Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:02 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Anger? That's a *big* word. I'm more annoyed than anything else. :)
Annoyed by the kind of behaviour our friend is displaying here
It's still not worth being disrespectful over, IMO.
I'm going to tell you what's not worth it: wasting saliva dealing with a brick wall.
That said, I perfectly assume my behaviour, thank you, and it's now that I'm going to change the way I deal with Gandalfes.
Oh, btw, respect doesn't start where insults stop. There's a whole other batch of elements to consider when you're talking about respect and behaviour.

That said, have a nice day, and a nice argument with the wizard, Praeothmin-san.

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:10 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
And Gandalf, I have to agree that, although some of your points about not needing to be a military genious to be a good politician were, IMO, truly valid (as you demonstrated, no, as you proved with the George Bush example), most of your other rebuttals were simply repeating Ad Vitam Eternam that those points had already been debunked by so and so, without providing a shred of evidence.
It is correct, that a good politician have not to be a military genious.
Nobody can be good at all areas: family policy, social policy, environmental policy, economy policy, foreign policy, labour policy, safety policy, financial policy, defence policy, health policy, traffic policy , educational policy ...

That's why a good politician has to know its own limitations and consult more qualified people and delegate some tasks.



But the position of Gandalf is not a question about a military genious.

Even if Amidala is no military genious, she should know the magnitude of the shields of the trade ship and of the weapons on their fighters.
She lives in this universum. There is no reason to think something else. She doesn't have to know special technological specifications or exact figures.

For example, the most people on this Earth doesn't know a lot about the armor of a tank. But they have a roughly conception and nobody with commonsense would attack a tank with pieces of cotton wool. That would not be a question of military genious but absolute idiocy.

To attack the Trade Federation Ship with fighters would be the same absolute idiocy, if "thousands of fighters couldn't hope to match a single capitol ship".

But there is no indication, that Amidala is such an idiot.

For this, I have to assume, that an attack on the Trade Federation Ship had have a realisitic chance of succes.

But that is only possible, if the weapons on fighters are a real threat to the shields of capitol ships.

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Post by watchdog » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:09 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:For this, I have to assume, that an attack on the Trade Federation Ship had have a realisitic chance of succes.

But that is only possible, if the weapons on fighters are a real threat to the shields of capitol ships.
As Ive often mentioned, there are plenty of examples in various comics and novels (not to mention why even bother with fighters at all if they cant inflict some damage).

A couple of x-wing comics feature the tactic that I think is the best way for fighters to lay a smack-down on the cap ships, I have a picture from the final chapter of the book 'Manditory retirement' which shows the tactic;
Image
Another book (cant remember the name right now but I will) stated that the first (leading torpedos) strike would unbalance the shields long enough for the following torpedos to penetrate. How long the shields are down for is unknown, and Wedge himself notes that the fighters cant actually 'kill' the ISD but by the end of the story they had inflicted quite a bit of damage including knocking out artificial gravity.

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Post by watchdog » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:12 pm

Argh! I still cant get my images to post!

just try these two links, they go to the same pic;
http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u77/ ... orps01.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=torps01xx9.jpg

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:12 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
And Gandalf, I have to agree that, although some of your points about not needing to be a military genious to be a good politician were, IMO, truly valid (as you demonstrated, no, as you proved with the George Bush example), most of your other rebuttals were simply repeating Ad Vitam Eternam that those points had already been debunked by so and so, without providing a shred of evidence.
By the way: the "George Bush example" is nothing. George Bush is not a good politician. Why should one assume, that he could be a military genious.

To work, he would have to give an example with a good politican who is no military genious.

But nobody contradict that a good politician doesn't need to be a military genious.

Even such an example would be useless.

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:17 pm

Knocking main power off-line, or destroying the main bridge will severely diminish the ISD's combat effectiveness, essentially crippling it.

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:29 pm

watchdog wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:For this, I have to assume, that an attack on the Trade Federation Ship had have a realisitic chance of succes.

But that is only possible, if the weapons on fighters are a real threat to the shields of capitol ships.
As Ive often mentioned, there are plenty of examples in various comics and novels (not to mention why even bother with fighters at all if they cant inflict some damage).

A couple of x-wing comics feature the tactic that I think is the best way for fighters to lay a smack-down on the cap ships, I have a picture from the final chapter of the book 'Manditory retirement' which shows the tactic;
Image
Another book (cant remember the name right now but I will) stated that the first (leading torpedos) strike would unbalance the shields long enough for the following torpedos to penetrate. How long the shields are down for is unknown, and Wedge himself notes that the fighters cant actually 'kill' the ISD but by the end of the story they had inflicted quite a bit of damage including knocking out artificial gravity.
Yes, but the question was for me, what the movies are showing.

