So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?

[Who is like God arbour]

Mr. Oragahn:

1. You have started to do calculations. I have show, where I think, your assumptions to your calculations are wrong. Now you demand, that I do the calculations. That's stupid. It's at you, to defend your calculations - not at me, to correct your mistakes.
   
   Besides, I hate mathe and will not do any calculations. If you say me, whith which values you have calculated and from where you are taking that values, it is enough for me. I would not check your calculation further - unless there is an obviously mistake.
2. You still assume, that the temperature has increased at once after the ignition. Fact is, that this is not, what was said.
   After the ignition, Geordi has said »Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing«
   Then Timicin has asked, »What about the heat and pressure levels«.
   And the answere to that question was not »Increase within predicted range« or »Increasing as needed« or »Continuous increasing« or »steady rise« but only »Steady so far« without anything in that sentence, that would allow the conclusion, that temperature and pressure were significantly rising.
   Especially because he has first enumerated the changing gamma radiation level and helium fusion rate, the sentence »Steady so far« creates a strong contrast. While some values have rised, the heat and pressure levels have not significantly increased.
   A significant increase was first perceivable, after the pressure wave harmonics have dispersed.
   
   If you interpret it differently. Ok. I won't try to convince you anymore.
   
   I understand the episode, as I have said and therefore am the opinion, that the torpedos could withstand a pressure of eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter and a temperature of approximate sixty million degrees Kelvin for a short time.
3. Your theory about »booby trapped torpedo shields« is a violation of Occamy razor. While we know, that torpedos have shields, we have no indications, that they are »booby trapped«. Alone a shield has never created a feedback through the phasers. That was always done by the crew while using other systems.
   
   And, if they wouldn't use phaser beams, but pule phasers or mini torpedos or drones or missiles or cannons similar to a phalanx, that wouldn't be a problem.
4. I have not asked you, »why they don't fire single purpose torpedoes against torpedoes«. I have given several options, how a torpedo interception system could be done. A mini torpedo would be a possibility as well as missiles, drones or cannons. There was no need, to arbitrarily take that specific option and nag at it.
   
   And excuse me, if I don't have realised, that you have already answered the question. I'm not able to see anything in your posts, that would be able to qualify as an answer in my opinion. But maybe I'm looking at the wrong places.
   
   If that is the case, please answere me again, why neither Starfleet nor the Romulan nor the Klingons nor the Cardassians have developed a torpedo interception system?
   
   Such a system doesn't has to be perfect. It only has to increase the chance to destroy an incoming torpedo. The phalanx for exapmle has not a high accuracy. Most of their shoots are missing. But it would be enough, if one shoot would hit. And even that is not guaranteed. But it is a better chance than if they wouldn't do nothing.
   
   Why not constructing anything similar?

[Roondar]

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I get that torpedoes are just too hard to hit in flight.

I'm still guessing it's a form of jamming/ECM going on, considering they have in fact shot down missiles that where 'lower tech' before. Super strong shields don't make much sense (besides, the Photon torpedoes that went into that star where modified ones, not your standard issue ones).

ECM makes a lot of sense, really. It neatly explains the issue without adding technobabble.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You have started to do calculations. I have show, where I think, your assumptions to your calculations are wrong. Now you demand, that I do the calculations. That's stupid. It's at you, to defend your calculations - not at me, to correct your mistakes.

No, what was too kind of me is that I engaged into calculations while you were making the claims.
This stops here.

Besides, I hate mathe and will not do any calculations. If you say me, whith which values you have calculated and from where you are taking that values, it is enough for me. I would not check your calculation further - unless there is an obviously mistake.

Well then what do you do? Make claims and hope we agree with you on hypothetical face value?
Ask someone to help, eventually.

You still assume, that the temperature has increased at once after the ignition. Fact is, that this is not, what was said.
After the ignition, Geordi has said »Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing«
Then Timicin has asked, »What about the heat and pressure levels«.
And the answere to that question was not »Increase within predicted range« or »Increasing as needed« or »Continuous increasing« or »steady rise« but only »Steady so far« without anything in that sentence, that would allow the conclusion, that temperature and pressure were significantly rising.

