Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

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Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by Khas » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:32 pm

So, in "Rising Malevolence", General Grievous' tactical display clearly shows a Keldon-class starship:

Image

Which got me thinking.... How WOULD the Clone Wars have progressed if the Cardassians (as of, say, 2370) got involved? Who would they side with? Would Palpatine's plot be exposed earlier? What else would change?

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by 2046 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:53 am

That's so cool. Nice catch!

The Cardassians . . . even a single Keldon . . . would tremendously upset the balance of power if involved. The issue of who they'd support is complicated, however. Per Dooku's ruminations the goal was an "Empire of Man", i.e. humans. The question is whether Palps would put that on hold in favor of winning, with the hopes of getting the tech, or try to fight it out with a Separatist movement capable of Star Trek-level frakkery.

The question is, was Hitler-level nuts (inasmuch as he had an alliance with the Soviets basically done, then attacked them because, despite all the ideological similarities, they were somehow Jewish and thus bad)?

I doubt he was quite that nuts. I think he'd have shelved the racism at least long enough to get closer to the ubertech, just as he shelved it when keeping the horned dude around and so on. As soon as he could swing boarding and running the ship, he'd try to Force choke the lot of them, of course, but until then he'd have let them have their way with Dooku if it got him access to their systems.

That said, the Cardassians might have a preference, but it's hard to say what it might've been. They don't much care for anyone not-them, so it might come down to which side was more easily exploited or had more to offer. Besides the Republic going broke on clones, it's hard to say, but the Seppies do get a fighting chance here.

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by 2046 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:28 pm

Incidentally, as I hint in the Twitter thread I posted of this, there is irony in that the Malevolence arc shows Republic cruisers unable to hit a relatively stationary mega-ship while showing a Cardassian ship known to be able to pop Maquis fighters with relative ease.

https://twitter.com/STvSW/status/117095 ... 97056?s=20

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by Darth Spock » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:12 pm

Nice, I always liked it when SW/ST would throw ship cameos in each others films, but was not aware of this one. For as cunning as they are though, I think Palpatine has more in common with the Dominion in terms of skulduggery and manipulation, and I imagine he would most likely be the one pulling the Cardies' strings as opposed to the other way around. Then again that didn't end well for the Dominion either.... One thing the Cards do appear to have a massive and undeniable advantage in is chemical truth agents. Leia's special Jedi lineage may have given her special resistance to the "mind probe" in ANH, but since Disney, the First Order's failure to extract information from Poe tell's me they haven't developed such things to the same level as in the Alpha Quadrant. Or am I remembering wrong? I thought Picard was drained dry pretty quick, but kept in torture because they enjoyed breaking him?
2046 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:28 pm
Incidentally, as I hint in the Twitter thread I posted of this, there is irony in that the Malevolence arc shows Republic cruisers unable to hit a relatively stationary mega-ship while showing a Cardassian ship known to be able to pop Maquis fighters with relative ease.

https://twitter.com/STvSW/status/117095 ... 97056?s=20
Uhm, when did that happen again? I was just about to say that if anything in pre-Discovery 'Trek supported the notion of Star Wars grade fighters being a threat in the 'Trek universe, it would be the Cardassians:

TNG S:7E:24 "Preemptive Strike" I know disruptors aren't known for their flak bursts, but those explosions are coming from empty space. At least one of them ( 1:28-1:29 ) shows the beam passing in the fore of a not distant fighter, but the explosion is behind it as it passes, so that wasn't a strike on something too distant to be seen either. Many of the other near misses appear to be just that. Even if every beam is really striking some distant target, then at that rate the Maquis would have to have committed a hundred fighters or so to the meat grinder just to cripple that one ship. Unlikely under the circumstances. In fairness, Trekcore seems to slow those things down so they're easier to compare, but I couldn't find another video. But even at normal speed they weren't outperforming your average SW fighter maneuvering wise.

