Commentary on StarWarsStarTrek v. 2046

[User1601]

[quote="SpaceWizard"
That' apparently changed when they broke the time-barrier; consider TOS's "Whom Gods Destroy," where even an asylum's flimsy shields could stop the Enterprise's full phasers from making a ding in them; meanwhile in TMP, Earth's defenses were so amazing that they were even able to stop V'ger, if not for the information gained from the Enteprise's computer.

I am sure they said that the ships phasers could blast through the shields on the prison planet although the downside was that they would kill kirk ect and every other living thing on the planet doing so.[/quote]

Try finding it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXOcF7mc9Ss .

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That' apparently changed when they broke the time-barrier; consider TOS's "Whom Gods Destroy," where even an asylum's flimsy shields could stop the Enterprise's full phasers from making a ding in them; meanwhile in TMP, Earth's defenses were so amazing that they were even able to stop V'ger, if not for the information gained from the Enteprise's computer.

I am sure they said that the ships phasers could blast through the shields on the prison planet although the downside was that they would kill kirk ect and every other living thing on the planet doing so.

Try finding it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXOcF7mc9Ss .

09:55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXOcF7mc9Ss

[Mike DiCenso]

Correct. If the Enterprise had opened up with everything it had, it could have ripped through the Elba II Asylum shield, but only at the cost of destroying the dome and killing everyone inside it. They even reiterate this when the Enterprise is trying to cut through the weakest part of the shield on the opposite side of the planet from where the asylum dome is located!

Be that as it may, just the two main phaser banks of the Enterprise, a top of the line capital ship was not enough to cut through even the weakest part of the shield by themselves. Another thing to consider is that the Elba II shield was a single shield being projected from a single source on the planet... the asylum itself. Imagine what kind of planetary shield facilities would exist for a major member world, like Earth, Vulcan, Andor, ect.

But there's also another astounding thing to consider. The Constitution-class Enterprise's main phasers have to be pretty powerful considering that the U.S.S. Defiant in the Mirror Universe easily tanked shots with and without shields from the Mirror NX class and other starships, and we know that in the Prime Verse, the NX could manage 1-10 TJ per shot of the two main phase cannons. Now think about that. If the Elba shield could tank at least 1 TW per square meter, it would imply an enourmous power source that can be maintained for an indefinite period of time. Assuming that Elba II is just slightly smaller than Earth (Radius= 6,000 km), and that the shield was a ground-hugging affair, we would expect a surface area of about 4.524e14 m^2... the equivalent in TW since we are assuming 1 TW per square meter. Or to put it another way, that's 10,803,059,273.4 gigatons of tanking power for the total shield! This is from a single-source shield!
-Mike

[User1601]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXOcF7mc9Ss

Context: that was with regard to their hitting the Asulum dome, assuming they could cut through the force-field-- i.e. it wouldn't be safe to even attempt.

So Scotty then said they would try to cut through the shield at the weakest point, which was at the far side of the planet-- and they couldn't do it, even at full power.

If they couldn't cut through the weakest part of the shield, then obviously they couldn't cut through the strongest part directly over the asylum.

The purpose of that shield, meanwhile, was simply to keep people in prison and prevent rescue from the asylum itself-- not to protect the whole planet from a military strike; but ST base-shields are just so bad-ass, that they stopped military strikes even without trying!

Now if they could do that even without trying, then a full-out defense-system would be pretty much invulnerable against known weapons.

Correct. If the Enterprise had opened up with everything it had, it could have ripped through the Elba II Asylum shield, but only at the cost of destroying the dome and killing everyone inside it. They even reiterate this when the Enterprise is trying to cut through the weakest part of the shield on the opposite side of the planet from where the asylum dome is located!

No, it couldn't: They did open up with everything it had, and hit the shield at the weakest point with FULL POWER, and narrow-beam-- to no effect!
They try again: still, NO EFFECT; and obviously there was no point in trying further, since the shield was just too powerful.
Again, this was the weakest point; so if the did it over the asylum, then it would do nothing at all, and so Scotty's concerns of harming those inside it were entirely unnecessary.

