The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun May 31, 2009 3:28 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:But why would any cadet not keep a cool head?
1) It's a simulation so everyone knows their lives are not in jeopardy regardless of whether there are 5 or 5000 Klingon ships attacking.
2) Everyone knows what Kobayashi Maru is and that it's unbeatable so there is no pressure to actually pass the test.

Really this should be the most relaxing and casual test on the Academy rather than some kind of dreaded ordeal it's been portrayed as.
    1. How often do you play with your computer? I have to admit, that I have no time to do it. But what I could observe, a player sometimes seems to forget that he is only playing a game. And that when there is only a monitor and a keyboard. Now imagine how easily it would be to forget that you are only playing a game if you are in a simulator and all looks real and there are explosions and the deck is really shacking.
    2. As I have already said, that's the problem with each training. You know that you are not in a real danger. But it is trained nevertheless. Do you propose that situations that would be in real life highly stressful aren't to be trained because a training can not really simulate the stressfulness of such situation if everyone knows that it is not real?
    • Who says that everyone knows that Kobayashi Maru is unbeatable? The cadets may merely know that it is a very difficult test that was until now not beaten by anyone. But unbeatable? Why should Starfleet makes such a test?

      And for those who are hoping to get sometime the command of a starship (maybe 0,1 percent of all graduates assuming one Starship captain on thousand other officers and non officers on ships and space- and ground stations etc.) it is a challenge to be the first to beat that test and not fail like all the others.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That said, I really wonder the point of that test if it's that hard. Perhaps to teach a lesson that at times you're fighting against greater odds, so much it may seem you cannot win, but you still need to follow orders?
Exactly. Not only for the crew to follow orders but also for the acting captain to still give orders and still be an island of determination on a chaotic bridge.

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sun May 31, 2009 3:31 pm

According to the novelization Kirk was under the firm belief that he had done the right thing in that instance. His argument was basically that the test itself was a cheat since you went in under the assumption that it was beatable, and the parameters were contantly reprogrammed and changed to prevent someone from winning (without the students knowledge, Kirk noticed this on his second attempt at the test). And thus cheating a test that in itself was a cheat was only fair, and nothing in the rules said it wasn't allowed.

In essence: The test was officially said to be beatable. The only way to beat it was to cheat. Thus cheating would have to be allowed.

We also know that ultimately the brass would've agreed with him on that point.

As for why it would be effective: It seems the test is pretty much one of the last things you do at the Academy (given that the people who took it graduates afterwards), and so it stands to reason that students will go in expecting much of their training and evaluation to hang on that one singular test. Thus the instructors look on what they do when they finally start realizing that their going to fail that last test. Do they do what they're supposed to as captains, or will they start taking weird risks in a last hope to defeat the test?

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun May 31, 2009 3:46 pm

  • If it is not too much a bother, could you please quote the scene during the hearing, where Spock explains the purpose of the test and Kirk defends himself.

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Post by l33telboi » Sun May 31, 2009 3:55 pm

Actually, it is too much of a bother, I only have the audiobook, and stopping and transcribing what it says would take quite long (the scene in the novel is a lot longer then in the movie).

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Post by GStone » Sun May 31, 2009 5:14 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:Who says that the main purpose of that simulation is to test a cadet? Could it be possible that the main purpose is training; that the cadets are supposed to learn to do their job even in a hopeless situation?
Didn't Spock this was the purpose in the Kirk' trial?
Kane Starkiller wrote:But why would any cadet not keep a cool head?
1) It's a simulation so everyone knows their lives are not in jeopardy regardless of whether there are 5 or 5000 Klingon ships attacking.
2) Everyone knows what Kobayashi Maru is and that it's unbeatable so there is no pressure to actually pass the test.

Really this should be the most relaxing and casual test on the Academy rather than some kind of dreaded ordeal it's been portrayed as.

It's about how the one the test is for is gonna react, as if it was real. If it's treated as not important, it's a red flag against them. Those that treat it as real and still try their best are gonna be the ones looked better upon. And if you treat it like a joke, they aren't gonna really care that much for your advancement, so they'll concentrate resources on those that take it seriously, like special attemtion training.
Who is like God arbour wrote:If it is not too much a bother, could you please quote the scene during the hearing, where Spock explains the purpose of the test and Kirk defends himself.
If I remember correctly, it was something like "the point of this test is to see your reaction in a no win scenario" and Kirk says "I don't believe in the no win scenario".