You're obviously wrong. Hello, there's a rise in nuclear activity, which ups the gamma radiations by 1700%. I don't know how it can be clearer. A rise in nuclear activity will, of course, release a lot more of energy, which in turn will increase temperature.
The process recreated a nuclear reaction in the core. Thusly, temperature rises.
Eventually, matter would try to expand, so density might loosen a tad.
I don't see how you with to spin the very meaning (and thereby consequences) of the word ignition.

Especially because he has first enumerated the changing gamma radiation level and helium fusion rate, the sentence »Steady so far« creates a strong contrast.

As I proved, steady does not mean stagnative. A climb can be steady you know.

Your theory about »booby trapped torpedo shields« is a violation of Occamy razor. While we know, that torpedos have shields, we have no indications, that they are »booby trapped«. Alone a shield has never created a feedback through the phasers. That was always done by the crew while using other systems.

It is not a violation of occam razor. I'd strongly advise you to revise your understanding of Occam's Razor.
My theory doesn't even rely on the rather absurd idea that the Federation would put godlike shields on torpedoes, but not on their ships.
It's even more absurd when you consider the energy outputs of warp cores and the size of such cores, in comparison to what a torpedo could reasonably cram between all the rest.

And, if they wouldn't use phaser beams, but pule phasers or mini torpedos or drones or missiles or cannons similar to a phalanx, that wouldn't be a problem.

No, you said that it wouldn't be a problem, but there's something obviously wrong if your claim about interception missiles as well. I largely highlighted the problems which could be caused by such interception projectiles, and there's no reason why such missiles or minitorps couldn't carry enough reactants to overcome the targeted torpedo in a flash explosion.

I have not asked you, »why they don't fire single purpose torpedoes against torpedoes«. I have given several options, how a torpedo interception system could be done. A mini torpedo would be a possibility as well as missiles, drones or cannons. There was no need, to arbitrarily take that specific option and nag at it.

I adressed likely outcomes of using interception missiles at torpedoes.
Note that I shouldn't be the one trying to explain why they're not used, unless you believe that not even a torpedo could destroy a torpedo, which is absurd. The defense torpedo wouldn't even require as much hardware as the enemy one, and wouldn't even require shields to boot.

Why doesn't Starfleet use more styles of weapons? Because they have thought for centuries that they should fly with jacks of all trades instead of having true warships to defend their borders and all that jazz, and instead enjoyed sending starships filled with families against the Borg and whatever.

Sorry, they're clearly not the best military you can think of. Asking them to think in optimum ways is a blasphemy from such a perspective. Moreso, phasers are extremely effective weapons. Their advanced design is good against most shields, and has extra effects against matter (bare a few problems with certain elements).

It's also very possible that mounting giant rifles on Starfleet ships would be seen as "primitive" for that bunch of stuck up pacifists dressing in fancy pyjamas. (just pushing you :P)

As for lasers... I thought those things were kinda limited, where apparently shields (even navigational deflectors) can, hem, deflect photons more easily than the nadion particles used in phasers.

And excuse me, if I don't have realised, that you have already answered the question. I'm not able to see anything in your posts, that would be able to qualify as an answer in my opinion. But maybe I'm looking at the wrong places.

If that is the case, please answere me again, why neither Starfleet nor the Romulan nor the Klingons nor the Cardassians have developed a torpedo interception system?

I'm afraid the answer was already given as far as I can think.

Now you may tell me why you think mine doesn't make sense, and why you think minitorps or missiles couldn't destroy torpedoes?

Such a system doesn't has to be perfect. It only has to increase the chance to destroy an incoming torpedo. The phalanx for exapmle has not a high accuracy. Most of their shoots are missing. But it would be enough, if one shoot would hit. And even that is not guaranteed. But it is a better chance than if they wouldn't do nothing.

Why not constructing anything similar?

