SDN: Industrial Capacity and Territorial Holdings

[l33telboi]

I was just going through Wong's page on SW vs. ST for the umpteenth time, and there was now (as always) quite a few errors I spot on each page. So, I was thinking about starting a little thread that would point out those errors and 'correct' the page, as it were.

And why not start with the first of those topics, labeled "Industrial Capacity and Territorial Holdings".

You can comment on the pages dealing with both the Empire and Federation.

Why and how are those two assessments wrong? And yes, I realize the industrial capabilities in regards to both have been discussed at length, but this is more of a thread that deals with those two pages specifically.

[Praeothmin]

Well, for starters, the size of the Empire and the SW Galaxy.
Once again, we witness the "cherry-picking" method which many Warsies are so fond of.
He uses quotes from ANH's novel when it pleases him, but ignores other relevant quotes from the same source when they contradict his conclusions.

For example, the size of the SW galaxy.
The ANH novel specifically states (WILGA brought this up a few months back) that the SW galaxy is a modest-sized one.
Our very own Milky Way, at around 100 000 LY across, contains from 100 to 400 Billion stars, is not a modest-sized galaxy.
It is in fact a large galaxy.
Average-sized galaxies are around 15 to 30 thousands LY accross, not 100.

(see here):
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a ... 1205a.html

A modest sized galaxy could easily contain the million star system described in ANH (both the novel and the movie I believe).

Also, nothing indicates that each and every one of these systems contain intelligent life.
They could simply indicate territory size.
In fact, all the movies seem to indicate that the SW galaxy doesn't have that many different races, if we judge by the senate chambers, and by the fact that in AotC, 10 000 systems going to the other side would mean a great deal in this conflict.

Even if we believed the 12 million inhabited star system quote from Dark Empire number 3, the vast majority could be small colonies, which would actually make sense.
In an Empire spanning 1 to 12 million systems, people will need ressources, so mining colonies, with only a few hundred to a few thousand people, will account for the vast majority of these systems.
And, as Warsies like to point out so much, the SW galaxy has great use for droids, so even a mining colony could be run by just a few people (the lead programmer, and the people in charge of droid and machinery maintenance).

Also, if their galaxy was the size of ours, having only 1 to 12 million systems would mean that for a galactic-spanning organization, they actually cover very little of their territory.


Concerning the size of the Federation, once again, cherry-picking.
The Federation, as of FC, has 150 member worlds, but where Wong assumes more sparsely colonized planets, we know for a fact, that as early as TOS (when the member world count was much lower), the Federation was spread out at over 1000 systems and more.
And we can also assume that there are many unknow colonies even in the Federation (after all, how could someone logically scan every planet within an 8000 LY distance from one another?).

And, since the SW galaxy is a modest sized one (ANH novel), how much bigger from the Federation is it?

Anyway, these are my two cents on the subject.

[l33telboi]

Also, nothing indicates that each and every one of these systems contain intelligent life.
They could simply indicate territory size.
In fact, all the movies seem to indicate that the SW galaxy doesn't have that many different races, if we judge by the senate chambers, and by the fact that in AotC, 10 000 systems going to the other side would mean a great deal in this conflict.

Here's something from the Attack of the Clones novelization that I found interesting in relation to this:

In her heart, Padmé remained steadfast that she had to work defeat the creation of this army. The Republic was built on tolerance. It was a vast network of tens of thousands of systems, and even more species, each with a distinct perspective. The only element they shared was tolerance—tolerance of one another. The creation of an army might prove unsettling, even threatening, to so many of those systems and species, beings far removed from the great city-planet of Coruscant.

The interior of the building was no less vast and impressive, its gigantic rotunda encircled, row upon row, by the floating platforms of the many Senators of the Republic, representing the great majority of the galaxy’s inhabitable worlds. A significant number of those platforms stood empty now, because of the separatist movement. Several thousand systems had joined in with Count Dooku over the last couple of years to secede from a Republic that had, in their eyes, grown too ponderous to be effective, a claim that even the staunchest supporters of the Republic could not completely dispute.

The Republic is comprised of “tens of thousands of systems”, and those hold the majority of the galaxy’s inhabitable worlds.

Even if we believed the 12 million inhabited star system quote from Dark Empire number 3, the vast majority could be small colonies, which would actually make sense.

From the looks of it, I'd say it's more a case of the Empire controlling a million systems while the galaxy at large has 12 million inhabited systems.