Be that as it may, just the two main phaser banks of the Enterprise, a top of the line capital ship was not enough to cut through even the weakest part of the shield by themselves. Another thing to consider is that the Elba II shield was a single shield being projected from a single source on the planet... the asylum itself. Imagine what kind of planetary shield facilities would exist for a major member world, like Earth, Vulcan, Andor, ect.

As I said, it could hold off V'ger, as the novel indicated it could-- and definitely the Death Star.

But there's also another astounding thing to consider. The Constitution-class Enterprise's main phasers have to be pretty powerful considering that the U.S.S. Defiant in the Mirror Universe easily tanked shots with and without shields from the Mirror NX class and other starships, and we know that in the Prime Verse, the NX could manage 1-10 TJ per shot of the two main phase cannons. Now think about that. If the Elba shield could tank at least 1 TW per square meter, it would imply an enourmous power source that can be maintained for an indefinite period of time. Assuming that Elba II is just slightly smaller than Earth (Radius= 6,000 km), and that the shield was a ground-hugging affair, we would expect a surface area of about 4.524e14 m^2... the equivalent in TW since we are assuming 1 TW per square meter. Or to put it another way, that's 10,803,059,273.4 gigatons of tanking power for the total shield! This is from a single-source shield!
-Mike

Assuming it could withstand the same amount of force applied to every part of the shield at once, as applied to a little bit of it-- but there's no reason to make that assumption.
Rather, a planetary shield can simply spread a small bit of force over a larger area, like a battle-shield can stop a blade-- or deflect it; but if you applied a larger amount of energy, it could overcome the shield-generator. That's the purpose of a mace, or a war-hammer or battle-axe-- i.e. it's a bigger and heavier weapon, solely in order to break through shields and armor by applying more force-- since obviously you don't need that much force against someone who doesn't have armor or a shield, and so it would be just useless weight.

Obviously, a planet-sized shield requires a big honkin' generator-- easily more than an itty-bitty starship could produce; but NOTHING could generate enough power to counter that amount of energy, applied to every square inch of the planetary shield... short of a planet-sized warp-engine.

Now, the Death Star is "only" 120km in diameter, and only a small part of that was the power-generator-- which only used fusion; so it's entirely possible that Earth's defense-system would be able to deflect the Superlaser.

[Mike DiCenso]

They didn't open up with everything they had:

SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu?

SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott.

MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below?

SULU: Yes, sir.

We know from several episodes that the Enterprise has port, starboard, mid-ship, and aft phasers (the latter seen firing from her sister ship Defiant in ST:ENT''s "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part 2"). We also know that the ship can fire photon torpedoes, thus they did not use everything they had at their disposal to break through. The implication of all this is that even being on the far side of the planet and using full force would still destroy the asylum dome and kill everyone in it!
-Mike

[User1601]

They didn't open up with everything they had:

SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu?

SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott.

MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below?

SULU: Yes, sir.

We know from several episodes that the Enterprise has port, starboard, mid-ship, and aft phasers (the latter seen firing from her sister ship Defiant in ST:ENT''s "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part 2"). We also know that the ship can fire photon torpedoes, thus they did not use everything they had at their disposal to break through. The implication of all this is that even being on the far side of the planet and using full force would still destroy the asylum dome and kill everyone in it!
-Mike

No, it's not "implied," which means absolute certainty; it's not even suggested-- quite the opposite. What part of "full power," do you NOT understand?

The ship also can only generate so much power at once, i.e. they can't fire full-power in all directions at the same time. Rather, it's simply channeled to the phasers that are toward the enemy; it's not like a standard canon that fires with the same power, no matter how many at once; in that situation, the energy comes from the shells themselves, not the ship's engines.