And or course there's DS9 S:6E:6 "Sacrifice of Angels". Better, but it still involved fighters about the size of the Millennium Falcon flying relatively straight right in front of a massive enemy fleet at sub mach speeds and appearing to incur about 50% losses at most. Better than Disney Star Wars (especially the Rebels cartoon), but not by that much.

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by 2046 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm

Darth Spock wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:12 pm
Uhm, when did that happen again? I was just about to say that if anything in pre-Discovery 'Trek supported the notion of Star Wars grade fighters being a threat in the 'Trek universe, it would be the Cardassians:

TNG S:7E:24 "Preemptive Strike" I know disruptors aren't known for their flak bursts, but those explosions are coming from empty space.
You basically are arguing for flak bursts, then.
At least one of them ( 1:28-1:29 ) shows the beam passing in the fore of a not distant fighter, but the explosion is behind it as it passes, so that wasn't a strike on something too distant to be seen either.
The one at the upper left? Given how little the little red wingtip lights are visible, and contrasting that with other scenes of that type of vessel that show them clearly in the front view, plus the fact they seem to get smaller as they go, we can presume those vessels are flying away from the Galor. Even then, however, if the beam was in front of the vessel and the explosion behind, the beam would've basically had to curve around the ship to get to the explosion, at the end. I don't think you can firmly declare the beam to be in front of the ship, in such a circumstance. The beam glow may be overlapping the ship pixels on 'border' areas of the ship, or some other such thing . . . the alternative is mere compositing error. Clearly the explosion is behind it, however.
Many of the other near misses appear to be just that. Even if every beam is really striking some distant target, then at that rate the Maquis would have to have committed a hundred fighters or so to the meat grinder just to cripple that one ship. Unlikely under the circumstances.
Going up against a Galor *at all* is unlikely. The Maquis are a smaller force with smaller, less well-protected individual vessels. They cannot sustain losses yet even a massed attack against a large Cardassian warship will naturally entail them.
But even at normal speed they weren't outperforming your average SW fighter maneuvering wise.
This is definitely true. They were rather lazily swarming the Cardassian ship.
And or course there's DS9 S:6E:6 "Sacrifice of Angels". Better, but it still involved fighters about the size of the Millennium Falcon flying relatively straight right in front of a massive enemy fleet at sub mach speeds and appearing to incur about 50% losses at most. Better than Disney Star Wars (especially the Rebels cartoon), but not by that much.
We're counting a near-total lack of fire as inability? I mean, about fifty seconds in on that video a flight of Hidekis roll right past the Defiant and her escorting Mirandas. Were they mutually unable to attack one another due to targeting inability? Of course not.

Firing rate and such is a different story. In the Preemptive Strike example I'm not too concerned about the firing rate of the damaged Galor . . . it isn't bad. I'll never really know why there wasn't massed fleet fire in the SoA case, however, with the sky utterly lousy with beams. Evidently folks were trying to avoid over-exertion, however odd that sounds, but that's about all we can guess.

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by Darth Spock » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:06 am

2046 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm
You basically are arguing for flak bursts, then.
Not my first choice in Star Trek, but remembering the proximity blasts from Balance of Terror, I wouldn't completely disregard the idea either. Having said that....
The one at the upper left? Given how little the little red wingtip lights are visible, and contrasting that with other scenes of that type of vessel that show them clearly in the front view, plus the fact they seem to get smaller as they go, we can presume those vessels are flying away from the Galor. Even then, however, if the beam was in front of the vessel and the explosion behind, the beam would've basically had to curve around the ship to get to the explosion, at the end. I don't think you can firmly declare the beam to be in front of the ship, in such a circumstance. The beam glow may be overlapping the ship pixels on 'border' areas of the ship, or some other such thing . . . the alternative is mere compositing error. Clearly the explosion is behind it, however.
Given the size of the ship in question and the apparent angles, I had my doubts, but after checking closer I see another vessel undeniably in the fore of the beam also appears to be "washed out" by the glow of the same beam. F/X glitch or otherwise, it would appear this was not a solid example of a negative hit after all. So a distant strike does apparently remain a possibility there.
Going up against a Galor *at all* is unlikely. The Maquis are a smaller force with smaller, less well-protected individual vessels. They cannot sustain losses yet even a massed attack against a large Cardassian warship will naturally entail them.
And this is the main issue I see here. Even without a concrete example of a missed shot, the Cardassians are basically getting their butts kicked by a bunch of guerrilla star fighters. That scene isn’t so much what I would call an example of “popping Maquis fighters with relative ease” so much as “fighting to survive and failing, except to take a few with them.” I know when the subject of fighters in ‘Trek comes up, TNG episode “Conundrum” comes to many people’s minds. This example does not compare well.

