Star Wars Industrial supremacy fact or fairy tale?

[Picard]

Breetai;

1. George Lucas confirms that the film novels are G canon, above even TCW. The only things higher than it are the films themselves and GL's own statements.

True.

3. I am politely, kindly asking you to provide quotes, pictures, video, etc of your claims as to ST building planets. I am asking for proof. If it is blatantly obvious, then this should be even easier.

Episode "Relics". Drayson sphere - it probably requred resources from several dozen solar systems to construct.

4. The Enterprise's shields fell once to about 4 gigawatts of power, and later to about half a kiloton of EM radiation. A star destroyer's HLs even by darkstar's calculations are 1.5 megatons, 3000 times stronger than the explicitly stated upper limit of the Enterprise via Data.

They once fell to pseudo-God and second time to few hundreds of thousands times more energy than Wong suggested.

5. The 5 km tall skyscrapers of Coruscant can survive the stresses of tens of millions of tons weighing down upon them, as the canon films show in TPM, AoTC and ROTS. In contrast, the Enterprise was penetrated by the kinetic energy of the level of an Ak47 volley. Do not laugh this off, because canon evidence supports this.

Proof?

6. In TCW, a rocket launcher blasts off an entire cliff side, showing power on par with modern MOAB's...with a shoulder mounted weapon. Star Trek phasers on full power vaporized a woman, with no excess energy.

...and have potential to destroy half of building (shown), or penetrate MBT (half of GW of DET from hand phaser).

7. In an episode of Voyager, Janeway and her crew get into a firefight. Guess what? Their phasers are visibly doing literally NO damage to naturally formed rocks.

Guess what? You don't need to blast rocks to kill someone. Plus phaser kill setting is just extremely heavy stun.

[Mike DiCenso]

Breetai;

5. The 5 km tall skyscrapers of Coruscant can survive the stresses of tens of millions of tons weighing down upon them, as the canon films show in TPM, AoTC and ROTS. In contrast, the Enterprise was penetrated by the kinetic energy of the level of an Ak47 volley. Do not laugh this off, because canon evidence supports this.

Proof?

Actually, if SWST is going to go down this route, then he/she has to acknowledge that similar large structures do exist in Trek. For example this one of Farius Prime from "Honor Among Thieves":







Note the trams going by from a sense of scale, and the spread of a very large set of skyscrapers, perhaps several km tall far away in the background there. Given the scale of this industrial sector and city, we can make all kinds of energy calculations for ST now since no one even bats an eye at how developed the planet is.
-Mike

[Mith]

Huh? A number you pulled out of nowhere,

The Galactic Empire had a million worlds according to Tarkin, as many as 50 million or even 100 million according to EU sources.

A million worlds as per G canon overwrites all the absurd 50 million or 100 million planets. It again, also doesn't tell us much given that many settlements we find aren't really all that large in any era, save for the core worlds. And guess what? The core worlds were already present as per the Old Republic and even many of them weren't that massive in their industry. Thus far, the largest we've seen in regards to that is Coruscant, Christophelies, and the Mandorian moon world. The rest are made up of small towns and villages dotted across the landscape--remember that Ryloth was fairly high up the list for invasion by the CIS (double digits) due to its treasures and it didn't appear all that well off at all.

The most planets the Federation has ever been stated to have is a thousand.

By Kirk. In regards to humans. When he was in his 30s. In fact, how about we look at that? Cochrane was last seen in 2119 before he vanished and left for his trip. So we have 148 years between when Kirk's statement and Cochrane's departure.

Let's ignore the bit about this just being humans and assume that in 2267 that the Federation had expanded to a thousand colonies. Well, alright, could one then argue by 2367 that the Federation had expanded at least another thousand colonies? Sure, easily.

But I argue that it's more.

First off, there were many changes between when Cochrane was on Earth and after he left. Most noticeably was the invention of the warp 5, warp 7, and presumably the warp 8 engine. Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellariite all went from maybe 6-12 colonies each (let's say 6 Earth, 12 Vulcan, 12 Andorian, and 6 Tellarite) for ~36 colonies. Hell, let's even add in the home worlds too, so we get a total of 40 worlds.

Now, warp speed would greatly effect colonization efforts. As Kathryn Janeway stated off hand in Voyager, their speeds had doubled since the time of late era TOS, so logically their colonization efforts would have grown as well. We also have to consider terraforming technology, which was vastly improved over the years since TOS.

More so, the industrial base as well. We saw that in TOS, we went from building a few hundred ships within the span of a few decades that they went to building tens of thousands in roughly eighty years. This massive eruption of HINs suggest that the Federation enjoyed a great deal of growth since its time in TOS. No doubt the advancement or replicator technology and the like would have helped, but this can't account for all of it.

The Federation at this point probably has thousands of worlds under its belt.



Again, all of this was debunked. There is nothing to show for that throughout most of SW's history until the coming of Palpatine, the Clone Wars, and the Galactic Empire. But need we remind you that the Galactic Republic was essentially at risk of being bankrupted by that war, and all over the purchasing of just 5 million extra clones.

