Are Trekkies ashamed of a Federation with no commerce?

[Mike DiCenso]

In any case, it is silly for Trek fans to attempt to defend against the communist claim by seeking traces of commerce, e.g. Scotty buying a boat. But seeking traces of capitalism is at least a quasi-valid defense against a communism claim. However, it is better and wiser to argue toward post-scarcity economic models.

Well, yes. The appropriate counter-argument is intially to show examples of private enterprise because the typical Warsie nonsense is to claim that the Federation has none, and it's all controlled in Communistic/Socialistic fashion.

The next step is then to deal with post-scarcity models as you say.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Wow. Holo-slaves? Kinky thoughts aside, are they smart slaves? Are they conscious?
Couldn't it be done with more primitive machines?
Or is the equivalent of a very specialized holo-droid?

They where a bunch of EMH's given picks and put in a dilithium mine. They were certainly aware enough of what they where and what was going on to pass the word around about the Doctor's holo-novel.

But in the same episode ("Author, Author"), the Doc's holo-novel was legally recognised as his. And the issue of holographic AI's rights is summed up well by the Arbitartor hearing his case:

"We're exploring new territory today so it is fitting that this hearing is being held at Pathfinder. The Doctor exhibits many of the traits we associate with a person. Intelligence, creativity, ambition, even fallibility, but are these traits real or is the Doctor merely programmed to simulate them? To be honest, I don't know. Eventually we will have to decide because the issue of holographic rights isn't going to go away, but at this time, I am not prepared to rule that the Doctor is a person under the law. However, it is obvious he is no ordinary hologram and while I can't say with certainty that he is a person I am willing to extend the legal definition of artist to include the Doctor. I therefore rule that he has the right to control his work and I'm ordering all copies of his holo-novels to be recalled immediately."

So while the Federation may make the occasional mistake, they do deal with the issues, not sweep them under the carpet. Unlike in say, the Galactic Empire and the former Republic, where for at least a thousand years, if not many millennia, droids are treated as non-persons, dispite their often clear sentience, and whom suffer the ultimate crime of having any self-awareness that they develop destroyed with the occasional memory wipes. Artoo and Threepio are lucky in that they happen to have masters that treat them as people and not things.

So in other words, a barter system. Which goes along with what we saw Jake go through to get a baseball card for his father or O'Brien trying to a phaser coil or whatever it was he wanted.

I don't see that as proof of any overall barter system since that sort of thing still goes on all the time in societies with currencies.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

They where a bunch of EMH's given picks and put in a dilithium mine. They were certainly aware enough of what they where and what was going on to pass the word around about the Doctor's holo-novel.

The episode name? The only holo-slaves I remember were the ones found by the Hirigen(sp?) sentient holograms. The holograms were A) not federation
B) dumb as a bag of rocks.

Now I admit I could be remembering the wrong episode but that is the only one I recall with holo miners.

Aside from the question of did we actually see a true communist experience, or just a hoaxed ultra-capitalist venture with a red flag wrapped around, it's up in the air.

At the risk of extending this way beyond a Trek/Wars thread I would answer thusly:
A) It would not be "true" per the strict defination of say WILGA because they obvious did not meet all the steps proscribed by marx.
B) It would be "true" as this is the only result that can occure with human's involved. One way or another any attempt would find it's self where the Soviets did. The only question is time scale.

Now to the second part of your question, and this is just my personel opinion, Comunism, nazism and all the other little ideological isms have much more in common with federualism. All to one extent or another tried to create two classes, the rulers and the masses to serve the ruler. I would agree that under these institutions capitalism exist to one extent or another and obviously adapted to it's enviroment but not to the extent to the dominate ideology.

So to recap I agree it could be said the soviets were/were not communist or were/were not capitalists depending upon how strict a standard you apply which means I agree/disagree with you if I made any sense what so ever. :)

I view them more as socialist myself, though I've noticed that a great many people seem to have a problem distinguishing the two.

I would agree with you assesment. The UFP has at least socialist leanings. I do not like that persay through I obviously am not ashamed of liking Trek. The show is left-center but we all knew that going in.

[Cocytus]

They where a bunch of EMH's given picks and put in a dilithium mine. They were certainly aware enough of what they where and what was going on to pass the word around about the Doctor's holo-novel.

The episode name? The only holo-slaves I remember were the ones found by the Hirigen(sp?) sentient holograms. The holograms were A) not federation
B) dumb as a bag of rocks.

Now I admit I could be remembering the wrong episode but that is the only one I recall with holo miners.