And or course there's DS9 S:6E:6 "Sacrifice of Angels". Better, but it still involved fighters about the size of the Millennium Falcon flying relatively straight right in front of a massive enemy fleet at sub mach speeds and appearing to incur about 50% losses at most. Better than Disney Star Wars (especially the Rebels cartoon), but not by that much.
We're counting a near-total lack of fire as inability? I mean, about fifty seconds in on that video a flight of Hidekis roll right past the Defiant and her escorting Mirandas. Were they mutually unable to attack one another due to targeting inability? Of course not.
Not at all. In fact I’m not even trying to speculate why the fighters in SoA weren’t blasted out of the sky, I’m merely pointing out the fact that they weren’t. And their observed performance was on par with what we’ve seen from SW fighters, so it’s not as though they were warp juking their way to the target. My point being that you could just as easily swap that squadron of Peregrines for Y-wings and probably get more or less the same results.

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by 2046 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:15 pm

Minus the damage to the Galor, sure.

As for the attack on the Galor, it's safe to assume that the Maquis weren't just going for a straight fight of attrition versus a fully operational Cardassian warship. Even if the Maquis were coming in with "photon torpedoes and Type VIII phasers", as Evek laments, thus having an effect similar to PT boats, it'd be awfully ballsy to stick around to try to finish the ship off if it could fire back.

For example, I'm reminded of "Maneuvers" in which Chakotay recounts an attack on a "Cardassian frigate" over Bajor in which the Cardassian computer core was disabled.

One would presume some sort of similar shenanigans in this case, weakening the Galor in advance or screwing with its systems as opposed to a simple mass attack. One would expect significant losses in the latter case.

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by Darth Spock » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:37 pm

Sure, in fact seeing as the Galor was just sitting there in the middle of nowhere getting it's butt kicked, my guess is the propulsion systems were the first thing to go. Mobility is one of the main advantages I would count for capital ships in 'Trek over fighters. Losing that, whether by sabotage or being locked in tight formation, changes things a bit.

As for SW fighters not being able to inflict damage in a similar situation, well.... Admittedly I find myself needing to stand down on that point for now. As seems to happen too often, I was reviewing sources and noticed new details I had missed or misremembered in the past, forcing reevaluation as the whole mess of 'who can do what' starts sliding back and forth all over again.
That said, even if they were limited a single attack run, unloading a full load of heavy torpedoes or what have you as opposed to using cannons, the idea of SW fighters being rendered irrelevant in places where their 'Trek counterparts are still useful is a hard sell I think.

As for the existence of fighters in general, I’ve noticed that ‘Trek has rather an odd relationship with star fighters. They shouldn’t really function well within the technical parameters generally accepted in Star Trek, but ever since TNG the writers and producers seem to keep flirting with them all the same, unable to completely resist the thrills and spills fighter craft promise. In a versus context, having fighters in Star Trek would likely be something of a catch 22.
I have, and still do suspect that the attributes of ST fighters (particularly omni-directional beam emitters) would make them dominant in in the Star Wars universe, but as things stand they are presumably used in such small numbers they shouldn’t have as much of an impact. On the other hand, If the Star Trek franchise did fully commit to the idea of small fighters being of significant tactical value against large targets in universe, it would take a lot of the teeth out of ‘Trek’s existing capital ships. That's how it appears to me at least, observation and analysis continues.

