The 1.5 megaton myth

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:56 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Let me repeat:
Me wrote:And this would have happened AFTER the first battle had taken its toll, and it also reeks of hyperbole, but more importantly, it can be dismissed with these higher Canon examples:
RotS, AotC, TCW seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4... :)
I did quite clearly address your "hyperbole" claim. Your sources are far to broad. The fact that it happened after the first battle had taken its toll has absolutely no relevance to a cloaked ISD's capability of completely wiping out all sapient life on a populated and important planet, preventing any escape, even from a single manned fighter leaving from the other side of the planet!
And that matters how? Canon evidence still does not show such yields anywhere
Sure it does. It just happens to fit with DET Death Star firepower (DET being the method used in all of thermodynamics, the only of the two theories that is actually possible), the circumnavigation of Yavin (disputed, by silly handwaves such as claiming that the Death Star used a magical propulsion device that did not actually require acceleration), etc.
BTW, if we take RotS novel, which gives 1.5 Mt for HTL (4.5 max.), and compare volume of MTL and HTL bolts, we get ~300 m^3 for MTL (diameter 3.56 meters, length ~30 meters. Link) and ~ 2 570 000 m^3 for HTL bolts (Link). That would give 0,175 kilotons.
Several very, very serious problems with this (aside from stating as fact a calculation in which the entire thread is based on):

1. infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats [starfighters]

Since when are HTLs' RoF high enough so that it could create an "infinite lattice", and since when do they target starfighters?

2. You assume figurative vaporization for no reason at all. Furthermore, you attempt to derive an upper scientific limit from a figurative prose.

3. You assume that a SW small town is the same size as a modern small town using Appeal to Ignorance.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by sonofccn » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:03 pm

SWST wrote:The fact that it happened after the first battle had taken its toll has absolutely no relevance to a cloaked ISD's capability of completely wiping out all sapient life on a populated and important planet, preventing any escape, even from a single manned fighter leaving from the other side of the planet!
Visons of the future wrote:Cloaked Star Destroyer!" Han snapped back, twisting the helm yoke viciously, the whole plan suddenly coming clear. "That battle back there over Bothawui- all those ships beating each other into rubble- with a Star Destroyer waiting hidden here, ready to finish them all off and maybe burn Bothawui in the bargain. No survivors, no witnesses, only a battle everyone in the New Republic would blame everyone else for."
Unless you have additional information to add burning Bothawui isn't a given, its speculation that they might do that in addition to wiping out the survivors of the battle raging over it.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Picard » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:32 pm

Before he can claim that 1.5 megaton HTL are a "myth", he has to show how is Darkstar's interpretation invalid, and has to find explanations for other things we see in canon that don't fit teratons for ISD's cannons (TESB, asteroid field bringing down ISD's shields; TESB, kiloton range medium turbolasers; AotC/RotS, sub-kiloton weaponry damaging ships enough to force emergency landing; low-kiloton-range beams one-shotting Separatist cruisers. There might be something I'm missing, I didn't watch Star Wars for quite long time). Only then can he use EU. Beacouse EU is non-canon, low canon at best; and as such, it cannot be used to disprove anything movie- or TCW- -related (movie-related includes scripts, movie novels, and radio plays. ICS are not movie-related despite trying to present themselves as such).

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:37 pm

sonofccn wrote:
Unless you have additional information to add burning Bothawui isn't a given, its speculation that they might do that in addition to wiping out the survivors of the battle raging over it.
Yes, and do you think that Han Solo, a former member of the imperial academy that deals with ISDs on a daily basis, would speculate that a star destroyer could do something many orders of magnitude beyond what it actually could?

We know that it doesn't take large star destroyers to turn planets into molten slag:
"Suddenly scrutiny from the Empire brought al normal life on Nar Shaddaa to a screeching halt. Moff Sarn Shild proclaimed the Hutts' lawless territory would benefit greatly from stricter Imperial control. As a public-relations stunt, Shild was authorized to blockade Nal Hutta and turn the smuggler's moon into molten slag."
Although many have claimed that "slag" is hyperbolic/figurative, how do you justify this for "molten slag"? I invite you to show me three credible sources that use "molten slag" figuratively.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:40 pm