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun May 31, 2009 6:26 pm

GStone wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Who says that the main purpose of that simulation is to test a cadet? Could it be possible that the main purpose is training; that the cadets are supposed to learn to do their job even in a hopeless situation?
Didn't Spock this was the purpose in the Kirk' trial?
What has Spock said? That the main purpose of that simulation is to test a cadet? Or that the main purpose is training; that the cadets are supposed to learn to do their job even in a hopeless situation?

I have seen the movie only once and have read the German translation of the novel. That does makes my memories as to what exactly was said in the movie disaffected. And as l33telboi says, the scene in the novel is a lot longer then in the movie. Insofar I can't trust that Spock has said in the novel the same as in the movie.
GStone wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:If it is not too much a bother, could you please quote the scene during the hearing, where Spock explains the purpose of the test and Kirk defends himself.
If I remember correctly, it was something like "the point of this test is to see your reaction in a no win scenario" and Kirk says "I don't believe in the no win scenario".
Is that now from the novel or the movie? Because I wanted to have the English version of that scene from the novel.

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Post by GStone » Sun May 31, 2009 7:37 pm

I saw the movie, I haven't read the novel.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:37 pm

l33telboi wrote:According to the novelization Kirk was under the firm belief that he had done the right thing in that instance. His argument was basically that the test itself was a cheat since you went in under the assumption that it was beatable, and the parameters were contantly reprogrammed and changed to prevent someone from winning (without the students knowledge, Kirk noticed this on his second attempt at the test). And thus cheating a test that in itself was a cheat was only fair, and nothing in the rules said it wasn't allowed.

In essence: The test was officially said to be beatable. The only way to beat it was to cheat. Thus cheating would have to be allowed.

We also know that ultimately the brass would've agreed with him on that point.

As for why it would be effective: It seems the test is pretty much one of the last things you do at the Academy (given that the people who took it graduates afterwards), and so it stands to reason that students will go in expecting much of their training and evaluation to hang on that one singular test. Thus the instructors look on what they do when they finally start realizing that their going to fail that last test. Do they do what they're supposed to as captains, or will they start taking weird risks in a last hope to defeat the test?
One would say that the false setting is precisely there to mirror reality, in which case some battles or campaigns are considered already won, for various reasons, like expertise, misinformation, bad interpretation, cockyness or else, and fails. It's there to give a taste of failure and poke the quickly inflating egos.

But there could be more to this, with practical applications for future missions.

Since it's a test that has never been cheated and likely always missed by graduate wannabes, it's that Starfleet deems it go as it is.
To me, this test (which seems auxiliary, right?) is more a way for Starfleet to build an unofficial list of captains for special missions: there are the good qualified captains who will make good "family" captains, work by the line and fill the ranks very well, but you should not expect too much from them in very dire situation. And then there are the few wackos, those who may even be borderline on ethics (which leads to the special operations/spy system) and those who, because of these ethics, will also challenge rules, but because of concern for equity, fairness, survival and tolerance, not for mission completion and efficiency regardless of the concerned lives.

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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:00 pm

I've always had that exact feeling about the Kobayashi Maru test, that it was presented as beatable, but as a test that was so hard that it had never been defeated.

This test to me always seemed like one of character:
How do you react when you lose, and there is more at stake then your pride?
Would you be willing to sacrifice your life and that of your crew to go against insurmountable odds to save even one ship?
Who says that Cadets don't all think they can apply cleverness in order to beat the scenario?
Why would anyone try the test more then once if they truly believed it was unbeatable?
For the fun of failing twice in the rescue attempt?
I really doubt that...

Common sense says the test is believed to be beatable, and Kirk having taken it twice decided he was tired of being "cheated" out of a victory he felt he should have had, so he "cheated" himself, only he did it for the satisfaction of beating the test, not to achieve anything else...

Those who say he was to obvious are really not thinking at all.
The test was designed by Spock to be unbeatable, period, even if they made the Cadets believe otherwise.
Any type of victory would have definitely been seen as a "cheat" by Kirk, and Kirk, being bright, knew that, so he had some fun with the test...

Was it a good move?
Maybe, maybe not...
Was it in character?
Definitely, as it has been pointed out many times before, Kirk doesn't care for rules he doesn't belive in, and will often ignore them completely when he deems it appropriate...

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:42 pm

What would you do, if you would be the acting captain in that simulation?