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Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Post by Mith » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:24 pm

Khas wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:32 pm
So, in "Rising Malevolence", General Grievous' tactical display clearly shows a Keldon-class starship:

Image

Which got me thinking.... How WOULD the Clone Wars have progressed if the Cardassians (as of, say, 2370) got involved? Who would they side with? Would Palpatine's plot be exposed earlier? What else would change?
Well, it depends on a number of factors.

Primarily, the major issues for the Cardassians is projection power. A Galor or a Keldorn is not going to be quick enough to cover the larger galactic battle space. That said, if a hyperdrive can be relatively easily installed onto these ships in place of the warp drive (or in addition to), then that will solve a great deal of the logistics issues. The remaining logistical problems will be about replacing parts and repairs. The Cardassians can piggy-back off of most of the Republic's existing infrastructure, but there is clearly going to be some issues in supplying the staff and hardware needed over that distance, simply because the technology is very different. That said, it is a manageable problem and one that will get easier over time.

With that issue resolved, the Cardassians typically resort to using their phaser banks. And while those are effective weapons to use, a Galor and a Keldorn do not have enough banks to really make up for the sheer number of laser banks that the heavy capital ships carry in Star Wars. In a close range energy fight, the Galor is probably not going to match up too well against a Venator or a CIS Lucrehulk. Mitigating that issue is the fact that Galors and Keldorns do in fact carry photon torpedo launchers, but according to lower level lore, the Cardassians aren't as quick to produce them. That said, smaller ships like frigates are clearly outmatched by the Galor and the Keldorn. And even the Venator and Lucrehulk isn't going to be walking away from that engagement without a bloody nose.

So immediately the Cardassians are going to have to consider either having to adjust their tactical policy with their warships or they're going to have to avoid confrontation with larger ships without some sort of advantage. I expect the Cardassians to implement the former first and then slowly adjust for the latter as the war drags on.

The Cardassians could also provide effective special forces or shock troops. DS9 suggested that the 11th Order, which was a Reserve Order, had 500,000 troops. We are aware of 12 named order, suggesting that the number of available troops to the Union would be at around 6 million. While not particularly large, keep in mind that the Republic's initial army was 1.5 million and the Republic later ordered another 5 million troops. While that won't account for the entire fighting force (if indeed all of these are troops and not support personnel too), that would imply that the Cardassians hold a comparable ground force to the Republic. Of course, with the numbers from Ambush, the CIS army was at 150 million. But given that they generally lost in fights at about 10 to 1, that's not a bad deal.

Taking this into account, we again need to address the issue of logistics. Here the issue is not as severe, because there are plenty of large-scale Republic transports that could be converted to Cardassian use within short order to ease the initial logistics problem. And as I said before, it is a manageable problem that should get easier over time. The second issue is that of Cardassian gear. We're aware of course of small arms, as well as photon grenades, and artillery pieces. We also know about armored attack skimmers, as well as Cardassian fighters.

This brings us into the issue of combat doctrines. Star Wars tends to lean in towards the WWI and WWII style of combat. From the ship battles to the ground battles, it's clear where the inspiration is drawn from. That said, it does occasionally mix in some more modern warfare and even asymmetrical warfare. In fact, the Clones adjust more and more towards asymmetrical warfare under the Jedi leadership. That said, the primary form of combat is very similar to the two world wars, with the CIS preferring the early "march to our doom" style of assaults.

The Cardassians however, tend to approach with a more modern aspect. Groups broken down generally into squads or companies, holding onto territory and advancing. We've seen sensor integration via tricorders, ship sensors, satellites, probes, and even spying. We've seen combined arm fire in Nor Battle for the Strong, in which the Klingons used a combination of artillery and troop coordination to drive off Starfleet. Troop movement in the form of hoppers and skimmers, as well as attacks via fighters.

Whereas in the First or Second Battle of Geonosis, both sides more or send large waves of troops at each other, the Cardassians would use a different approach. If a capital ship is available, the Cardassians could launch a limited strike on the base from orbit. If not, then a handful of fighters would be more than capable of doing the job. Once the base is gone, assuming the robots can still fight, the Cardassians could use artillery to utterly destroy the advancing army. Miles away from their actual position.

