My god sonofccn, do you realize how frustrating this debate is? No, you don't, because you still believe in the following presuppositions:
1. Inductive reasoning based on canon evidence is by default invalid, despite the fact that 99% of all firepower calculations, fleet size estimations and even the outcome of this war is an educated guess based on this. I suppose I can dismiss your claim that the Federation will be victorious because you have no citation saying that it would.
2. Absence of proof is proof of absence, even in the presence of a high probability that said thing exists. For example, you conclude that, because there is no evidence of more than one port on Coruscant, that must mean that Galactic City cannot be assumed to have multiple ports, regardless of whatever legit statistics or reasoning I bring up.
3. Appeal to Ignorance is not a fallacy, see above. You believe that, since I cannot prove that people will volunteer to defend their homes and families, they will not, regardless of all common sense and statistical evidence.
[quote="sonofccn]Anytime they require to shoot something beyond tens of kilometers or in other words any argument on your behalf that the Federation suffer a range disadvantage is flawed and incorrect.
They prefer close combat for reasons best known to themselves but every time they need to shoot at something far away they accomplish it without issue. So to be quite plain spoken no Star Trek suffers no range disadvantage in comparison to Star Wars or any combat scenario thus within.
[/quote]
Wrong. They "needed" to shoot at 100,000 kilometers at the Battle of Worf. Well, if you count "needed" as in "needed to in order to save the thousands of lives they
could have saved".
Actually it would be you arguing a rifle can shot a target at 200 meters because you saw a soldier miss the guy who jumped from around the corner and knifed him.
No, your analogy is completely random. Nowhere in my argument do I cite evidence of Federation ships
missing other ships (although I could). I cite evidence of them
not firing at other ships. In addition, nowhere do I cite examples of ambushes "from around the corner".
We have no evidence anything prevents merely that they do not wish to do so. There is a difference. Now if you had eight or nine examples of them stating ship X is out of range in a messy fleet battle and we can see they are tens of kilometers apart that would be a contridiction but not this.
They do not wish to do so, so they will not do so.
[ A firepower supported by my other quotes and similar yields have been displayed elsewhere such
as here in Insurection
Granted not quite as powerful as say Worf's First contact shot since they used three weapons but in the same league.
Completely fails to address my point.
Actually everytime phasers disintergrate someone that is a far higher firepower than any blaster has ever done. And I have already linked to a phaser disintergration so I see no need to do so once again.
They don't disintegrate someone literally. They certainly don't vaporize anyone literally, as there is no vapor. It's NDF, and thus inapplicable once again, since it doesn't work against anything as hard as rocks.
I remember a door being blow open I don't remember it being vaporized or that it was done by an imperial blaster.
You see superheated gas shooting out of it.
Then please provide where ever this came from and we can discuss it.
In AotC, when Zam shoots Obi Wan's probe droid he was hanging on to from hundreds of meters away. The droid was very small, moving relatively fast and in the midst of thousands of airspeeders.
Blowing B1 battledroids into chunks is still far below Worf's shot or the insurection shot or the Return to Grace quote.
Both of which are never demontrated in actual combat, and both of which are therefore irrelevant.
Which merely means phasers were on a lower setting a canon known ability of phasers. No contridiction.
By that line of reasoning, every instance of inferior Wars firepower was simply because they were on a lower setting. No contradiction.
My showings have extreme practical application that they are not always used is a shame but thats a television show for you. I have proved it is canon that phaser firepower is extremely impressive and you will have to adjust to that fact.
So what? I don't care if phaser firepower is more impressive if, by your own admission, it isn't "always" used. Only what is used matters, and most of the time it is pew pew firepower.
No. You are arguing it is prohibativly power intensive so provide canon evidence supporting your theroy.
Simple;
they don't use it.
Population is easily subdued
Canon citations.
and the clone army counted in the millions as that episode I linked to you a few pages back mad clear.
Repost it. Remember that LFL stated that no definite number will ever be made clear, so therefore we have to make educated guesses. Educated guesses cannot be dismissed on a whim. My calculations make more sense, by your admission. Logical arguments is valid evidence.
The Federation has mortars as well
Used in how many episodes?
and the clonewars usage of artillery is a bit spotty.
Irrelevant. They are seen in the movies quite clearly.