Concerning the size of the Federation, once again, cherry-picking.
The Federation, as of FC, has 150 member worlds, but where Wong assumes more sparsely colonized planets, we know for a fact, that as early as TOS (when the member world count was much lower), the Federation was spread out at over 1000 systems and more.

It's also worth comparing 150 worlds with the 900 billion dead estimate given in DS9. If there were just 150 worlds, then they would all be quite densely populated.

[Mike DiCenso]

The Republic is comprised of “tens of thousands of systems”, and those hold the majority of the galaxy’s inhabitable worlds.

Interesting quote there. I knew about the TPM quote that stated the Republic was 100,000 strong, and the tens of thousands mentioned in the AoTC quote would definitely support that, and it would make sense given at this point that several thousand systems have already gone over to the Seperatists, and another 10,000 more are expected to follow.

From the looks of it, I'd say it's more a case of the Empire controlling a million systems while the galaxy at large has 12 million inhabited systems.

I still consider the Empire controlling a million systems to be highly generous in light of the Republic having several tens of thousands of planets under their control. If we take the movie more seriously with the quote about the ten thousand systems being sufficent to sunder the Republic in half, then conservatively we would be looking at only20 to 25 thousand systems under Republic control.

Concerning the size of the Federation, once again, cherry-picking.
The Federation, as of FC, has 150 member worlds, but where Wong assumes more sparsely colonized planets, we know for a fact, that as early as TOS (when the member world count was much lower), the Federation was spread out at over 1000 systems and more.

It's also worth comparing 150 worlds with the 900 billion dead estimate given in DS9. If there were just 150 worlds, then they would all be quite densely populated.

That would actually divide out into about a 6 billion per planet average. That's a rather modest number, comparable to Earth's current real-world population. On the other hand, if you look at the Jack Pack's estimate for Federation casulties in context, they were also assuming a sufficently surviving additional number of people who would rise up against the Dominion and over throw it. So that would up the per planet average considerably, if there were only 150 planets as a whole in the Federation. In addition, we have to keep in mind that there are other kinds of status for planets in the Federation besides being either a member or a colony; there are the associate memebers, as mentioned in ST:Insurrection and a variety of protectorate planets with primitve civilizations. All of these drive up the numbers.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Even if we believed the 12 million inhabited star system quote from Dark Empire number 3, the vast majority could be small colonies, which would actually make sense.
In an Empire spanning 1 to 12 million systems, people will need ressources, so mining colonies, with only a few hundred to a few thousand people, will account for the vast majority of these systems.

In Vector Prime, the only thing you could find and call a habitat on the perfectly and naturally inhabitable planet Belkadan, part of the Dalonbian sector in the Outer Rim, was the ExGal-4 station and its more than a dozen people in it.

More puzzling, and in relation to l33t's post, is Jocasta Nu's words in AOTC.
Maybe Vympel is reading, or not, but it's been both interesting and tiring to play the devil's advocate and try to explain the EU's claim of a vastly uncharted section of the galaxy (and when I say vast, it is vast), when AOTC alone, movie and novelization, run this concept into the dirt. In conjunction with ANH, what we see from the higher canon sources, is:

- It's a modest sized galaxy, which regarding the samples we can study nowadays, means it's certainly not anywhere close to 100,000 LY.
- The Republic, just before the Clone Wars, held ten thousand systems. To fit with the film, we would have to consider that half the Senate was empty, with around +- 10K systems affiliated to the Separatists (with the possibility of a few seceding to remain neutral and fully independant).
- The Republic's Senate represent most of the galaxy's inhabitable worlds (also note that the pods representing likely systems in the Senate, several thousands of them, remained empty after joining Dooku's Separatists). So most of these inhabitable worlds were spread throughout those 10K systems. Thus also hilighting how most of the galaxy was charted and explored.
- Jocasta Nu considers that if a world is not listed in the Jedi archives, it does not exist.

You'll notice that to make this fit with the EU, you have to modify data a lot, and imply uncited contexts in relation to the citations.

For example, "the great majority of the galaxy’s inhabitable worlds" should become "the great majority of the galaxy’s known inhabitable worlds"...

[Mr. Oragahn]

That would actually divide out into about a 6 billion per planet average. That's a rather modest number, comparable to Earth's current real-world population.
So that would up the per planet average considerably, if there were only 150 planets as a whole in the Federation.

Of course, since there's no real reason to believe most of the worlds would be anywhere near Earth, or even a quarter of Earth, it's actually a high number.

