Sovereign vs 1 Star Destroyer?

[l33telboi]

The incident with the anti-matter that could blow off the atmosphere of a planet was not an issue of more energy per mass. It was an issue of Spock talking about voulme rather then mass when he said ounce.

[Cocytus]

Compressing mass X still leaves you with mass X, no matter if it's building sized or eye sized.
TOS uber antimatter is extremely disputable. Mostly embarassing nonsense scientifically wise.
Not only that funky antimatter was mentionned a few times, but such references are the result of TOS, mainly. If it was so easily present (considering that the Enterprise crew in those TOS episodes didn't struggle to obtain that uber AM), it makes zero sense that this AM would be lost all of sudden.

Yes, compressing X mass still gives you X mass as long as the space requirements change with the mass (from building sized to eye sized, say) But if we're considering storage volume here, i.e. the antimatter storage tanks, which have a fixed volume regardless of whether they are full or empty, then with more mass per unit of volume for the antimatter, the tanks would contain more power over all. Spock says "an ounce should be sufficient." An ounce can be a unit of mass or volume, and the latter makes far more sense, since an ounce of standard antimatter could not account for the blast's described effect of stripping off half the planet's atmosphere, not the massive crater we see in the remastered version of the episode.

Here's an interesting parallel. The Empire State Building weighs 365,000 tons. If all the void space (including atomic void space) were to be compressed out of it, it would still weigh 365,000 tons, but it would be the size of a sewing needle. But if a volume equal to that of the Empire State Building were filled with 365,000-ton sewing needles...

You said "more power per kilogram"... the 43 MT figure is an absolute theoretical one, you can't get above.

Yes, I did. My apologies. I wasn't thinking.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The incident with the anti-matter that could blow off the atmosphere of a planet was not an issue of more energy per mass. It was an issue of Spock talking about voulme rather then mass when he said ounce.

Of course, where has this uber AM gone then?
He obviously didn't have to look far to get it in that episode, iirc.

OK, honestly, who really buys that uber AM thing?

There's a probably a good number of Trekkies secretly hoping to find the all unifying theory, but who thinks it's reasonable?

[Mith]

The incident with the anti-matter that could blow off the atmosphere of a planet was not an issue of more energy per mass. It was an issue of Spock talking about voulme rather then mass when he said ounce.

Of course, where has this uber AM gone then?
He obviously didn't have to look far to get it in that episode, iirc.

OK, honestly, who really buys that uber AM thing?

There's a probably a good number of Trekkies secretly hoping to find the all unifying theory, but who thinks it's reasonable?

I think rather they found out a way to stuff a truck load of antimatter into that small sphere, with Spock's measurments not per say being correct, or at least in the manner we deem so. When Spock mentioned they could get it from their engines, I suspect they actually took an antimatter pod, which contains that antimatter until it's released. I note that it looks somewhat similar to what Wesley Crusher had in TNG (although different color and apparently much lighter), which we saw he and Geordi hook the antimatter container up to the warpcore of an old Constitution class ship, and said thing had enough power to push their ship into warp for a relatively short time.

[Cocytus]

I think it works just fine, Oragahn. As I said before, Spock could have meant an ounce as a unit of volume. And the greater density antimatter, which gives more power per unit of volume, which is what I should have said in the first post you cited above, explains a lot of odd occurrences in TNG. I can't remember exactly where, but RSA was discussing the rate of flow of normal antimatter required to sustain the 12.75 exawatt figure from "True-Q" and the flow rate he came up with would suggest that starships need to refuel every couple days. Since its probably a couple day trip or more from starbase to starbase, it's a wonder starships on the frontier don't routinely run out of gas.

Wesley's antimatter sphere in "Peak Performance" is expected to give the Hathaway warp one for a mere two seconds. Wesley doesn't visibly struggle with the sphere, so it can't be all that heavy, maybe ten pounds (4.5 kg) 4.5 kg would give a total contained energy of 193.5 megatons. What I really need is a mass figure for the Constellation class.

[Mith]

I think it works just fine, Oragahn. As I said before, Spock could have meant an ounce as a unit of volume. And the greater density antimatter, which gives more power per unit of volume, which is what I should have said in the first post you cited above, explains a lot of odd occurrences in TNG. I can't remember exactly where, but RSA was discussing the rate of flow of normal antimatter required to sustain the 12.75 exawatt figure from "True-Q" and the flow rate he came up with would suggest that starships need to refuel every couple days. Since its probably a couple day trip or more from starbase to starbase, it's a wonder starships on the frontier don't routinely run out of gas.