I'm detecting very little evidence you promised to provide.
Simple. Stormtroopers use NPC gear. The obvious implication is that chemical weapons are commonly used. The rest can be easily wookieed.
Is there a solitary G-canon bit of evidence to support anything but radios in their helmets, not even holo displays just audio radios?
There may be, but I don't care if there wasn't, unless if there is a contradiction. I don't understand how I'll get it through to you that C canon evidence is, based on Chee's policy, valid unless directly contradicted. Statements from you like the above are irritating, if I must be honest.
I fail to see how a combadge is particuarly impractical.
It doesn't distinguish between your voice and background nosie (of which there would be plenty in combat) and your enemies can pick up on the audio.
Maco's would disagree with you there and if you are claiming they are inexperienced at ground warefare please provide supporting evidence.
Why don't you provide evidence of any large scaled Trek ground combat in the serie's history?
They have mortars as I already shown,
Having them =/= using them.
grenades have been observed with rival powers such as the Dominion stun-grenade.
Don't care about the Dominion.
Read better.
I was generalizing, and made it clear that I was. Whether or not they have body armor in one shot does not override the fact that they never do anytime else.
Must I pull up examples, then, of unarmored redshirts being shot in the chest and surviving?
True but neither do clonetroopers/stormtroopers, remember the blue shadow virus?
Once again, your obsession with false dilemnas is apparent. The fact that a supervirus can penetrate their gear does not mean they do not have any. There are multiple C canon source books and novels referencing the clones' and stormies' advanced HUD systems and NPC gear protection.
Additionally, when the Falcon first arrives on the Death Star you see several stormies operating in a vaccum.
Actually I think the shuttle qualiify since its for all intents a flying tank and there is the Breen CRM-114 rifle
Buisness as Usual wrote:QUARK
The Breen CRM-one-fourteen works
equally well against moving
vessels or surface emplacements.
It's guaranteed to cut through
reactive armor in the six-to-
fifteen centimeter range, and
shields up to four-point-six
gigajoules.
Being sold to the galactic equivilent of tinplated dicators and indicates ground battles in Trek involve shielding up to four point six gigajoules.
Impressive, but not impressive enough. The Gungans' shield was able to withstand bombardment from dozens (hundreds?) of AATs. In Clone Wars: Stealth, a shield designed for shielding a poor village from storms held of continuous bombardment from several hundred battle droids for a week.
Similarly, Obi Wan's small Jedi starfighter withstood one of Slave 1's rapid fire laser cannons, rated at least several hundred megajoules per shot, with just a small hole.
Considering they likely have a firing cycle measured in miliseconds, as the Cardasion rifle makes clear, that is incorrect.
Except that they
never use it.
Phasers render most other distinct weapons obsolete, why waste time building a carbine, a rifle and amachine gun when the phaser can do the job of all of them?
Phaser pistols, which are what 99+% of redshirts are equipped and possibly trained in, cannot replace any of the above. When 99% of your enemies are unarmored, having a high firepower weapon is not as effective or important as having a high RoF/fire spread weapon such as an automatic weapon.
There are numerous examples: Siege of AR58, Deadlock, Nemesis, in which starfleet personnel get their asses kicked in situations in which a single machine gun squad would have easily turned the tide of the battle.
Several don't have triggers as we'd call it. The point? They canonically don't all shoot themselves in the foot.
No, but it is reflective of their overall poor weapon design and lack of really caring about it at all. Phasers may have [relatively] impressive firepower [usually], but this does not make up for their lack of armor, effective communications systems, long ranged weapons or grenades. Having a very powerful pistol is
not going to stop you and your squad from being blown to bits by artillery behind a hill 20 kilometers away.
Where does it state fighters are in ship count? Please provide this source.
From what I recall, Federation fighters are not assigned to large warships. Since they do not follow that level of organization, there is no reason to assume that they would be distinguished from the term "ship".
You are free to argue this but so far G-canon supports easily conqured populations.
I would be
very interested of your film/film-novel quote that supports an "easily conquered" populace. Easily conquered populaces do not require "omnipresent" clones to patrol every street and corner, nor does a passive populace violently and openly rebel against a foreign power. A passive populace does not include a seedy underbelly and constant terrorist attacks rampant during the Clone Wars.