[/quote]

Which is impossible, because the government would have to have spent trillions of times more money every year just to feed its citizens.

By lower canon. Nor was the actual sum of the purchase stated, just that 5 million clones would break the bank.

The idea that a galactic government cannot support 5 million clone troopers is impossible, because if that were, true, it would have collapsed long ago.

It also very likely takes into account the ships, vehicles, food, training, weapons, and other things you need to use those clones, as well as the costs for creating them, which I can't imagine would be cheap to begin with. Even assuming it costs only 100 credits to create a single clone, it would result in a price tag of 500,000,000 credits alone. That's not including the costs of equipping said army. The price tag is likely to be much higher than that for the clones alone and it's likely to have cost billions of credits.

It's a logical fallacy, whoever came up with the 5 million clone army figure.

That's not a logical fallacy dumbass. It's T canon--approved by George Lucas and it supports the statements of a 3 million clone army since they were effectively talking about nearly doubling their original fighting force.

If 5 million credits severely stressed out the Galactic Republic:

Because obviously, a single clone trooper costs less than a pair of boots.

There are also contradictions in the clone army figures:

The Republic quickly ordered 1000 Acclamator star destroyers at the start of the war. Based on the crew of the Acclamators, that would imply >10 million clone troopers. Why clone troopers, you ask? Ironically, Karen Traviss confirmed that Acclamators are fully crewed by clone troopers.

Except higher canon overrides lower canon. This shouldn't be hard to understand. If you want to bridge the gap in logic, you could simply point to the fact that the Acclamators were designed to carry a maximum of 10,000 troops, but rarely do so due to say, limits in crew and soldiers.

And somewhat dishonest using Traviss considering she outright supports lower numbers in her writings.

The full scale war mobilization dominion/federation/etc. ship numbers do not volumetrically add up to anywhere near that of the Death Star 1 or 2.

So what? The Death Star was where good money went to die. It cost the Empire untold amounts of credit even including a slave labor force and the fact that Palpy manipulated everything. That's ignoring the fact that the UFP has its own wonders its constructed--such as the downright massive Memory Alph, Beta, Delta, and Gamma that they built in over a century. Assuming similar sizes for each, it as well as their starbases would make the UFP industrial base amazing for its small size.

You have no idea how fucking massive the Death Stars were, do you?

You have absolutely no idea how big not only is the gap between stars, but the immense size of a galaxy--even a small one, is, do you?

The Empire built one in 6 months; or, depending on your sources, a few years, to 60% completion.

Which you made up since Wookieepedia sources suggest 2-4 years for 60%, suggesting that the construction would probably have been closer to 5-7 years.

In the meantime, the Federation with several years of full scale war mobilization could churn out 5 digit ship numbers, most of which were smaller than 500 meters in length. Compared to a 160 km or 900 km battle station, constructed in secrecy in the outer rim in less than a year?

That's a laugh. The Empire wasn't facing a full scale war against an enemy with a superior industrial base--and as Dax put it, even just a year into the war the UFP was still trying to rebuild its destroyed shipping yards while the Dominion had not only done that, but was running theirs at maximum capacity.

Despite the success of the Rebellion, I don't think that many critical ship yards were destroyed.

[Mith]

1, why'd you call me kor?

Because I felt like it... ;)
I thought it was Kor who wrote that for some reason, sorry... :)

2, the wikis statement is completely contradicted by the actual tv series and the later brutal rape the cardassians endured by a serious fed level power in ds9

TNG did not, IMO, paint the portrait of a minor skirmish to either the Feds or the Cardies.
TNG, from what I remember, paint the portrait of a bloody war, which the Feds would have surely won, yes, but which did more then just bloody their nose...
DS9 shows us what a militaristic Federation, one who got tired of getting their asses kicked by the Borg and any enemy of the week can do when they decide to, but TNG was still showing us the idealistic, non-war-mongering Federation, and so we are not talking about the same thing here...

At the time of TNG, the Federation was not the super ass-kicking power it became in DS9...

Ah yes, the Cardassian-Federation War...

Likely, their first war was the Cardassian Empire catching the UFP off-balanced because the Cardassians could focus more ships in one area than Starfleet could off-notice. Maxwell and O'Brian were likely part of the small group that did protect the area that the Cardassians had tried to invade. You can probably guess that for the first one or two months that Starfleet was scrambling to get as many ships as they could pull to fight what was likely a surprise attack by the Cardassians to expand their territory.

The 'bloody war' concept came because of an unprepared Starfleet was forced to fight against temporary superior numbers with only a few dozen ships while the Cardassians were probably employing hundreds of ships towards the effort. It then ruined the Cardassian Empire financially when the UFP brought the full weight of Starfleet against the Cardassians, who had probably at the time, hoped to have entrenched themselves in their new territory but had failed to do so thanks to the efforts of the small Starfleet force present during the invasion.

So yes, both sides had suffered heavily, but for different reasons. Starfleet had more important things to worry about, so making some trade for what amounted to a pittance of territory wasn't all that much of a worry in their mind (save the fucking Maquis) and it would have given the smaller, more nervous empire some breathing room against them.