Picard wrote:Before he can claim that 1.5 megaton HTL are a "myth", he has to show how is Darkstar's interpretation invalid,
Sure. HTL's don't track starfighters. The turbolasers in the quote are stated to do so.
and has to find explanations for other things we see in canon that don't fit teratons for ISD's cannons (TESB, asteroid field bringing down ISD's shields;
The novel clearly mentions the asteroid impacting against the ship's hull, so there is no contradiction.
TESB, kiloton range medium turbolasers;
Lower Limit, not upper limit. You need to understand Appeal to Ignorance, the difference between upper and lower limits and SW canon policy better.
AotC/RotS, sub-kiloton weaponry damaging ships enough to force emergency landing;
No shields were present, and not all of the weaponry was "sub-kiloton"; we see a SPHAT from a hanger, ground artillery, tearing a kilometer long ship in two.
low-kiloton-range beams one-shotting Separatist cruisers.
And exactly how do you quantify that they are "sub-kiloton" in space?
There might be something I'm missing, I didn't watch Star Wars for quite long time). Only then can he use EU. Beacouse EU is non-canon, low canon at best; and as such, it cannot be used to disprove anything movie- or TCW- -related (movie-related includes scripts, movie novels, and radio plays. ICS are not movie-related despite trying to present themselves as such).
Actually, a decent argument could be made that the ICS is G canon. But I won't get into that now.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:33 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: We know that it doesn't take large star destroyers to turn planets into molten slag:
"Suddenly scrutiny from the Empire brought al normal life on Nar Shaddaa to a screeching halt. Moff Sarn Shild proclaimed the Hutts' lawless territory would benefit greatly from stricter Imperial control. As a public-relations stunt, Shild was authorized to blockade Nal Hutta and turn the smuggler's moon into molten slag."
Although many have claimed that "slag" is hyperbolic/figurative, how do you justify this for "molten slag"? I invite you to show me three credible sources that use "molten slag" figuratively.
Yet the Imperial captain who would actually run that operation knew that the real results were nothing like that.

The point, really, is that there, to this day, 13th of December, we've presented to you massive amounts of evidence, both from the EU and higher canon, that the firepower figures you think of are not legit.
At the very best you may obtain grounds for rare low-megaton levels of firepower.
I have recently listed the few sources that would allow a warsie to claim greater firepower, and they're nowhere close to ICS levels anyway (although one would allow for literal slagging, namely the quote from "Slave Ship", which is a book coming with another high end reference, one about extracting massive amounts of water from a planet, but which we already addressed and debunked in showing that there's nothing definitive to be found there).

You may also notice that you've sailed way off course from the main topic.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:51 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:The novel clearly mentions the asteroid impacting against the ship's hull, so there is no contradiction.
There is no data to define the size and speed of those asteroids either.
After all, the Milleninium Falcon could survive impacts which deflected rocks. I believe the very sloped and thickly armoured hull of an ISD wouldn't have much problems to deflect most of the small debris. In fact, in the movie, the fastest debris were the small ones. Barely bigger than a TIE fighter most of the time. The big ones were still.
And when a larger one flew into an ISD, it blew a whole section of it.
RSA once calculated the impact at around 8 KT, although I can't remember the momentum. That said, that momentum would never be a concern considering the hull properties given in the ICS.
AotC/RotS, sub-kiloton weaponry damaging ships enough to force emergency landing;
No shields were present, and not all of the weaponry was "sub-kiloton"; we see a SPHAT from a hanger, ground artillery, tearing a kilometer long ship in two.
It would easily fit with low terajoules. I wouldn't expect more considering that once the outer hull was breached, the beam delivered the rest of the energy inside the ship, in the softer parts, where fuel and atmosphere are present.
Notice that the beam didn't come out on the other end either! And despite the fact that overcoming the outer hull at the point of impact happened for only a fraction of the firing sequence. So really, low terajoules is the best you can claim here, otherwise there's nothing that would have prevented the beam from tearing the ship's a new hole on the opposite side.
See below for a quick firepower gauging of the event.

As for no shields being present, that may be true of some ships, but I doubt all of them were downed. In fact, we have clear evidence that some did have their shields up, as evidenced by the bolts impacting against Trade Fedaration battleships (the C shaped ones, with blue painting).

Besides, ALL the shots exchanged between the Venators and the Invisible Hand did produce explosions of similar magnitudes.
Although we can't explosions in space in a literal way, the magnitude of destruction is a good indicator of what Lucas was going for.
On that, we see that even the HTLs of the Venator firing at the IH weren't causing much more damage than the fixed gun positions firing through the windows.
All in all, the reentry caused about as much damage to formerly undamaged patches of the outer hull than the bombardment did, and to some extents, even more than said bombardment!

Perhaps the Venator was low on juice (I remember Leo pointing this out to me, there seems to be evidence of that in the novelization a few paragraphs before the naval battle), but we see that the hull still gets damaged by firepower nowhere near nuclear levels.