Indeed, when the Yuuzhan Vong took Coruscant, there were pockets of resistance circles that fought back. And the Vong are a whole lot more intimidating than a bunch of guys in red pajamas.
In LOTF:Revelation, Pelleaon commented that Fondor's populace would never surrender, not even to orbital bombardment, until their homes were completely reduced to rubble.
They are
human[oid], and by nature don't like being invaded by foreign powers. To say otherwise would be to argue that SW sapients have a fundamentally different mindset than we do, even though the characters seem completely human to us.
Clones are the primary army of the Republic, the Grand army of the Republic.
Prove it.
They number in the millions. They are not represented as a tiny minority awash in a huge, bulging army of nonclones.
Actually, if you claim that they number only in the millions, that implies a far larger volunteer army, since a few million troops cannot possibly fight a galactic war.
Never claimed no one would fight, simply not in mass as you desire.
1% volunteers to defend your homes and families is not "in the mass". On the contrary, it is far lower than
peacetime volunteering for an unpopular war abroad.
Indeed, even a 0.01% volunteer rate; meaning that only one in every ten thousand people would come up with the brilliant idea of trying to defend their families, lives and homes, would overwhelm your Federation.
Or if everybody just refuses to fight (in which case I'd quit; they're obviously not deserving of defending anyway), just undergo conscription,
as canonically happened in the Clone Wars.
With Wookiees or on Ryloth the clonetroopers were not depicted as massviely dwarfed by the native militias.
Actually, not Kashyyk there was a sizable force of Wookiees fighting alongside clone troopers. We only get to see a kilometer squared area of the entire planet at war however, in both instances.
And if they drafted 300 billion the clones would be a minority which isn't what we see.
Actually, they did:
(The New Essential Chronology)
"Conscription, however, was a necessary reality. Countless beings of every species became draftees into the Grand Army of the Republic."
There is no getting around this, the Clonewars was a major war in the history of Star Wars and for the most part the actual populace were either spectators or trampled upon.
Funny, since Clone Wars: wild Space starts off with Obi Wan almost being killed by a terrorist attack, which were stated to have been frequent. In the Labyrinth clone troopers were omnipresent on Coruscant, present at every hallway and city block.
Not to mention that the GA military is a volunteer force. Heck, the imperial military also consisted of a sizable portion of volunteers, and, of course, there is the Rebel Alliance.
What? The Clonewars was a massive military conflict across the Republic with the Seppies conquring several planets and looting and plundering them. They sold an entire colony into slavery for crying out loud this is not some brushfire war on the frontier this was a mammoth battle for the soul of the Republic. As to the goverment what evidence do you have Palpy was unpopular? He appeared to have almost everyone wrapped around his finger.
Palpy was popular, the government itself was not. Even
Padme expresses her doubts over the rightousness of the war. However, in the case of an invasion of Coruscant, it hardly matters whether you like the government or not, because your homes are getting invaded.
Wouldn't doubt it. But we are talking about Star Wars not the Confederate States of America. Stick to canon and make your case.
Humans are humans. Both were under the same governmental system.
He was given brigades and sent to Utapa? It meshes with batallions of clones taking out Umbara?
taken form here
ROTS Script wrote:MACE: (continuing) Obi-Wan, prepare two clone brigades as quickly as you can. If this report is true, there's no telling how many battle droids he may have with him.
Obi Wan was launching a surgical strike on a single city of the entire planet. According to the trusty Wookieepedia, the droids still controlled the rest of the planet, whose fighting we did not get to see. Occupation of the planet was never his intention.
Indeed, the fact that the indigenous people fought back alongside the clones, even though their warriors still used animal mounts, is proof that SW sapients are not all magically passive the instant a foreign army sets foot on their soil.
Not according to Star Wars canon. And that is the short and long of it.
Except that THEY DO. My god you have absolutely NO idea how fucking annoying it is to try and get it through to you that a 1% volunteer rate in the case of an invasion is ridiculously conservative.
I am following the canon. Worlds are easily taken.
Show me where in "the canon" that proves that SW denizens will flee in terror.
Over ruled by the canon policy you said we must follow.
Correction: it was actually from Inside the World. Anyway, no it is not.
The appear in TCW too, mostly as robots however.
Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? You didn't bother to refute anything that I said, if anything, you agreed with me.