Wesley's antimatter sphere in "Peak Performance" is expected to give the Hathaway warp one for a mere two seconds. Wesley doesn't visibly struggle with the sphere, so it can't be all that heavy, maybe ten pounds (4.5 kg) 4.5 kg would give a total contained energy of 193.5 megatons. What I really need is a mass figure for the Constellation class.

The Daystrom Institute suggests 325,000 metric tons.

EDIT: Who the hell let's a 17 year old kid carry around a 200 megaton nuke?Oo

[Cocytus]

Ahh, Wesley. That makes how many times he's almost destroyed the ship?

All right, since I'm having trouble figuring out a formula for power in terms of mass and velocity and acceleration, since Hathaway's V nought is zero (insofar as any velocity in space can be zero) I thought I'd just look for power consumption figures for warp factors. I found some on DITL, all right, in the Galaxy Class Total Output article. They suggest that a Galaxy class can maintain warp one on 200 megawatts. Going on Graham Kennedy's calcs, 3.25E5/5E6=.065x2E8=13E6 watts, or 13 megawatts for a Constellation to maintain warp one, or 26 megajoules consumed for the whole two-second trip. Given that a megaton is 4.184 PETAjoules, by these figures Wesley's antimatter could have powered the Hathaway at warp one for two thousand years! Highly suspect. DITL got those figures from the TNG Tech Manual, which also suggest that the total power output of the Galaxy's phasers is 1.02 gigawatts. Again, clearly false.

[Mith]

Ahh, Wesley. That makes how many times he's almost destroyed the ship?

Well, he's endangered the crew and the ship a few times if I recall. There was the incident with the girl who could turn into a wookie, trapping his mother in a shrinking dimension, the nanobot experiment, performing treason by warning the dumbass indian locals (we want to stay on our planet, despite the fact that the Cardassian government is taking over!), took part in a forbidden fighter manuver that killed his friend, and I'm sure there were a few others.

All right, since I'm having trouble figuring out a formula for power in terms of mass and velocity and acceleration, since Hathaway's V nought is zero (insofar as any velocity in space can be zero) I thought I'd just look for power consumption figures for warp factors. I found some on DITL, all right, in the Galaxy Class Total Output article. They suggest that a Galaxy class can maintain warp one on 200 megawatts. Going on Graham Kennedy's calcs, 3.25E5/5E6=.065x2E8=13E6 watts, or 13 megawatts for a Constellation to maintain warp one, or 26 megajoules consumed for the whole two-second trip. Given that a megaton is 4.184 PETAjoules, by these figures Wesley's antimatter could have powered the Hathaway at warp one for two thousand years! Highly suspect. DITL got those figures from the TNG Tech Manual, which also suggest that the total power output of the Galaxy's phasers is 1.02 gigawatts. Again, clearly false.

That much is true. However, if it takes nearly 200 megatons worth of explosives just to push the Hathaway into Warp 1, I can only imagine the amount of antimatter it takes to push a Constellation class into Warp 8. Frankly, that incident in Obsession is starting to make sense if something about half the mass takes almost 200 megatons to keep her in warp for two seconds.

Also, Star Trek Intelligence places the mass at 600,000 metric tons.

So I'd say 300,000 to 600,000 metric tons is a resonable estimation for a lower and higher figure.

Either way, assuming that the Constellation could make a six day trip, that would mean...

1 second of warp one = 96.75 megatons worth of antimatter
(60 x 60 x 24 x 6) 518,400 x 96.75 megatons = 50,155,200 megatons (or 50.1552 terratons) over a six day trip at Warp 1. Wasn't there an episode where they actually channeled all that energy at a Borg cube?Oo

I can't imagine the power it takes to send the Enterprise D into warp 9.

[l33telboi]

Of course, where has this uber AM gone then?
He obviously didn't have to look far to get it in that episode, iirc.

Perhaps nowhere. It's not a matter of über-antimatter, there nothing strange about the AM itself. It's how it's stored that's interesting.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The incident with the anti-matter that could blow off the atmosphere of a planet was not an issue of more energy per mass. It was an issue of Spock talking about voulme rather then mass when he said ounce.

Of course, where has this uber AM gone then?
He obviously didn't have to look far to get it in that episode, iirc.

OK, honestly, who really buys that uber AM thing?

There's a probably a good number of Trekkies secretly hoping to find the all unifying theory, but who thinks it's reasonable?