On the other hand, if you look at the Jack Pack's estimate for Federation casulties in context, they were also assuming a sufficently surviving additional number of people who would rise up against the Dominion and over throw it.

Depends. If a few billions survive, and governments start massive conscriptions in order to promote survival, since it's nothing more than a question of life or death at this point, a great militarization of even such low numbers would suffice to provide a great many troops.
I indeed don't think Fed and allies worlds would continue to follow that rather train of life where only a minuscule fraction of their people are engaged in a military career, when the odds have become such that what waits for you is either tyranny, slavery or pure extinction.

In addition, we have to keep in mind that there are other kinds of status for planets in the Federation besides being either a member or a colony; there are the associate memebers, as mentioned in ST:Insurrection and a variety of protectorate planets with primitve civilizations. All of these drive up the numbers.
-Mike

Just how up is the question though.

[Mike DiCenso]

That would actually divide out into about a 6 billion per planet average. That's a rather modest number, comparable to Earth's current real-world population.
So that would up the per planet average considerably, if there were only 150 planets as a whole in the Federation.

Of course, since there's no real reason to believe most of the worlds would be anywhere near Earth, or even a quarter of Earth, it's actually a high number.

On the other hand, if you look at the Jack Pack's estimate for Federation casualties in context, they were also assuming a sufficiently surviving additional number of people who would rise up against the Dominion and over throw it.

Depends. If a few billions survive, and governments start massive conscriptions in order to promote survival, since it's nothing more than a question of life or death at this point, a great militarization of even such low numbers would suffice to provide a great many troops.
I indeed don't think Fed and allies worlds would continue to follow that rather train of life where only a minuscule fraction of their people are engaged in a military career, when the odds have become such that what waits for you is either tyranny, slavery or pure extinction.

I think you misunderstand. Here is Bashir's summary of what was expected to happen:


If we fight, we'll take over nine
hundred billion casualties. If we
surrender, no one dies. Either
way we're in for five generations
of Dominion rule.

Eventually a rebellion will form,
centered on Earth. It'll start to
spread, and within another
generation, it'll succeed in
overthrowing the Dominion. The
Alpha Quadrant will unite in a
new, stronger Federation that'll
last thousands of years.

Since we can't win, why not
surrender and save as many lives
as we can?

He's not talking about a sudden conscription for survival by a few billion. The Federation gets conquered, period. There is enough people left over that within 6 generations (approximately 150 years) they can rise up and overthrow the Dominion. That suggests considerably more than a few billion survivors. Tens of billions, at the very least.

In addition, we have to keep in mind that there are other kinds of status for planets in the Federation besides being either a member or a colony; there are the associate memebers, as mentioned in ST:Insurrection and a variety of protectorate planets with primitive civilizations. All of these drive up the numbers.
-Mike

Just how up is the question though.

Let's say one trillion is the total population in the Federation, then divide that by a billion, we would have 1,000 planets average. However, Kirk did tell Cochrane that they were already on a thousand planets and "spreading out", so that has to be a lower number since that takes place in the 2260s (this after more than 100 years of expansion since the founding of the Federation in 2161), and there should be considerably more planets under the Federation by the 2360s through 2380s. So realistically, more than 150 full member planets, plus at least several thousand more associate member, colonies, and protectorate worlds
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Oragahn, "tens of thousands", not "ten thousand".

[Praeothmin]

Oragahn, "tens of thousands", not "ten thousand".

Yeah, it couldn't be ten thousand systems, because ten thousand more systems were rady to go over to the Separatists, which is what would have split the Republic in two...

So they have to have way more then 20-25 thousand systems.

[The Corporal]

Was his wacko friend actually talking about Federation casualties or the Alliance as a whole? Pardon the question but I don't recall the episode in any detail and the above quote doesn't really make it clear.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think it is fairly obvious that the casualty numbers are being stated in terms of the Federation only. However, even if we were to take your idea that it also included allies, it would only include the Klingons as the Romulans did not get involved until several months later in "In a Pale Moon Light".
-Mike

[Mith]

My view on the Empire is that its a sleeping giant. Their industry may be possible, but the government in charge is often not competent enough to create such a military power to produce millions of ships. Nor of course, is there a reason to believe that they would.

