Eras of the "Great Debate"

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Khas
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Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Khas » Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:58 pm

So, seeing how long the Trek-vs-Wars debate lasted until The Last Jedi put the final nails in the coffin, I've decided to look back on it, and how the overall culture surrounding it evolved. And so far, I've noticed that there were seven distinct eras, so to speak. They are:

The Early Days (1995 to 1997)
The Golden Age (1997 to 2002)
The Dark Times (2002 to 2006)
The Time of Questioning (2006 to 2010)
The Beginning of the End (2010 to 2014)
The Final Chapters (2014 to 2018)
The Aftermath (2018 to Today)

Does this list seem accurate to you guys?

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:05 pm

The Early Days of the USENET debates was the Golden Age, because things were more balanced. Mike Wong's influence wasn't there yet, and the hordes of Warsie cultists hadn't found their way to the debates yet. 1997-1998 was when things started to take a turn for the worse, with Wong actively driving good people like Graham Kennedy from the debates with early cancel culture and doxxing, and by 2002 with Stardestroyer.Net and the cult in full force, the Dark Times had openly arrived.

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by 2046 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:19 pm

The era markings seem too clean with their four year chunks. Some may relate to events (e.g. we can tie 2014 to the Disney sale), but I'd be curious about delineations and more thorough blurb definitions.

You can also take things back a ways further. I've seen USENet posts on the stuff as far back as 1985, per my own little historical research here:

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWintro.html

You could thus have 1985 to 199x as the prehistoric era of random debates spread around, growing in frequency and vigor. Somewhere in there some of the oldest arguments form, with the formation of ASVS in 1997 on as when things really kick off in earnest, perhaps.

Me, personally, I don't feel the topic is over, per se. Oh, the fact that both properties are wrecked now, fundamentally unanalyzable mish-mashes of self-contradiction certainly doesn't help . . . but the original universes remain. There's still a ton I'd love to dig in to, given the time, and there remains a currentness to it ... I've even seen EU Completists running amok just recently, like Japanese soldiers in the 1950s thinking World War II is still a thing.

That said, the simple fact is that while details and holdouts remain, the final victor has been known for a long time. In that sense, a historian's approach is not a bad idea.

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Picard578 » Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:53 pm

I don't think we will be seeing any more major Star Trek vs Star Wars debate, beyond normal VS debates on forums. I mean, firstly, the prequels and then the Clone Wars had basically put in the nail into the coffin of Star Wars biggatons. And then both IPs got ruined by Marxist SJWs pushing their agenda, meaning that there is nothing in new Star Trek / Star Wars that would draw in the fresh blood, so to speak, much less people passionate enough to debate comparisons.

Fandoms won't die completely, old movies and series are still there, but they will enter the era of hibernation.

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Khas » Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:20 pm

Eh, given what I've seen and heard, they're both at least trying to un-fuck themselves from the SJW shit. I'd say Star Trek is having better luck with that, with Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds, at least.

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Picard578 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:24 pm

Khas wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:20 pm
Eh, given what I've seen and heard, they're both at least trying to un-fuck themselves from the SJW shit. I'd say Star Trek is having better luck with that, with Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds, at least.
Huh, so they are worth watching? I haven't watched it yet; was too busy watching the Russian Treasure Island:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKRG7PF73UA

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by 2046 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:35 pm

Moved to "SciFights Kaput" thread here:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =4&t=47122
Last edited by 2046 on Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Khas » Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:14 pm

Huh. Guess this means I'll have to shut down the SciFights subforum on ASVS, then. There IS a plan to revitalize ASVS, but not so much as a "Versus" site. We've decided to pay tribute to the Old Debate with a big, collaborative Trek/Wars crossover story, like what TFC used to have, just... without the Fur.

Now, as for a historian's approach to the Old Debate... how would you guys list the eras of it?

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by 2046 » Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:01 am

Here's one possible view . . .

Civil Unrest: The Early Days (1985 to 1995)

Cavalry Charges: The Usenet Mess (1995 to 1997)
- Referring to all the crosspostings to Trek and Wars groups. This was the era where many early arguments were generated, good and bad.

Total War, Domination, and Insurgency: ASVS and the Early Web (1997 to 2001)
- The name refers to the effective loss of the conflict by the Pro-ST side, as per assorted comments by "Lord Edam" et al., as well as the start of doxxings and such by Pro-SW forces.

To The Deathwish: The Forum Era (2002-2007)
- The name refers to the standardization of doxxing and threats as a debate technique by Pro-SW forces. 2002 was a high watermark for them, given that one of them was officially published in a Star Wars children's book after they worked together to create numbers that would seem stronger than Trek's. However, their "smashmouth" policies finally resulted in the Taliban fiasco of 2006. Meanwhile, their dominance was crumbling as Pro-ST forces undercut their arguments with vigor, denying them the final victory they thought they'd achieve with publication, even as the Trek franchise came to an ignominious end. SFJ began in 2007.

The Slow Collapse: From TCW to Legends (2008-2014)
- Shunned after the Taliban fiasco and with their published numbers ridiculed, Pro-SW arguments collapsed further and further with every new Star Wars work by Lucas. Finally came the Disney sale and the official dismissal of the EU.

Aftermath (2015-2022)

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:57 am

Khas wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:20 pm
Eh, given what I've seen and heard, they're both at least trying to un-fuck themselves from the SJW shit. I'd say Star Trek is having better luck with that, with Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds, at least.
Star Trek: Prodigy is turning out to be surprisingly good, and the animation is often very gorgeously rendered.

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:54 am

2046 wrote:It's all gone.

The YouTube videos are deleted.
Scifights.net is down.
His Twitter is mostly just him still doing that creepy-simping at semi-famous women and making unusually simpleton-grade comments. It's only interesting in that, like Wayne Poe before him, he seems to have transitioned toward goofy alien UFO and paranormal stuff. (The Warsie->Wacko-Paranormal-Ufologist pipeline is inadequately studied.)
At this point any further detailed discussion on Scifights should be taken to the appropriate forum and thread or a new thread started.
-Mike

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Re: Eras of the "Great Debate"

Post by 2046 » Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:32 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:54 am
At this point any further detailed discussion on Scifights should be taken to the appropriate forum and thread or a new thread started.
-Mike
That's true. I've moved the post to "Other Websites".

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