So we've established that there is a competent police force on Coruscant. Therefore, there are billions of police officers at the very least there. Must I add on that they are described as being armed with blaster rifles and combat armor?
For example, when Jysella Horn loses her mind to a type of mental disease and goes crazy, within minutes a group of eight "heavily armored" GA soldiers appear and take her down. If what you are possibly going to counter my statement with; that this police force is really just a few hundred thousand officers throughout the entire planet, the chances of a group of them just happening to be within minutes of a Jedi is infinitely small.
And do we have canon numbers on them? Do we know how much territory they actually patrol? Because most of the cops I've seen hang out with the senators in the good side of Coruscant not the seedy underhive.
The "good side" of Coruscant is still the entire planet surface.
Trillion, singular.
No, trillions. Hundreds of trillions, but you obviously are not very friendly to math.
What I think isn't revelant.
But you are claiming that X Federation troops can overwhelm Y number of Coruscant troops. The validity of your statement is VERY much dependent on X and Y.
We're role playing, right? This would be how your planning session will go out:
Adviser: sir, their planet is protected by a shield.
You: ok...blockade it.
...
Advisor: sir, for some reason their shield has been lowered. Um, what shall we do.
You: commence ground invasion.
Advisor: sir, their population is over one trillion. Surely trying to occupy such a large populace.
You: nah, do you have proof that they'd form militias or volunteer?
Adivsor: no, but every defending civilization in history-
You: then they won't.
Advisor: could they not conscript-
You: NAH THEY WON'T!
...
Advisor: sir, we do not know how many ground troops they possess.
You: It's irrelevant.
Advisor: ...I quit.
But I do not know, it would be a known unknown and at best I can make educated guesses based upon what I know such as looking at the Clonewars, noting how many soldiers they deploy during that conflict, how aggressivly member worlds fought to defend themselves ect.
Then make it. Educated guesses are valid so long as they are educated. Remember that the outcome of this debate can only be guessed intelligently as well, as can firepower yields (except for when they are bluntly stated, which is rare).
But they follow their leader who does.
Really? That's funny, because I heard of something called a Rebel Alliance from someone before.
Well for starters we weren't talking about Federation worlds, you were stating your belief the Federation couldn't hope to transport enough soldiers to conqure even Naboo and I was merely enlightening you on the actual numbers deployed to take these worlds.
Your actual numbers goes by this logic:
We see X number of troops in Y scene in the movies/TCW. Said scene shows about 10 kilometers squared of the Outer Rim planet's surface. Therefore,
the entire planet must have only consisted of a few thousand troops duking it out. Therefore, since an Outer Rim planet can be taken with a few thousand troops, a few million can take
and occupy the Galactic Capital of trillions.
2. I'd point to the forty billion lost in Yesterday's Enterprise against the Klingons, the 900 billion projected to be lost to the Dominion in Statisitcal Probabilities as the sort of resietence expected to be incured taking the Federation.
Absolutely nothing compared to the 300 trillion lost in the Yuuzhan Vong war.
It is canon, spelled out quite plainly and approved of by the one who is the Lord and Master of the verse in question.
I would be interested in where in G canon (as you claim it exists in) a few thousand troops can
occupy a planet
like Coruscant.
If you disregard it on a whim you are no longer debating Star Wars.
This is another example of your dishonest debating. "on a whim" implies that I simply dismiss it without evidence. Using statistics and mathematics is not "on a whim", whether or not it is valid.
What
you are doing; responding to a long post not by questioning the validity of my calcs, but by dismissing it solely on the basis of being "speculation" or "fan calcs" is called "on the whim".
And ROTS and the clonewars tops out a C-canon book.
Pau City =/= Galactic City.
You still have failed to show convincing TCW evidence.
Look either they are extremely sedate
Which is not true. The Coruscant portrayed in AotC does not look sedate at all. The fact that the populace in the bar quickly recovered from a criminal getting her arm slashed off implies that it is commonplace.
or they have almost no population on them.
Wow, you are really digging your own grave on this one, aren't you? Since Coruscant quite demonstrably
does have a large populace, your evidence is debunk, or irrelevant.
I picked the least stupid opition Lucas has provided.
Which is...? You concede that my theory is less stupid, and you still refuse to believe it. My, my.