"Author, Author", as Mike stated above. The holo miners you remember were from "Flesh and Blood," from some unnamed mining ship the fanatic Iden destroyed to "liberate" them. The original 675 EMHs (as per "Life Line") had been relegated to such things as dilithium mining and manning waste transfer barges. And they were indeed conscious enough for one to suggest to another that he ask the operator to run program 47-beta. It's called Photons be Free. It's quite provocative.

[The Corporal]

The episode name? The only holo-slaves I remember were the ones found by the Hirigen(sp?) sentient holograms. The holograms were A) not federation
B) dumb as a bag of rocks.

Now I admit I could be remembering the wrong episode but that is the only one I recall with holo miners.

It's Author, Author as Mike mentions above. Just before the end of the episode it was implied that the issue of "holo-rights" would at least be looked at in the future.

I would agree with you assesment. The UFP has at least socialist leanings. I do not like that persay through I obviously am not ashamed of liking Trek. The show is left-center but we all knew that going in.

I don't have a problem with it, living in a rather socialist country myself, still I enjoy fiction like WH40K but I'm not campaigning for a theocratic dictatorship.

I don't see that as proof of any overall barter system since that sort of thing still goes on all the time in societies with currencies.

I was more trying to make sense out of Mr. O's statements, as they were mostly gibberish to me. Like we've noted before, there is obviously some sort of currency and trade in the Federation.

[sonofccn]

They where a bunch of EMH's given picks and put in a dilithium mine. They were certainly aware enough of what they where and what was going on to pass the word around about the Doctor's holo-novel.

The episode name? The only holo-slaves I remember were the ones found by the Hirigen(sp?) sentient holograms. The holograms were A) not federation
B) dumb as a bag of rocks.

Now I admit I could be remembering the wrong episode but that is the only one I recall with holo miners.

"Author, Author", as Mike stated above. The holo miners you remember were from "Flesh and Blood," from some unnamed mining ship the fanatic Iden destroyed to "liberate" them. The original 675 EMHs (as per "Life Line") had been relegated to such things as dilithium mining and manning waste transfer barges. And they were indeed conscious enough for one to suggest to another that he ask the operator to run program 47-beta. It's called Photons be Free. It's quite provocative.

I stand corrected then. So sorry.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So to recap I agree it could be said the soviets were/were not communist or were/were not capitalists depending upon how strict a standard you apply which means I agree/disagree with you if I made any sense what so ever. :)

I think I... know/don't know. :)
What I know for sure is that I plan to go through Marx' (and some of Engel's) major writings, if possibly at least in a condensed form, from the former ones to the different later ones Marx put out.
That in conjunction with books about the mechanics of the financial system, notably as honoured in current capitalism.
Truth being said, I think ALL systems have something good in them, but globally, NONE have been given a true chance. Even capitalism, which would basically rely on the capitalized money people own, has failed and has centralized too much money within too few hands, which kills equity, progress, innovation and most industries, and has resulted into an ultra-darwinist system where there is no true balance against large trusts. Of course, this implies regulations, and that's where I suppose some count on the state's oversight, notably for fair spread of wealth (more to do with socialism), or self regulation through organisations, syndicates and else, which would be more about the liberal side of things. For the moment, I consider either systems can be good, but I also think they're both as fragile as the other.
Truth is, it's all about balance, and nothing has been balanced since aeons.

Trek is an interesting take on it. It doesn't choke trade, but assures that anyone can live in a decent habitat, have access to numerous resources, never been in need, benefit from the highest and finest medicines, and this anywhere on any planet (well, in theory).

That, if you remove the necessary war plots that sell DVDs.

[Mith]

It seems, to me, that as a response to a constant criticism, notably from Warsies, Trekkies have attempted their best to find proof of commerce within the Federation and took pride in it.

But is it that bad to have an advanced Federation free of any form of commerce, where when you need something, you have it easily because it can produced with cheap and clean energy, and likely provided thanks to synthetizers?

Why the shame, really?

I've never actually known about people being ashamed of that aspect of Star Trek. The only thing I ever heard about it is the strange point on how they don't supposably need money or care about material things, yet they clearly still use money in some cases and in others don't.

It's probably just a point (can't remember where I read this, probably G2k's site or the Daystrom Institute) that the UFP government provides everyone with a home and a replicator at the very least. As far as we've seen, land isn't a problem, since they have a ton of planets and terraforming abilities (even without Genesis). I think of it less as communisim, so much as it's just something that anyone would do. If the government could give you machines that can replicate food, most objects ever made, and clothing don't you think that they would? Especially if they've mastered matter-antimatter production to the point of bowling balls being able to store enough energy to blast off half the atmosphere off a planet or starships being able to generate more power in seconds than 21st century earth?