So the whole question is if the shields can actually cope with far more energies than the hulls can, and if yes, by which multiplier?
low-kiloton-range beams one-shotting Separatist cruisers.
And exactly how do you quantify that they are "sub-kiloton" in space?
By the amount of energy you'd know to actually destroy a ship that big by delivering the energy inside. Put the air on fire, melting metal and so on, there are limits to all that. Even if we want to ignore the explosions, we can still go with the narrative facts, being that a beam is fired for several frames (almost a second), breaches the hull on very first frames, keeps pumping energy into the ship, but never comes out of the other side.
Meaning that all the "fleshy"' and obviously weaker internal structures proved enough to absorb the entire rest of the beam.
A Hiroshima-like delivery of energy inside the ship would have been obviously much more violent than what happened.
There might be something I'm missing, I didn't watch Star Wars for quite long time). Only then can he use EU. Beacouse EU is non-canon, low canon at best; and as such, it cannot be used to disprove anything movie- or TCW- -related (movie-related includes scripts, movie novels, and radio plays. ICS are not movie-related despite trying to present themselves as such).
Actually, a decent argument could be made that the ICS is G canon. But I won't get into that now.
If that argument is that it has been a source of inspiration during some part of the production, you can already forget about it, as we already went there, and that against much fiercer debaters on the SW side.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:05 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Sure it does. It just happens to fit with DET Death Star firepower (DET being the method used in all of thermodynamics, the only of the two theories that is actually possible),...
The Death Star's firepower is certainly not based on pure DET. In fact, we can safely infer that a small quantity of it is.
... the circumnavigation of Yavin (disputed, by silly handwaves such as claiming that the Death Star used a magical propulsion device that did not actually require acceleration), etc.
I'd like to see more info on that.
BTW, if we take RotS novel, which gives 1.5 Mt for HTL (4.5 max.), and compare volume of MTL and HTL bolts, we get ~300 m^3 for MTL (diameter 3.56 meters, length ~30 meters. Link) and ~ 2 570 000 m^3 for HTL bolts (Link). That would give 0,175 kilotons.
Several very, very serious problems with this (aside from stating as fact a calculation in which the entire thread is based on):

1. infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats [starfighters]

Since when are HTLs' RoF high enough so that it could create an "infinite lattice", and since when do they target starfighters?
Don't be stupid. We have ample evidence from the movies that only heavy turbolaser can create long beams, either from ROTS or ROTJ (faint stuff in the background).

It's almost a parameter that's completely ignored by Lucas btw, as he insists that even HTLs fired on full produce short-length beams.

There's never been any infinite lattice to begin with, because we were in space to observe this. You know, the whole battle at the beginning of the movie, right?

All bolts, even those fired from HTLs (from Venators or the massive cannons on the Munificents) are barely visible a few km away.

The book is at complete odds with the movie here.
And it's not the first time we point out that to you.
You'd be welcome to finally acknowledge that. If you don't, I report you, and I'm sure that should once and for all be enough to get you the month long ban.
Then the next one will be two months long.
So be cautious and reply smartly.
2. You assume figurative vaporization for no reason at all. Furthermore, you attempt to derive an upper scientific limit from a figurative prose.
a. the reason why we do that is because it's totally valid to understand "vaporize" as level (verb).
b. we can derive a scientific model from the firepower needed to level a small town.
c. I'm not sure it could be used to establish a high end, but what is sure is that this feat was attributed to the weapons capable of producing shining hairlines contributing to that infinite lattice of fire. And we know that only HTLs could do that. In fact, only SPHA-T cannons could achieve such effects.
3. You assume that a SW small town is the same size as a modern small town using Appeal to Ignorance.
Appeal to ignorance?
Have you shown that you didn't ignore like a whole swathe of material?
I don't agree with people absolutely wanting to use this reference for an upper end, but I totally disagree with those who want to take the literal route and also claim a huge city and paint that as a low end, because it is far from being one.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by sonofccn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:10 am

SWST wrote:Yes, and do you think that Han Solo, a former member of the imperial academy that deals with ISDs on a daily basis, would speculate that a star destroyer could do something many orders of magnitude beyond what it actually could?
Sigh. Pointing out that Han's kill everyone and leave no witnesses thing doesn't mandant the planet be touched. He's refering to the battle taking place above it and if the planet is "burned" we have no time table, no requirments that no one survive, only no one able to identify a star destroyer which the quote indicates could only be done via another ship, and no indication of what "burn" entails.
We know that it doesn't take large star destroyers to turn planets into molten slag:
Book name and page number please.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:29 am