Because Federation uses phasers, and as a whole seem to stick with that. As we can see, again, they're above all explorers, thinkers and scientists, and only few branches really know what a warship means, however it seems that these branches of Starfleet don't get enough money or political power to get what they may ask for.

If Starfleet wanted it, they could have come with a 1 km long dreadnaught equipped a gazillon of phaser banks, plasma cannons, torpedoe launchers, laser arrays, coil guns, you name it, and tough shields, most of the compact volume dedicated to weapons and defenses.

It took a hell of a time to see something such as the Defiant.
Even then, they had huge problems with the prototype (just what the hell?) and only produced something like 3 Defiant-class ships top.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I get that torpedoes are just too hard to hit in flight.

I'm still guessing it's a form of jamming/ECM going on, considering they have in fact shot down missiles that where 'lower tech' before. Super strong shields don't make much sense (besides, the Photon torpedoes that went into that star where modified ones, not your standard issue ones).

ECM makes a lot of sense, really. It neatly explains the issue without adding technobabble.

Indeed, but apparently ECM doesn't work everywhere.
A pity, because the schematic of the torpedo has that frontal dish, the nav deflector, which could also be used to send powerful jamming waves forward, towards the target.
It would be, obviously, a much more simple explanation.

[2046]

My theory doesn't even rely on the rather absurd idea that the Federation would put godlike shields on torpedoes, but not on their ships.

?

Are you somehow arguing against the extraordinary performance of torpedo shields in "Half a Life"?

[SailorSaturn13]

But my point has not changed. If small shield surfaced allowed such feats, it would just be a matter of using a patchwork of small shields, and you'd have supertough ships.
Unsurprisingly, it's not the case.

Otherwise you could stick a bunch of photon torpedoes to the hull of a shuttle and have it be practically invulnerable

You cannot. First because such a shield would burn out after a minute. (see below) Second, because torpedo shields are SPHERES, and CANNOT BE ANY OTHER SHAPE. Or they would be more hull-hugging. No planes, no half-spheres - only a sphere, and no matter can be at surface of such sphere let alone an object being half in and half out. Therefore anything that cannot fit into such sphere (which cannot be more than 10-15 m diameter) cannot have such shields.

more likely Worf was incorrect about the torpedo actually going anywhere near the core..

EVERYTHING characters say is to be considered true unless DIRECTLY contradicted by same or higher level canon.

[SailorSaturn13]

Assuming relatively same space is given to shield generators in both cases Voyager's shields will be 46 times stronger per unit of area than those of a photon torpedo.

Well this is plainly wrong. Most of the ship is filled with corridors, crew cabins, auxillary devices and so. Weapons fill less then 1% of ship's volume. It wouldn't be surprising that Voyager's shield generator takes less volume than the photon torpedo, thus being only 5-10 times more voluminous as the torp's shield generator.

[Who is like God arbour]

You still assume, that the temperature has increased at once after the ignition. Fact is, that this is not, what was said.
After the ignition, Geordi has said »Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing«
Then Timicin has asked, »What about the heat and pressure levels«.
And the answere to that question was not »Increase within predicted range« or »Increasing as needed« or »Continuous increasing« or »steady rise« but only »Steady so far« without anything in that sentence, that would allow the conclusion, that temperature and pressure were significantly rising.

You're obviously wrong. Hello, there's a rise in nuclear activity, which ups the gamma radiations by 1700%. I don't know how it can be clearer. A rise in nuclear activity will, of course, release a lot more of energy, which in turn will increase temperature.
The process recreated a nuclear reaction in the core. Thusly, temperature rises.
Eventually, matter would try to expand, so density might loosen a tad.
I don't see how you with to spin the very meaning (and thereby consequences) of the word ignition.

The core of a star is very very large. After the torpedos have exploded and have ignited the helium fusion, the fusion chain reaction first has to spread through the whole core. That needs a little time and doesn't happed at once. That's why the average pressure and temperature of the core could still be unimpaired. And indeed, the first increasing of the temperature, that was reported, was not the average temperature of the core, but only the increasing in zone 1.