No, it seems to me that for the most part, the people within the Federation don't need money to survive of even have the basic things of life, but they probably can earn credit or some equal for doing things that a replicator can't. For example, working in Starfleet means that you defend the Federation from external threats and assist in research that enriches the lives of the UFP. As a reward for this task, you are given money. Another example might be say, Sisko's father, who runs his own shop. He might charge money for his food (he might not, he may just love to cook) because a replicator can't perfectly match his food. Same with hand made outfits and the like. All the basic things of life are taken care of, but by getting money, you can buy services that you can't get with a replicator. So really, it's just a matter of money being a luxury thing, where as in the real world, it can both be used for nessicary things as well as things that aren't quit so much.

[PunkMaister]

As far as I understand even socialist states have commerce and trade even if it is under a strictly government controlled fashion. One could argue there is no competition thus no incentive to make a product better etc. But not that there is no trade of any kind whatsoever that doesn't make any sense. And also as far as I understand the federation was not always the socialist/Marxist government it boasts by TNG era. In TOS it was clearly a capitalist/democratic society.

[Mike DiCenso]

And also as far as I understand the federation was not always the socialist/Marxist government it boasts by TNG era. In TOS it was clearly a capitalist/democratic society.

Except that even in the TNG-era, as has been pointed out via many examples, is not socialist/Marxist, and from what we hear in DS9's "In the Cards", only humans generally go without money.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

And also as far as I understand the federation was not always the socialist/Marxist government it boasts by TNG era. In TOS it was clearly a capitalist/democratic society.

Except that even in the TNG-era, as has been pointed out via many examples, is not socialist/Marxist, and from what we hear in DS9's "In the Cards", only humans generally go without money.
-Mike

Well not a Soviet Style state but there is no question that the the TNG era UFP is by far and large a socialist state and not a capitalist one, and DS9 is a poor example given the fact that is free port space station where aliens from just about every nearby quadrant and the gamma quadrant co-mingle in a Babylon 5 kind of atmosphere.

[Tyralak]

It seems, to me, that as a response to a constant criticism, notably from Warsies, Trekkies have attempted their best to find proof of commerce within the Federation and took pride in it.

But is it that bad to have an advanced Federation free of any form of commerce, where when you need something, you have it easily because it can produced with cheap and clean energy, and likely provided thanks to synthetizers?

Why the shame, really?

Some of us who are die hard capitalists, find the idea of a society with no system of commerce to be harder to swallow than the idea of transporters and Klingons. I also find myself cringing at the Federation's pansy-ass UN type nature. (At least TNG and later versions)

[PunkMaister]

Some of us who are die hard capitalists, find the idea of a society with no system of commerce to be harder to swallow than the idea of transporters and Klingons. I also find myself cringing at the Federation's pansy-ass UN type nature. (At least TNG and later versions)

Amen to all that!

[Tyralak]

Obviously it wasn't a true communist society, seeing as they had governments, police, money etc. It was more a dictatorship with the trappings of communism. Much like modern China is a capitalist country with communist in the title.

No, China has gone from a communist society to a fascist society. It's isn't capitalist in the true sense of the word. They're a Corporatist fascist state. Capitalism requires a free market in order to qualify as capitalism. Corporatism doesn't. A corporatist, (or fascist) state requires a symbiotic relationship between an authoritarian government and very large corporations. The government gives the corporations autonomy in exchange for conducting business in a way to further the goals of the State. The State then makes laws which benefit the corporations, regardless of how beneficial they are to the public.

There's a good article on Corporatism here. http://lpuk.blogspot.com/2008/08/libert ... arian.html

[PunkMaister]

No, China has gone from a communist society to a fascist society. It's isn't capitalist in the true sense of the word. They're a Corporatist fascist state. Capitalism requires a free market in order to qualify as capitalism. Corporatism doesn't. A corporatist, (or fascist) state requires a symbiotic relationship between an authoritarian government and very large corporations. The government gives the corporations autonomy in exchange for conducting business in a way to further the goals of the State. The State then makes laws which benefit the corporations, regardless of how beneficial they are to the public.

There's a good article on Corporatism here. http://lpuk.blogspot.com/2008/08/libert ... arian.html

Interesting article and nice piece of info and all true!