"Hutt Gambit" I think, and largely addressed on this forum.
SWST is essentially repeating an old one here.
I don't understand his insistence. One could easily counter him with that famous "terajoules of coherent light". I could easily point out that a large torpedo sphere would take hours to dig through the ice crust of some random planet, and yet those ships are supposed to be able to punch holes through hefty planetary shields ("Black Ice" RPG supplement, which I largely documented in the "review" forum).
I mean, we could pick any evidence we have gathered for years to oppose to the few bits he thinks he has on his side. I don't think he's care though.
Why JMS thinks this applies as fair debate is just beyond me.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:55 am

sonofccn wrote:
SWST wrote:We know that it doesn't take large star destroyers to turn planets into molten slag:
Book name and page number please.
SWST will just cite ICS again with the throughly debunked bit about heavy TLs on Acclamator assault ships being able to deliver 200 gigatons of energy per shot.
-Mike

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:17 am

SWST wrote:Lower Limit, not upper limit. You need to understand Appeal to Ignorance, the difference between upper and lower limits and SW canon policy better.
Debunked with regards to TESB since the asteroids have been shown to explode rather violently in low-velocity contact with each other as shown here in the "'sploding 'steroids : gasoline rocks :D" thread from a year and half ago. If these stupid asteroids explode with violent flashes of red sparkling light and gravel grain-like debris at a few tens of meters a second, and in that first example at what is essentially walking speed of 1-2 meters/sec, then how can we trust that the ISD bolts are really doing the vaporization in the later scene?

That being the case, stating kilotons for medium TL bolts really then becomes a wildly generous upper limit.
-Mike

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Picard » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:42 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Sure. HTL's don't track starfighters. The turbolasers in the quote are stated to do so.
Then I'd like you to post entire quote, beacouse I don't have access to it, just to one part.
The novel clearly mentions the asteroid impacting against the ship's hull, so there is no contradiction.
So shields don't stop KE? Oh, God...

Data: "Sir, their ships don't stop kinetic impacts."
Picard: "Worf, you're in command."
Worf: "Prrreeparrre forrrr the rrrrammingg speeed!!!"

or:

Data: "Sir, their ships don't stop kinetic impacts."
Picard: "Shut down shielding on quantum torpedoes. Get from behind so they can't shoot them down."

Besides, particle beams are form of KE weapon.
Lower Limit, not upper limit. You need to understand Appeal to Ignorance, the difference between upper and lower limits and SW canon policy better.
Upper limit being? As far as I can remember, larger asteroid completely stopped bolt. However, I can't check it beacouse I don't have access to movie.

Besides, these asteroids are... quite flammable, as can be seen from them exploding due to low-velocity impacts. Mike provided a link.
No shields were present, and not all of the weaponry was "sub-kiloton"; we see a SPHAT from a hanger, ground artillery, tearing a kilometer long ship in two.
SPHAT are in low double digit kilotons, at most, considering damage done to Trade Federation core ships, and the fact that they use normal steel for their ships etc.
And exactly how do you quantify that they are "sub-kiloton" in space?
As I said before, we see them being used on Geonosis.
Actually, a decent argument could be made that the ICS is G canon. But I won't get into that now.
And even more decent can be made that it is not canon at all, but I won't get into that now ;-).

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:22 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: We know that it doesn't take large star destroyers to turn planets into molten slag:
"Suddenly scrutiny from the Empire brought al normal life on Nar Shaddaa to a screeching halt. Moff Sarn Shild proclaimed the Hutts' lawless territory would benefit greatly from stricter Imperial control. As a public-relations stunt, Shild was authorized to blockade Nal Hutta and turn the smuggler's moon into molten slag."
Although many have claimed that "slag" is hyperbolic/figurative, how do you justify this for "molten slag"? I invite you to show me three credible sources that use "molten slag" figuratively.
Yet the Imperial captain who would actually run that operation knew that the real results were nothing like that.

The point, really, is that there, to this day, 13th of December, we've presented to you massive amounts of evidence, both from the EU and higher canon, that the firepower figures you think of are not legit.
At the very best you may obtain grounds for rare low-megaton levels of firepower.
I have recently listed the few sources that would allow a warsie to claim greater firepower, and they're nowhere close to ICS levels anyway (although one would allow for literal slagging, namely the quote from "Slave Ship", which is a book coming with another high end reference, one about extracting massive amounts of water from a planet, but which we already addressed and debunked in showing that there's nothing definitive to be found there).

You may also notice that you've sailed way off course from the main topic.
I'm afraid that you have failed to understand, Mr. O, that the various and numerous sources, half of them predating the ICS, quantifying Base Delta Zero as turning a planet's surface into molten slag are very much "legit" sources of evidence.

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Re: The 1.5 megaton myth

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:55 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: I'm afraid that you have failed to understand, Mr. O, that the various and numerous sources, half of them predating the ICS, quantifying Base Delta Zero as turning a planet's surface into molten slag are very much "legit" sources of evidence.
And you fail to understand that there are as many equally valid sources that show us much lower firepower, such as, say, Darksaber, the X-Wing series, and higher Canon sources such as the movies and TCW as well... :)

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