They also obviously didn't use torpedoes-- and there's no reason to suggest that a torpedo would kill everyone from the opposite side of the planet; likewise, torps are variable-yield. So obviousl, the torpedoes simply couldn't do it.
Rather, planetary shields are just a LOT stronger than anything on a starship-- which stands to reason, since again size and mass cease to be a concern.

Likewise, Scotty never says they are absolutely able to blast through the shield-- he says "we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome."

That's a conditional statement, which doesn't mean they necessarily can do it-- just that if they COULD do it, then it would kill everyone.

But it turns out they couldn't, so the concern was needless.

[Admiral Breetai]

spacewizard just intimated UFP member worlds can alone hold off the DS and likely some back up too yes?

I can't wait to see SWST reaction to that it'll be like that angry german kid video only..he'll do something silly like publicly challenge you to a duel or some such

[User1601]

spacewizard just intimated UFP member worlds can alone hold off the DS and likely some back up too yes?


I can't wait to see SWST reaction to that it'll be like that angry german kid video only..he'll do something silly like publicly challenge you to a duel or some such

I certainly hope so, they're always good for a laugh... like the claim of the hyperwanker-reactors and the 38-figure Superlaser.

And the more you disprove them, the funnier they get.

I wanted to mention the V'ger example, above: in TMP, they make a point of V'ger reading the ship's computer regarding "Earth defenses--" which here is a dramatic device, ironically in this case called a "Chekov's Gun," which pertains to something that is only shown, when it will be used later.

And true to form, later we see that V'ger uses the information to render Earth-defenses "inoperative." This indicates that without that information from the ship's computers, V'ger couldn't have done it. (While this was mentioned in the TMP novel, I'm willing to accept that the novel was non-canon).

So if V'ger was more powerful than the DS-- which I claim that it was-- then Earth could hold off the DS.

However, I will also claim that this is nothing compared to a simple Trilithium warhead, which would destroy the sun and all the planets in any solar system, and no shields could stop that.

[Admiral Breetai]

this is gonna be funny

[User1601]

this is gonna be funny

I can hear the words "Trektard" and "Sun Crusher" already. :D

[Mike DiCenso]

No, it's not "implied," which means absolute certainty; it's not even suggested-- quite the opposite. What part of "full power," do you NOT understand?

The ship also can only generate so much power at once, i.e. they can't fire full-power in all directions at the same time. Rather, it's simply channeled to the phasers that are toward the enemy; it's not like a standard canon that fires with the same power, no matter how many at once; in that situation, the energy comes from the shells themselves, not the ship's engines.

We don't know that's the case. The phasers having the ability to fire in multiple directions from multiple emitters on a ship simultaneously has been long established in Trek. On top of that, they can fire photon torpedoes at the same time. At the very least "In a Mirror, Darkly" established this for the Constitution class when the Defiant destroys the Avenger.

They also obviously didn't use torpedoes-- and there's no reason to suggest that a torpedo would kill everyone from the opposite side of the planet; likewise, torps are variable-yield. So obviousl, the torpedoes simply couldn't do it.
Rather, planetary shields are just a LOT stronger than anything on a starship-- which stands to reason, since again size and mass cease to be a concern.

Yet we have the above dialong that states that they are adding in a margin to prevent the accidental killing of the people down on the planet suggests otherwise. Sulu's professional acknowlegement of McCoy's concern is proof of that.

Not using photon torpedoes, which have been since retroactively and clearly established as being able to be fired simultaneously with phasers shows that the Enterprise was carrying out the operation with at least some handicap.

Likewise, Scotty never says they are absolutely able to blast through the shield-- he says "we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome."

That's a conditional statement, which doesn't mean they necessarily can do it-- just that if they COULD do it, then it would kill everyone.

But it turns out they couldn't, so the concern was needless.