The comics and books are only secondary canon and must be compatible with the movies.

And every book (EU or ICS) which contradict the movies are overridden and therefore meritless - at least in this parts.

Than all conclusions, which are basing on this overridden literature are meritless too.

Therefore each analysis has to start at the movies and not at secondary literature.

In this case, The Phantom Menace shows, that a few fighter have a realisitical chance to damage or destroy a capitol ship unless one assumes, that Amidala and all others are complete full-blown jerks.

But for the latter, there is no indication.

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Post by Kazeite » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:05 pm

Well, she married Anakin ;)

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:28 pm

Kazeite wrote:Well, she married Anakin ;)
Love is always exceptional circumstances.

Who doesn't do stupid things, when one is in love?

But in The Phantom Menace, she was not in love with Anakin yet.

:)

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Post by watchdog » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:23 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:Yes, but the question was for me, what the movies are showing.

The comics and books are only secondary canon and must be compatible with the movies.

And every book (EU or ICS) which contradict the movies are overridden and therefore meritless - at least in this parts.

Than all conclusions, which are basing on this overridden literature are meritless too.

Therefore each analysis has to start at the movies and not at secondary literature.

In this case, The Phantom Menace shows, that a few fighter have a realisitical chance to damage or destroy a capitol ship unless one assumes, that Amidala and all others are complete full-blown jerks.

But for the latter, there is no indication.
Well, I did mention way earlier in this thread how a pair of A-wing fighters launch an attack on the shield generator dome, it is the scene that immedeatly follows Admiral Ackbar ordering all fire concentrated on the SSD. The first several shots they fire don't look like standard laser bolts, but the very last shot fired did appear to be a torpedo.
Its not perfect but there it is.

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:45 pm

By the way: the "George Bush example" is nothing. George Bush is not a good politician. Why should one assume, that he could be a military genious.
The Goerge Bush example is him giving us an example of what he means.
And to me, a man who isn't too bright that succeeds in getting elected as President of the United States for two terms is a darn good politician if you ask me... :)

He may not be a good military leader, but he is a good politician...

I only meant that in that specific case, he expanded on his arguments, by saying that George Bush isn't the brightest military leader (heck, I would've stopped at the "brightest"... :) ), but he still succeeded in conning the enough people to be elected twice in a row.
Once again, a very good politician... :)

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Post by Gandalf » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:57 pm

I'm going to take a break until tomorrow. Until then please accept my apologies for my crassness.

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Post by Dragoon » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:06 am

Gandalf wrote:I'm going to take a break until tomorrow. Until then please accept my apologies for my crassness.
No prob. You've got a lot of stuff to sift through.

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Post by SailorSaturn13 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:54 am



I have repeatadly pointed out that at no time do we see a TIE engage a capital ship.
At no time do we see a capital ship fire GT blasts, either.

Word evidence is enough.

Note:
1) By default, everything what characters say, is true.
2) The diproving must come from the same, or higher, canon.

So, unless You can find a movie-based proof that fighters are NOT dangerous for capital ships, they are.
And if it hadn't worked?
Then it wouldn't matter if they escaped. With complete DS
the Emperor could crush a resistance easily. The only point would be to try at another time, but this would be even more risky than this.

There are repeated scenes of rebel fighters making strafing runs on star destroyers in the RoTJ battle and doing damage.

Only when the shields are down.
So the shields on the Death Star 1 were down???
The ICS figures have already been shown to correspond with the movies by Mike Wong and Brian Young.
Well, then I take they have a movie-based proof of 200 GT HTLs ? I'd be eager to have it HERE, on this forum.

Especially given that an LTL is less then 10 times powerful than a Tie shot.
Look do you have any proof that she knows what she's doing or not?
She DOES know how to speak to people. Therefore, when she would give her pilots an order to fly and destroy the control ship, and the leader would start :
- But Your Majesty, fighters cannot possibly...
She WOULD NOT shout:
- Silence! You go there and fight, and it's your problem how you get it done! Now go and don't bother me with tech!
And because of this she would hear the objection and send other role to fightes.
Note that fighters could also be used differently, for example as air support (imagine: those big things bring the droids out and just then, a volley of PTs hits the droids - battle would run differently). Therefore trying to disable the Control ship was a possible, if risky thing.

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:39 am

So the shields on the Death Star 1 were down???
The first Death Star had shields?????? (really wants to know)
Where was that mentioned?

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