But I end my participation in that debate now.

I'm not your opinion and I understand the episode differently than you. If you want, claim victory, do it. I don't care.

I'm not convinced from your opinion and you have said nothing, that could convince me. I'm sure, you could say the same. Insofar we can only agree, that we don't agree.

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I get that torpedoes are just too hard to hit in flight.

I'm still guessing it's a form of jamming/ECM going on, considering they have in fact shot down missiles that where 'lower tech' before. Super strong shields don't make much sense (besides, the Photon torpedoes that went into that star where modified ones, not your standard issue ones).

ECM makes a lot of sense, really. It neatly explains the issue without adding technobabble.

My last remarks:

1. While we know, that a torpedo has a shield and know, that such a shield was holding while the torpedo was in the core of a star (regardless how the conditions in that core were), we have not one single indication, that a torpedo does jamming or ECM or that its shield is boby trapped. Such theories needs more assumptions than the simple theory, that a torpedo shield, which existence is proven, is simply stronger, than those of a ship.
   
   And jamming or ECM wouldn't be a reason to at least try to destroy an incoming torpedo and it would still be possible to aim weapons according to the visual data, a 24th century computer of a star ship should be able to analyze.
2. There is not one single indications in the episode »Half a Life«, that the hardware of the torpedos were changed. Only the programming were changed. Nothing more.

[Mike DiCenso]

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I get that torpedoes are just too hard to hit in flight.

I'm still guessing it's a form of jamming/ECM going on, considering they have in fact shot down missiles that where 'lower tech' before. Super strong shields don't make much sense (besides, the Photon torpedoes that went into that star where modified ones, not your standard issue ones).

ECM makes a lot of sense, really. It neatly explains the issue without adding technobabble.

Well, given what we know, shield generators taking up a big chunk of space would explain some of the wacky looking "tanks" and other equipment seen in this cutaway schematic with callouts from the VOY season 6 episode "Live Fast and Prosper".
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

It took a hell of a time to see something such as the Defiant.
Even then, they had huge problems with the prototype (just what the hell?) and only produced something like 3 Defiant-class ships top.

Actually that would be incorrect as there are at least four more Defiant class starships seen in the mega-fleet that the Defiant and the Rotarran meet up with at the end of "A Call to Arms" [DS9, S5] and two more seen in "A Message in a Bottle" [VOY, S4] in addition to the Sao Paulo (later renamed Defiant), the original USS Defiant herself, and the Valiant.

So Starfleet built at least 9 of the class in total.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

My theory doesn't even rely on the rather absurd idea that the Federation would put godlike shields on torpedoes, but not on their ships.

?

Are you somehow arguing against the extraordinary performance of torpedo shields in "Half a Life"?

I'm asking for numbers from the ones who claim some extraordinary performance, in order to exactly gauge it, and I also ask for some sense.
Don't take it badly, I'd like to see some data to ponder, not just "it did it so hehe".

[Mr. Oragahn]

It took a hell of a time to see something such as the Defiant.
Even then, they had huge problems with the prototype (just what the hell?) and only produced something like 3 Defiant-class ships top.

Actually that would be incorrect as there are at least four more Defiant class starships seen in the mega-fleet that the Defiant and the Rotarran meet up with at the end of "A Call to Arms" [DS9, S5] and two more seen in "A Message in a Bottle" [VOY, S4] in addition to the Sao Paulo (later renamed Defiant), the original USS Defiant herself, and the Valiant.

So Starfleet built at least 9 of the class in total.
-Mike

Good, correction noted. I picked the number from memory alpha, but didn't notice the part about the other unnamed ships.
Still, that's rather low to my tastes.

[Roondar]

The more I read this thread, the more convinced I get that torpedoes are just too hard to hit in flight.

I'm still guessing it's a form of jamming/ECM going on, considering they have in fact shot down missiles that where 'lower tech' before. Super strong shields don't make much sense (besides, the Photon torpedoes that went into that star where modified ones, not your standard issue ones).

