bajoran wormhole opening. The transport of droids and the living would be limited on sensors to just the space-time distortions of the hyperdrive and is overlooked. There would be some extended traveling to help prevent their path being traced back to the secret base.

The rest I've gotten so far is Palpatine doing this till he can influence the decisions at shipyards, politicians, etc. as much as he could. I wouldn't put it past him to have fanned the flames of fear and paranoia in the senators. I'm not sure just how much the canon went into it, but I don't remember it coming up.

The next thing that needs to be considered before he started his plan would be a few test runs of how well telepaths and empaths, like the vulcans and betazoids, could pick up on his Force work on others. Would they pick up on something out of place or could they realize just what is happening and who did it? The smart thing would be to test it out on civilians and work you way up to more powerful people and with stronger and stronger psychics. Find if there are any things that would work better with one race of psychics over another one. Trek telepathy/empathy is a physical thing and the Force originates from a material source, so it's up in the air just what would happen. We know that psychics can pick up on things left behind by people because of what people leave behind, but how do they know of nonliving objects? Is it from what's left behind by the living or is it something of both the living and the nonliving that psychics can pick up on? Troi picked up on emotions from Data, who was nonliving and she was just half betazoid. So, a full betazoid should have picked them up, too, but the emotions she picked could have just been a simulation that was designed to be as much in line with emotions from the living as could be done and wasn't a true indicator of what nonliving things leave behind in a place, if they leave anything behind at all to be picked up in psychic visions later on someone that's psychic.

The secret base is gonna time to set up. You've got finding the right spot, setting up the equipment. Finding out how much supplies are gonna have to be shipped and how much can be gotten from where the base is, etc.c so that can be worked on, while Palpatine and Vader work on finding out how well their Force abilities work in Fed territory.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

I agree that the Empire could defeat the Federation, if they played it a lot smarter than just a comparison of brute force. It should be kept in mind that it is a lot easier to influence people who all ready listen to you than complete strangers. Palpatine was the Supreme Chancellor of the senate, so he already had some influence with the senators. So I don't think his method would be as effective with the Federation Council. However, their ability so weasel there way into a faction's territory has been severely limited by the Dominion doing so rather recently.

[GStone]

It is easier, but I could see him trying to do it from a distance and just nudging people a little at a time here and there. It'd take a bit with only nudging people. He used the Force to dull the senses of some really powerful psychics in Star Wars terms. He hid he was a sith even in their presence of him and kept them from seeing he was a sith in the past and the future until he gave himself away. It's likely he kept those that were his apprentises and those that knew he was a sith from giving it away, if they were read by a jedi or one in training. This had to be every single jedi. Dooku and Maul would have helped, but they were still his apprentises. Even with the powers we saw them use, they weren't always as powerful as other psychics in scifi, but still. That kind of Force use is still extraordinary.

[Mike DiCenso]

Now that the PT is finally done and over, I have to wonder how much of the Sith ability to cloud their enemies was actually their power, or given the Prophecy of the One, how much was this so-called "Will of the Force" in bringing "balance" back.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Or represented the corruption of the Jedi Order. They were focusing on all the wrong things.

[GStone]

But, what is balance or corruption when it comes to the Force? If there's a will of the Force, why would it let itself become corrupted or unbalanced? If destroying the sith "rebalances" the Force, then what are the sith by nature, the Force having a bad day? The Force's bad digestion? If midichlorians are the way to use the Force and gain insight into various things, why would the Force interact with the midichlorians of the sith at all?