I didn't say there wouldn't be a criminal element but that isn't an organized resiestence that's getting mugged and waking up outside a bar with your wallet missing.
The fact that there is a criminal underbelly means that the population is not populace. Therefore, there will be a resistance.
And if you're planning an invasion, you
have to assume all of these things, or else you'd be a truly idiotic commander. Like, you know, the one that "assumes" that nobody will resist him.
Pirates would not be part of the sedate population no and if you have canon evidence as to thier numbers please feel free to bring them into our discussion.
Nothing in the universe suggests a sedate population. Sedate populations do not openly rebel against the government, host protests (FOTJ:Backlash) or stage terrorist attacks on the capital (Clone Wars:Wild Space).
Neither of which contridicts or invalidates anything I have posted.
Did you even bother to read what I was typing?
They rebeled against a peaceful government that they didn't like. What would they do when a foreign power invades their homes? According to you, sit down and suck on their thumbs.
And if you have G-canon evidence of millions or billions of people rising up to form a militia or really anything actually specific I'd really want to see it.
Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy.
The quote if you please.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DC-15A_blaster_rifle
Considering its a tad bigger than your standard blaster rifle and this is a one off occurence lightyears ahead of the other examples bringing it up is hardly definative for Imperial weapons.
It's funny how you use a single source from the film-novels to justify one of your statements, and then you turn around and deny my G canon citation because it's "a one off occurrence". It's canon, right? The canon that you feel trumps all logic and common sense. So can it.
Yes it is definitive, because it is primary canon. I don't care what you think.
My point being its one example being extrodinary more powerful than Imperial weapons are depicted as, its an outlier. It isn't a standard weapon, its scale isn't observed again etc.
Too bad. It's The Canon that you worship. Deal with it.
And Photon grenades were stocked piled at a colony on the edge of the Federation.
And never used. Big deal.
Once is not enough either. Try again.
You are arguing they are not mass produced?
A single quote suggesting that they are stockpiled once does not refute the fact that we never see any ground troops carrying them more than once or twice.
here since I currently don't have access to the Imperial source book. They punch through by finding the weakspot and firing a concetrated volley followed by a turbolaser blast. With Trek Sensors and thousands of ships replicating this little feature should not be difficult.
Yes it would. Torpedo spheres are essentially min-Death Star, with over 500 heavy proton torpedos and 100 turbolasers. They make holes in planetary shields and then fire turbolasers into them. Problem is that phasers are NDF based and thus rarely used for bombardment, so even if you made a hole (impossible) with your puny photon torpedos, you'd have to launch more through the hole, which would get shot down, as demonstrated in the RotS novelization where LAAT gunships can shoot missiles down from the sky.
In addition, as LOTF:Relelations demonstrates, the Coruscanti people will not surrender from a few bombardments. You'd have to reduce their homes to rubble, which you would lack the sufficient photon torpedos to do.
It was quite harmful to humans, and it was regarded as something as a miracle the people had adapted to it.
Well said, I missed that. But it still isn't justification for transporters and phasers to be overcome by it, since the humans and plant life were still able to adapt to it.
You will need to provide evidence for this assertion. Ionization has been known to hinder beaming, as well as radiations through those tend to kill organics with prolonged exposuer, but a random jamming device would fall to you to prove.
Space age jamming > natural radiation. Fact. If this somehow fails, just equip everyone with NPC gear and radiation poison the surface. Well, that would do more than disable your transporters; it would kill all of your men.
If you wish to claim weapons which can obliterate rock and metal as phasers have been demostrated to do can't dig a trench needed to trip an AT-AT you will need to provide evidence. They are not that big nor are they particuarly stable.
No, you need to provide evidence to the contrary. Remember how you dismissed my "speculation" because I don't have "canon proof"?
Actually I meant infantry doing it since the thing is a giant, lumbering target they should see off for miles and detect further out with tricorders. Granted you need two buildings or similar to string the cord out but it is an option.
Lumbering target? Its max speed is 60 kph, and it is commonly supported by AT-STs as is shown in ESB.
Useless, they would bounce off.
here and
here for what a shuttle can do
What? Blow up a truck?
As to phasers look back to that metal disc and that rock wall and imagine volleys of such shots striking the AT-AT.