ECM makes a lot of sense, really. It neatly explains the issue without adding technobabble.

Well, given what we know, shield generators taking up a big chunk of space would explain some of the wacky looking "tanks" and other equipment seen in this cutaway schematic with callouts from the VOY season 6 episode "Live Fast and Prosper".
-Mike

Note that this is a reply to both the replies I got on the ECM idea, not just yours ;)

First off:

ECM not being named does not mean it's not used. Unless we're willing to state that Starfleets aim is rather poor, since they routinely manage to miss objects that are pretty much at point blank range. Note this (as far as I know) never happens when they aim at something that is not a ship/vessel or other technological construct.

They always hit natural objects with perfect accuracy, yet have problems with hitting much closer and bigger starships from time to time. Those ships using ECM is a logical, easy and simple answer to that issue.

Secondly: do not confuse ECM with just jamming. There are literally tons of ways to make a small object hard to hit in space, including projecting fake sensor images, dampening your own 'output' (like a limited form of cloaking), etc.

Thirdly: the schematic of that torpedo proves nothing. Those tanks could just be for fuel as far as we know, or contain the reactants.

--

Most of all, the nice part of ECM being used is that it actually explains a great deal in an easy way that does not require additional unknowns. If torpedoes use (think advanced Sci-Fi like levels of) ECM and are therefore ridiculously hard to hit, this both explains why they don't bother shooting them down and why they still manage to hit missiles shot by the technologically inferior Ferengi.

It also explains why Worf would need such an insane amount of time to lock on to Dr. Soran's missile: if there is ECM making it hard to see exactly where the missile is you first need to 'counter' the ECM before you can lock on for final destruction.

That is, unless we're willing to admit that the Federation's flagship at the time would need a staggering 8-15 seconds to lock on to something they can just see fly by out of the window, while on the other hand being able to shoot technologically inferior probes (the Lysian ones) down with 100% accuracy in no time flat.

[Mike DiCenso]

It took a hell of a time to see something such as the Defiant.
Even then, they had huge problems with the prototype (just what the hell?) and only produced something like 3 Defiant-class ships top.

Actually that would be incorrect as there are at least four more Defiant class starships seen in the mega-fleet that the Defiant and the Rotarran meet up with at the end of "A Call to Arms" [DS9, S5] and two more seen in "A Message in a Bottle" [VOY, S4] in addition to the Sao Paulo (later renamed Defiant), the original USS Defiant herself, and the Valiant.

So Starfleet built at least 9 of the class in total.
-Mike

Good, correction noted. I picked the number from memory alpha, but didn't notice the part about the other unnamed ships.
Still, that's rather low to my tastes.

I agree, there should have been more of the Defiant class shown. But the real-world reason for it, is silly: the show's production staff did not want the audience getting confused and mixing up a bunch of Defiant class ships with the main "hero" ship. The same reason was used for a long time as to why we did not see more Galaxy class starships in TNG and DS9 until the loss of the E-D in Generations, and it is again the same lame excuse for why we never saw Sovereign class starships in DS9 and VOY.
-Mike

[SailorSaturn13]

For the record, I'm not disputing good accuracy when most of the paramters are controlled.

When they are not, even the perfec accuracy can' help you. See the numbers:
Dimension of ST capital ships: <1000m length, <500m other axes (Borg not included)
Dimensions of a phototorps shields: <10-15 m
Acceleration of ST ships - over 1000g (10000m/s^2). That's for ships. A torpedo can have more, as it doesn't need gravity compensators.
Time in which a starship accelerating suddenly will evade its predicted shape(i.e. the points where ship is and where it would be if acceleration not changed don't overlap, fooling even perfect predictors): <0.3-0.4 s for main axis, <0.2-0.3 for side axis.
Time in which a torpedo accelerating suddenly will evade its predicted shape: <0.02-0.04s (for 4-16 m shield, respectively).
So if a Torpedo evades, there is simply no way to hit it, regardless of accuracy.