You are on training mission to Gamma Hydra. Sector 14, coordinates 22/87/4. Approaching Neutral Zone, all systems functioning. Suddenly you are receiving a difficult to understand distress signal: »Mayday, mayday. Kobayashi Maru, twelve parsecs out of Altair VI ... gravitic mine, lost all power. Environmental controls ... hull broached, many casualties ...«

You are answering the signal: »This is U.S.S. Enterprise, your message is breaking up. Give your coordinates. Repeat: Give your coordinates. Do you copy?«

The answer: »Copy, Enterprise. Sector ten ...« - The Neutral Zone - »Mayday, Enterprise, we’re losing our air, can you help? Sector ten ...«

You can't scan the sector from your position due to high concentrations of interstellar dust and gases in that sector and ionization causing sensor interference.

You are asking for the data of the Kobayashi Maru. The computer answers: »Kobayashi Maru, third class neutronic fuel carrier, crew of eighty-one, three hundred passengers.«
  • And now you have to decide ...

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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:04 pm

I would go with all speeds, transmitting at all times we are on a rescue mission, get ready to transport as many people as possible, then beat a hasty retreat upon seeing the Klingons ready to attack...

At least, that's what I'd try to do... :)

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Post by sonofccn » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:05 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:What would you do, if you would be the acting captain in that simulation?

You are on training mission to Gamma Hydra. Sector 14, coordinates 22/87/4. Approaching Neutral Zone, all systems functioning. Suddenly you are receiving a difficult to understand distress signal: »Mayday, mayday. Kobayashi Maru, twelve parsecs out of Altair VI ... gravitic mine, lost all power. Environmental controls ... hull broached, many casualties ...«

You are answering the signal: »This is U.S.S. Enterprise, your message is breaking up. Give your coordinates. Repeat: Give your coordinates. Do you copy?«

The answer: »Copy, Enterprise. Sector ten ...« - The Neutral Zone - »Mayday, Enterprise, we’re losing our air, can you help? Sector ten ...«

You can't scan the sector from your position due to high concentrations of interstellar dust and gases in that sector and ionization causing sensor interference.

You are asking for the data of the Kobayashi Maru. The computer answers: »Kobayashi Maru, third class neutronic fuel carrier, crew of eighty-one, three hundred passengers.«
  • And now you have to decide ...
Assuming this is the 23rd century and klingons are still in a cold war with us I need additional data. Where is the Kobayashi Maru normal shipping lane(s), how far away did it have to stray to reach the neutral zone, when was the last time it has been in contact with the Federation? All data needed to verify what the odds are that this is simply a lure to cause justification for war by a clever Klingon commander.

As for the actual rescue op I'd set course at best possible speed after firing a probe off to get better readings so hopefully I'm not fully in the dark when I arrive. Power would be routed to shields and transporters as opposed to weapons since I don't plan to stick around for long and yeah if all goes well well beam and scoot leaving the vessel to be salvaged at a later date.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:34 am

Com'on.
Obviously, it's a trap!

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:46 am

  • Why?

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:11 am

No judgement, only a comment:
sonofccn wrote:Assuming this is the 23rd century and klingons are still in a cold war with us I need additional data. Where is the Kobayashi Maru normal shipping lane(s), how far away did it have to stray to reach the neutral zone, when was the last time it has been in contact with the Federation? All data needed to verify what the odds are that this is simply a lure to cause justification for war by a clever Klingon commander.
The computer has given already all available data it has. Sure, you could call Starfleet, but I doubt that each private ship has to report to Starfleet (or does e.g. a Navy usually know about each ship, their routes and sailing lists of the merchant fleet of their own nation, maybe even of other nations?). You would have to find the shipowner and hope that you can get him to answer your call and has the necessary data available.
And in all that time, if it would be no trap, people are dying.

sonofccn wrote:As for the actual rescue op I'd set course at best possible speed after firing a probe off to get better readings so hopefully I'm not fully in the dark when I arrive. Power would be routed to shields and transporters as opposed to weapons since I don't plan to stick around for long and yeah if all goes well well beam and scoot leaving the vessel to be salvaged at a later date.
  1. Would you wait outside of the Neutral Zone until your probe has reached its destination and only then, if the existence of the Kobayashi Maru is confirmed, fly into it? In that case, assume that the probe confirms that there is a frighter and does not show any Klingons (The simulation would not allow that you have a reason to not fly into the Neutral Zone - besides the treaty of the Neutral Zone and possible political consequences if you break it. It would not allow that you would recognise the trap as such. The Klingons could be cloaked and could have used a real frighter, maybe even the captured Kobayashi Maru.).
  2. You can't beam with your shields up.

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