Yes, I can. They would bounce off. AT-ATs are stated to be immune to "all but the heaviest artillery". Heaviest artillery in Star Wars are these:
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/image ... kl6mRYec9k
One of which blasted a CIS destroyer into two with a single hit in the Battle of Coruscant.
Shuttles are shield and Runabouts can take a couple of blasts from Dominion Bugships.
Shuttles are shielded, presumably to "4.2 gigajoules" or less.
In addition the bare hull of a 22nd century shuttlepod could take a quarter kiloton blast at a few meters. LAATs will be handled fairly swiftly and easily
Of course, you will provide evidence of this.
Look back at Worf or the insurection scene or anytime some is disintergrated. All far more energetic than what we saw at Genosis.
No, it isn't. SPHATs took down a shielded starship. Do you think that Worf's phaser can take down a shielded starship?
I think I have demostrated rock formations are not match for a phaser.
If they dial it up, yes. In rates actually used in combat, it fails.
or a door that phasers couldn't budge, but Wolf could by ramming it).
You will need to provide far more than merely a refrence. Pictures, video, script, something.
http://www.tv-links.eu/tv-shows/Star-Tr ... episode_1/
Evidence suppression fire is unknown to Trek.
Evidence it is
known?
Voyager: Deadlock. Federation redshirts flee from encroaching intruders down a corrider despite cover areas clearly being available. They are shot.
You will provide evidence of atrocious aim on the Federation part, since you are trying to argue an accuracy advantage for the Wars side.
No, I'm trying to argue that your redshirts can't blast apart mobile droidekas.
Very simple. Fighter grade weapons crack Droidekas like walnuts, fighter grade weaponry is not overly energetic in the films and Genonosis in particular, far less than high end phaser showings. Ergo if a fighter can kill a shielded robot a phaser can.
Not overly energetic?
Go take an RPG and try blasting an asteroid apart.
Then they would be a difficult foe to defeat.
clap clap clap
Once or twice? I have provided five seperate pieces of evidence supporting my position and as I have stated trigger guards are hardly crucial, armor they posses if only a light combat jacket and they have no need for combined small arms.
Five seperate examples of photon torpedos being used?
Of body armor?
Of
cover?
No I'm assuming when someone says uncounted "X" he means "X" not "Y" times "X". This is simiple human speech.
Yes, and 100 quadrillion is "quadrillions".
No. I am assuming the more likely, and simplier, option of the two offered choices. That my friend is logic.
Textbook example of a black and white fallacy. You yourself chastised me for claiming a contradiction between X ranges and Y ranges. Don't only apply rationalizations on a convenient basis.
My position being adhereing to the evidence.
Another fucking example in which you seemingly didn't even read the post you were responding to. "My position being adhering to the evidence" does not address ANYTHING I had just stated above.
What basis may I ask? You were complaining the numbers "don't make sense" arguing to ignore Lucas's approved figures for his universe. What you were doing was exactly fan calculations which can never trump Lucas.
Lucas's approved figures? What? LFL came out and said that no definite clone wars army size will ever be made clear. That leaves us with your worst enemy: inductive reasoning and educated guessing. You've done none.
You were the one who claimed their must be other ports. There is nothing in the quote itself that demands it. There could be or there could be not.
Appeal to Ignorance.
More or less.
Funny how you accept the above with absolutely no "canon evidence", but refuse to accept that there will be 1 billion volunteers out of >1 trillion civilians without "canon evidence" (which I have provided).
Ah it takes the greatest frieght docks in the Galaxy and continually coming frieghters to transfer just this millions of tons of supplies I don't think you can just hoarde more.
Yes you can, if one port can supply it all.
He's talking about the Empire, which sprang from the 100,000 thousand world Republic, there is no reason not for him to include fifty million colonies when he says the million systems of the empire.
Who says he didn't? A million "systems".
Obviously I'm not stating there wouldn't be other rocks in space in the system but they are not multiple habited planetary bodies, the Hoth system has as far as we know only Hoth supporting life.
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Please list mutiple planet systems with life, civilization etc surly if there are hiding fifty million worlds you should be able to find several refrences to systems sharing.
Why? It's a rationalization that makes perfect sense.
I accept G-canon first and then look at C-canon to see if it can be bent to made to work with the highest canon yes.
So how do you bend 100 quadrillion to fit with quadrillions?