Again, it is a conditional based around the consequence that if they broke through the shield, then they would kill everyone on the planet. It's simple and straight forward. Sulu acknowleges McCoy in that there is a margin for the safety of the people in the asylum, and photon torpedoes can be fired at the same time as phasers, hence they did not use all possible force in breaking through, and they were clearly still concerned about harming their people in the dome even when on the other side of planet.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

And true to form, later we see that V'ger uses the information to render Earth-defenses "inoperative." This indicates that without that information from the ship's computers, V'ger couldn't have done it. (While this was mentioned in the TMP novel, I'm willing to accept that the novel was non-canon).

Actually, the ST:TMP novelization bit you are refering to is not what you claim. Kirk was wildly hoping that the combined firepower and shields of Earth and Luna would be enough to do something. From pages 226-7:

"Captain...." it was Chekov at the weapons station, his face taut and white. "Captain... all Earth defenses have just on inoperative!"

Chekov's words seemed to echo around the bridge and Kirk felt a stab of cold in his stomach.

"Confirm," said Uhura, her voice shaking. "I'm monitoring reports of forcefield power loss, computers shutting themselves down..."

Until now, there had been at least the hope that the sheer weight of Earth and Lunar fire-power and powerful forcefield protection might give Nogura bargaining power or at least some delay in which a better understanding could be worked out."

It is clear that all they had there was a hope for some kind of delay, not that Earth and Luna could indefinitely hold V'Ger off. Furthermore, V'Ger acted in a logical and efficent manner when dealing with any threat, no matter how weak it was. With the Klingons and later the Enterprise, it only used exactly as much force as it needed to get the job done, even when it clearly had the ability as discovered later to make plasma weapons hundreds of times more powerful than what was required to overwhelm a refit Constitution-class starship or a K'tinga.
-Mike

[User1601]

And true to form, later we see that V'ger uses the information to render Earth-defenses "inoperative." This indicates that without that information from the ship's computers, V'ger couldn't have done it. (While this was mentioned in the TMP novel, I'm willing to accept that the novel was non-canon).

Actually, the ST:TMP novelization bit you are refering to is not what you claim. Kirk was wildly hoping that the combined firepower and shields of Earth and Luna would be enough to do something. From pages 226-7:

"Captain...." it was Chekov at the weapons station, his face taut and white. "Captain... all Earth defenses have just on inoperative!"

Chekov's words seemed to echo around the bridge and Kirk felt a stab of cold in his stomach.

"Confirm," said Uhura, her voice shaking. "I'm monitoring reports of forcefield power loss, computers shutting themselves down..."

Until now, there had been at least the hope that the sheer weight of Earth and Lunar fire-power and powerful forcefield protection might give Nogura bargaining power or at least some delay in which a better understanding could be worked out."

It is clear that all they had there was a hope for some kind of delay, not that Earth and Luna could indefinitely hold V'Ger off. Furthermore, V'Ger acted in a logical and efficent manner when dealing with any threat, no matter how weak it was.

Yeah, I never said "indefinitely," however the point is the same: i.e. that after Kirk learned what he did about V'ger, he calculated that Earth's defenses could hold off V'ger for some time, or at least give some bargaining-power. I think we can agree that Kirk had enough knowledge to be able to make a reliable guess about that-- particularly since in the novel, he managed to get a message through to Earth about V'ger, and inform Starfleet about it.

Meanwhile in contrast, the DS doesn't have the ability to keep up a non-stop barrage like V'ger did with its 12-power forcefield etc; rather, it took about a day to generate enough power to destroy a single planet-- or at least a day to recharge after doing so.

If Earth could hold off the DS for a day, that would be a considerable benefit while Starfleet attacked-- i.e. it wouldn't be much of a threat if it couldn't destroy planets!