If the Cardassians prefer to capture the base, they could lure the enemy out and use a limited strike to disable the defense systems. That would allow for a team to beam in for infiltration or even to launch an attack with skimmers, although the latter would risk attack from the local army or air defenses. In a more urban environment where the Cardassians may not want to destroy the city they're invading or defending, they can again resort to pinpoint attacks from orbit or fighter strafes. Or limited artillery strikes. If it comes down to direct combat, the Cardassians are going to be somewhat at a disadvantage, because they really don't use armor all that much.

That said, focused bombardment on armor positions and a few high energy cannons or a few phasers dialed up could handle the problem, so long as the army approaching them isn't too large. In which case though, the Cardassians can always use their transporters to fall back, while inflicting as much damage as they can.

Finally, the Cardassians could established defense platforms in Republic space. Given the utter devastation they inflicted upon the UFP-Romulan-Cardassian fleets during the Dominion War, I imagine they would be very effective in holding of CIS invasions.

As a counter-point, it should be noted that the Cardassians are not going to gel well with the Republic's Clone Army or with the Jedi Order. Or even with the Republic's Senate or the Chancellor himself. The Cardassians are very much in it to win it and they're not going to remain under the Chancellor's thumb if they can help it. And while the ability to use hyperdrive will revolutionize the Cardassian ability to expand and strengthen their economy, everyone else is going to immediately start copying them. The CIS will try and steal or buy what Cardassian tech they can.

That probably won't turn the tide of the war and it certainly won't allow the CIS to compete with the Cardassians on equal footing in the short-term or medium-term, but it is a long term problem and even closing the gap could have large repercussions for the Cardassians. ST technology allows them to have a large footprint with minimal personnel. That translates very well against more Industrial style warfare, but when your opponents modernize and retain their numerical superiority, that can be a problem. As I said, that is a long-term problem, as even a rapidly modernizing CIS would need to take into account that the cutting edge CIS tech on their new ships is probably 20-40 years old compared to Cardassian tech and is going to likely be 10x more expensive. So the CIS is going to need to focus in areas where they can maximize closing the gap or simply accept that they'll need to invest in a new fleet (or a renovated one) that is immensely more expensive to build and maintain.

That long-term problem could push the Cardassians to holding back in hopes that the CIS and the Republic exhaust themselves. Historically, that's what happened to Europe after WWII. In fact, the Cardassians could in theory lengthen the war by only committing their forces to battles or engagements that prolong the war or by selling or leaking Cardassian tech under the table to the CIS. Not enough to seriously threaten a Cardassian ship, but enough to shift the battles between the Republic and the CIS ships. They could lengthen the war by years with that before Palpatine is able to bring the war to a conclusion, but possibly not.

Overall, I think the Cardassian Union will try to have it both ways. They're going to try and expand their territory throughout the conflict by force of arms or treaty, working hard enough to make themselves useful, while at the same time encouraging the Republic and CIS locked in a war that will exhaust both. After the CIS inevitably loses, the Cardassians might have doubled the size of their territory and thanks to hyperdrive routes, vastly improved their own internal economy. Even with technology being leaked and sold to the CIS and Republic, the Cardassians should still have a leg up and be ready to fortify themselves. Expect a massive shift towards ship fleets and recruitment. Then the Cardassian Union effectively pushes to remain a mostly autonomous region under the Galactic Republic.

Doing so, the Cardassians could then engage in astro-economics; using replicator produced goods to effectively undercut their competition. Aggressively go after planets and resources; buying them outright. Colonizing worlds and using the Obsidian Order to support the Galactic Rebellion when they come around. Encourage fights between planets. And when the Republic-turned-Empire does eventually crack, the Cardassian Union can expand. First step would be to annex planets that are either dependent or aligned with you. Next step is to annex planets that have a Cardassian minority population or business resources or markets, using whatever paper-thin astro-political excuses they can manage.

Pretty soon, the Cardassians could be a strong competing power on the galactic stage, but they'd have to be careful not to overextend.

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