You have noticiably failed to provide evidence of the superfleets just thinking would bring about.
I have provided evidence that I, as the leader, have the means to do so.
Whenever it would be impractical or impossible to carry out their prefrence to short ranged attacks. Fleeing frieghters would be such a scenario.
On the other hand, they fail to use it against a giant borg cube. They fail to use it in the Dominion battles while lining up in
vertical battle lines in space, a formation so impossibly stupid I fail to see why you assume that the Federation will use any sort of the tactics you claim at all.
Canon states planets are easily subdued, brigades and batallions are tossed around not divisions. I can not ignore canon.
You aren't. I have brought forth plenty of canon evidence of my own.
Actually we are talking of conquring not holding and you talking about raising billions strong militia armies to route mine but the resiestence is canonical set low and starships are great equilizers.
Is this a joke? Conquering = holding.
No actually. I state there was no evidence for additional ports in contrast to your "its obvious" statment. I have not argued for it either way merely corrected that from the quote itself nothing demands additional ports.
So because there is no definite proof of X existing, we cannot assume that it does, even though math and statistics points to it existing?
Please call up the scientific community and tell them that their black hole theories and big bang theories are bunk.
It doesn't matter what I believe Lucas has set the population for the Republic at Trillions. That is a solid canon fact and to fight against it would be akin to fight against gravity in our universe.
So fighting against a limited 3rd person narrator is akin to fighting gravity, but fighting statistical population growth isn't?
Of course, you do not feel that canon = gravity when, say, a probe droid destroys a wampa.
1.Fleet numbers have been provided to you by multiple people. I won't repeat them.
Fact: Romulans were making hostile movement with 30 warbirds, this was BIG news.
Fact: Federation sent
fifteen ships in retaliation.
Fact: The Republic mobilized for the first time thousands of ships to attack Geonosis in a matter of hours.
Fact: There were more than 15 ships at the battle of Coruscant.
4. It takes weeks for a dedicated transport with sufficent shuttles to lift the colonists out of a hyperadiation flooded planet.
Yes, you're right. That's my point. Regardless of whether or not it was "hyperradiation" flooded (why they did not have safeguards against this, we have no idea), it's still an example of pathetic Federation logistical capabilities.
5.Please cite the revalent passage for thousands of kilometer long Acclamators
I cannot locate the quote at this moment. I have the AotC novel with me, so I'll try and relocate it. A quick google search found this:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 9&start=25
In which a member of the board claims this passage exists as well.
Also, unrelated:
WEG
Due to the high volume of starship traffic around Kuat itself, direct hyperspace travel to the planet is forbidden. It's also impossible. The Kuat system proper consists of a star, four planets (including Kuat), and thousands of stardock facilities orbiting Kuat's sun. Navigators plotting direct courses are surprised when their hyperdrives cut out before the ship is even near the system - the stardocks extend that far out.
6.While your at it please post the revelent portions of All Good Things
My pleasure:
NAKAMURA: I'm initiating a fleetwide Yellow Alert. Starfleet intelligence has
picked up some disturbing reports from the Romulan Empire. It appears that at least thirty Warbirds have been pulled from other assignments and are heading for the Neutral Zone.
PICARD: Is there any indication why they would make such a blatantly aggressive move?
NAKAMURA: Our operatives on Romulus have indicated that there appears to be something happening in the Neutral Zone -- specifically, in the Devron System. Our own long range scans have picked up some kind of spatial anomaly in the area, but we can't tell what it is.
PICARD: What are our orders?
NAKAMURA: This is a delicate situation. I'm deploying fifteen starships along our side of the Neutral Zone. I want you to go there as well -- see if you can find out what's going on in the Devron System.
7.Actually I never said I thought the Federation would win. Indeed read my first post in this thread and I say just the opposite. I merely do not agree with your calculations.
What a [not] brilliant goalpost shift.
In closing SWST take a breath, collect your evidence and then post. If you do not have evidence then we are through with our discussion.
I have plenty of evidence. What irritates you is when I apply mathematics and educated guessing those said evidence. You feel that any analysis of quotes beyond bluntly reading it can be dismissed on the grounds of being "speculation".
Of course, you don't apply this ridiculous rule of yours both ways, and have no problem with speculating on the morale of the GA's citizens and the respective universes' firepower.