With the Klingons and later the Enterprise, it only used exactly as much force as it needed to get the job done, even when it clearly had the ability as discovered later to make plasma weapons hundreds of times more powerful than what was required to overwhelm a refit Constitution-class starship or a K'tinga.
-Mike

The Enterprise survived V'ger's first attack, so obviously V'ger miscalculated.
In any event, the point is that V'ger had enough force to destroy starships, but Earth was a differnt story; as stated above, a planet can put up a much stronger defense than a starship, since size and mass are not a factor: meanwhile they're definitely a factor in a starship, and so defenses are a secondary consideration and must be strategically compromised.

[User1601]

No, it's not "implied," which means absolute certainty; it's not even suggested-- quite the opposite. What part of "full power," do you NOT understand?

The ship also can only generate so much power at once, i.e. they can't fire full-power in all directions at the same time. Rather, it's simply channeled to the phasers that are toward the enemy; it's not like a standard canon that fires with the same power, no matter how many at once; in that situation, the energy comes from the shells themselves, not the ship's engines.

We don't know that's the case. The phasers having the ability to fire in multiple directions from multiple emitters on a ship simultaneously has been long established in Trek.

Not at full power to all of them. And anyway, how can they hit a single target while firing in different directions???
Strange argument.

On top of that, they can fire photon torpedoes at the same time. At the very least "In a Mirror, Darkly" established this for the Constitution class when the Defiant destroys the Avenger.

That's prequel-stuff, we never saw it in TOS.

They also obviously didn't use torpedoes-- and there's no reason to suggest that a torpedo would kill everyone from the opposite side of the planet; likewise, torps are variable-yield. So obviousl, the torpedoes simply couldn't do it.
Rather, planetary shields are just a LOT stronger than anything on a starship-- which stands to reason, since again size and mass cease to be a concern.

Yet we have the above dialong that states that they are adding in a margin to prevent the accidental killing of the people down on the planet suggests otherwise. Sulu's professional acknowlegement of McCoy's concern is proof of that.

Yeah, it could have something to do with the PLANET being between the Enterprise and the asylum. So even with full power, it couldn't hurt the asylum IF it blasted through the shield-- the Enterprise isn't the Death Star, it wasn't going to destroy the planet.

Not using photon torpedoes, which have been since retroactively and clearly established as being able to be fired simultaneously with phasers shows that the Enterprise was carrying out the operation with at least some handicap.

Yeah, Brannon Braga was never much of a stickler for consistency. Again, that's prequel-pap: when TOS was made, Gene Roddenberry obviously didn't consider Braga's possible revisionisms 30 years later. Otherwise, and we NEVER saw phasers and photon torpedoes used simultaneously in TOS, so there's no reason to claim it in an argument regarding a TOS episode.

Likewise, Scotty never says they are absolutely able to blast through the shield-- he says "we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome."

That's a conditional statement, which doesn't mean they necessarily can do it-- just that if they COULD do it, then it would kill everyone.

But it turns out they couldn't, so the concern was needless.

Again, it is a conditional based around the consequence that if they broke through the shield, then they would kill everyone on the planet.

"Everyone on the planet" was inside the asylum, so it's kind of redundant that if they fired through the shield directly over the asylum, they'd kill "everyone on the planet;" since it would obviously destroy the asylum as well.

But once they went to the other side of the planet, then it's not like they'd destroy the planet itself, or even the surface; there was simply no one there, except on the direct opposite side of the planet. So the only danger was from heat and debris-- which, while considerable, still wouldn't be much of a threat to the opposite side of the planet inside an airtight dome.

It's simple and straight forward. Sulu acknowleges McCoy in that there is a margin for the safety of the people in the asylum, and photon torpedoes can be fired at the same time as phasers, hence they did not use all possible force in breaking through, and they were clearly still concerned about harming their people in the dome even when on the other side of planet.
-Mike

Sure-- again, "retroactively" ROTFLMAO

[Picard]

You are both wrong. Phasers at full power failed to penetrate shield; but photon torpedoes would have penetrated shield, althought collateral damage would be enough to cause unintentional execution of GO24 on planet. Or at least it is how I interpreted episode.