Fuel Expenses
Mantaining a fleet is expensive, even for massive power houses like the Empire. No one is going to have millions of starships around when there isn't anything to fight. Yeah, there were the rebels...but their fleet consisted of a dozen or so ships...laughable by even the 23rd century UFP powers...hell, that would probably be only a threat to the 22nd century Earth Starfleet. In other words, that isn't really a true navy, so having a massive fleet is simply absurd. Second, there isn't any indication that ISDs or VSDs often lord over planets to force them in line (we see none of these for Alderaan). This leads me to suspect that only a few trouble maker worlds are inhabited, like when Vader said he'd regret having to leave some storm troopers in Bespin if Lando didn't stop complaining. Now, Bespin was just floating city used by bandits, smugglers, and the like. Surely a troublesome planet would get 1-3 starships sitting in orbit. If trouble started springing up, the ships would launch fighters and landing shuttles to beat down the problem.

In fact, the lack of a real military threat would cause the Empire to grow a bit lax and probably keep most ships docked or mothballed until they were needed.

Officers/Troopers
In order to run a ship, you need someone there doing it. At the very least, you'd need fifty to eighty people per ship. Given that the Clone Army had only two million and were considered large, as was the Droid Army, this suggests that such numbers are hard to obtain. Now, surely, the Empire could increase its numbers fairly easily to somewhere closer to the droid army in twenty years, but it probably wouldn't be for the ships themselves, but for occupation forces, starbases, and other things like that.

In order to go from about 25,000 starships to millions, you need to train people to use them and I somewhat doubt that hundreds of millions of former repressed civilians getting their hands on military technology is a no-no.

Construction
In order to build a massive fleet, you need them to be built first. Now, the Clone Wars showed us that they were deploying Venators not too long after it started. Assuming they have at least 80 clones per ship for the purpose of a Venator, that's 25,000 cruisers. At first glance that might seem to suggest 12,500 cruisers built a year, but this is doubtful, more likely a great deal of the ships were already built beforehand, but 25,000 starships in ten years is impressive. That would suggest that 2,500 starships were built per year by a private contracting group.

This isn't too hard to believe, given a large enough industry, but it shouldn't be much more impressive than what the UFP could do...afterall, Voyager built the Delta Flyer in three days. Imagine what a proper station could do with the right materials and a proper crew.

All in all, I would say that while it is possible for the Empire to start storming up massive fleet power, they would be straining their rather laid back industry.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

I have seen the million system number for the Empire many times. Many of these systems have multiple inhabitable worlds. Note, not inhabited, but inhabitable. I have never found a consistent number inhabited worlds. Now, the Empire does not include the Unknown Regions, which make up roughly one fifth of the galaxy.

Millions of ships? When was it ever stated that the Empire had millions of ships? In Timothy Zahn's Specter of Past, It is stated that at it's height, The Empire had 25000 SDs.

[Estrecca]

Millions of ships? When was it ever stated that the Empire had millions of ships? In Timothy Zahn's Specter of Past, It is stated that at it's height, The Empire had 25000 SDs.

ROTS ICS states that there are millions of warships involved in the Outer Rim campaigns (the main theater of operations at this point for both sides in the Clone Wars) as of the battle of Coruscant.

Also, it is widely accepted among pro-Wars debators that the existence of the Death Stars makes indisputable the presence of enough industrial output to build millions of warships (relatively simple volumetric calculations give even the DSI a volume equal to millions of ISDs).

Finally, IIRC, WEG wrote an OOB for a representative sector that puts the full size of the Imperial military (spanning thousands of such sector commands) into the millions, although it should be noted that ISDs usually are the biggest things in a sector fleet and most of those millions are Dreadnoughts, Nebulons, Carracks and such.

[Praeothmin]

ROTS ICS states that there are millions of warships involved in the Outer Rim campaigns (the main theater of operations at this point for both sides in the Clone Wars) as of the battle of Coruscant.
...although it should be noted that ISDs usually are the biggest things in a sector fleet and most of those millions are Dreadnoughts, Nebulons, Carracks and such.

But nothing says that those millions of warships are all the size of Venators.
The majority could be the size of the Corellian Corvettes.l
Look at today's navies, the bigger ships aren't composing the majority of the fleets.
And as you stated, the majority of the ships in the Empire's navy aren't the bigger ones.

Also, it is widely accepted among pro-Wars debators that the existence of the Death Stars makes indisputable the presence of enough industrial output to build millions of warships (relatively simple volumetric calculations give even the DSI a volume equal to millions of ISDs).

Which they put into that single station, thus denying them the possibility of building those millions of ships...