I think rather they found out a way to stuff a truck load of antimatter into that small sphere, with Spock's measurments not per say being correct, or at least in the manner we deem so. When Spock mentioned they could get it from their engines, I suspect they actually took an antimatter pod, which contains that antimatter until it's released. I note that it looks somewhat similar to what Wesley Crusher had in TNG (although different color and apparently much lighter), which we saw he and Geordi hook the antimatter container up to the warpcore of an old Constitution class ship, and said thing had enough power to push their ship into warp for a relatively short time.

There's no doubt they can compress it relatively well, but compressed to the point where the UFP can easily go away with an ounce (volume) ripping off half of a planet's atmosphere, that's absurd.
This is inconsistent with what's been shown in the rest of Trek.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I would put the Constellation a bit higher in mass, seeing as the Constitution is a near contemporary that is (a) a million tons, canonically and (b) smaller. ST-v-SW.net actually puts it the same volume as the Intrepid, which we know is 700,000 tons.

[Mith]

Of course, where has this uber AM gone then?
He obviously didn't have to look far to get it in that episode, iirc.

OK, honestly, who really buys that uber AM thing?

There's a probably a good number of Trekkies secretly hoping to find the all unifying theory, but who thinks it's reasonable?

I think rather they found out a way to stuff a truck load of antimatter into that small sphere, with Spock's measurments not per say being correct, or at least in the manner we deem so. When Spock mentioned they could get it from their engines, I suspect they actually took an antimatter pod, which contains that antimatter until it's released. I note that it looks somewhat similar to what Wesley Crusher had in TNG (although different color and apparently much lighter), which we saw he and Geordi hook the antimatter container up to the warpcore of an old Constitution class ship, and said thing had enough power to push their ship into warp for a relatively short time.

There's no doubt they can compress it relatively well, but compressed to the point where the UFP can easily go away with an ounce (volume) ripping off half of a planet's atmosphere, that's absurd.
This is inconsistent with what's been shown in the rest of Trek.

Of course, but I take it that Spock was either incorrect, or he was using a different unit of measurment. But the fact is that blue ball needed an antigrave unit, and it did have enough antimatter to blow off half the atmosphere of a planet. So, I suggest they managed to pound all that stuff into the container itself, rather just what Spock claims.

Interestingly enough, if the Daystrom Institute is to believed on the yield of that bomb, it would have enough energy to supply 12 years worth of warp one to the Hathaway.

[l33telboi]

This is inconsistent with what's been shown in the rest of Trek.

I don't know of any inconsistencies myself. In regards to compression, that is.

[Cocytus]

Yet another case of visuals and character dialogue conflicting one another. Obviously, since the visuals show what DID happen, they should be taken to be correct. I do agree with Oragahn that this example is the highest example of power per unit volume that we've ever seen with regards to this compressed antimatter, and is inconsistent with some other examples of similar volumes, like torpedoes, producing "only" low gigaton range yields. ("Skin of Evil" and "Code of Honor" spring to mind) Perhaps Kirk ordered the sphere to be filled with more offscreen at some point, given his obsession and determination to kill the creature.

Well, he's endangered the crew and the ship a few times if I recall. There was the incident with the girl who could turn into a wookie, trapping his mother in a shrinking dimension, the nanobot experiment, performing treason by warning the dumbass indian locals (we want to stay on our planet, despite the fact that the Cardassian government is taking over!), took part in a forbidden fighter maneuver that killed his friend, and I'm sure there are others.

He stalled the Enterprise in the path of an oncoming star fragment in "The Naked Now," and I think you got everything else.

[Mr. Oragahn]

My point is that since it was so easy to cram that much AM into such a small volume, and get a yield which would be worth several petatons, obtaining teraton level torpedoes should be child's play.

OK, I think we need some solid info about that TOS episode, and also consider the visuals from the remastered version if you don't mind.

I got this:
-------
"Obsession" - Kirk finally lures the cloud-creature back to its home planet,
Tycho IV. To lure it, they bait it to the surface with human blood, then set
a charge of one-ounce of TOS uber-antimatter... the resulting explosion
tears the atmosphere of the planet off.
-------

Is there any transcript?

Besides, the fact that Lee could power some systems of an old ship for a limited time doesn't mean much.
We've seen that modified probe transport a Klingon chick at warp 9 or more for quite some time, and when you see the yields of torpedoes which are purposely built to blow up AM in the enemy's face, and when you look at the available volume, there's no way warp, even at level 9 or slightly above, can require tremendous amounts of power.