Spacedock in Discovery

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Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:15 am

The season finale of Discovery gave us another Easter egg to ponder when we see Earth and Spacedock is clearly seen along with many other stations as well as starships in Earth orbit.

Some intriguing facts are established here:

- Spacedock existed in 2257.

- Spacedock is still under construction, but appears to be nearly complete and so could be finished by the time of TOS and fully operational during Kirk's 5-year mission in the 2260s.

- This also matches up with the impressive construction capabilities seen in the Kelvin Timeline for 2250s and early 2260s, though the much larger Kelvin Timeline Spacedock/Starbase One was complete by no later than 2258. Not bad for the Prime Timeline Federation being only 96 years old. And we see the Prime Starbase One as well as several other, multi-km tall space stations.

- The other stations and starships in Earth orbit is something fans have long awaited, but due to budget and technical constraints was never fully realized until now. This hints at impressive potential planetary defense scenarios.

So that's all the commentary I have time for for now, look forward to seeing comments from everyone else.
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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:14 am

It looks different, naturally, but I can bet that STDJWs (of the type who insist it'll all fit perfectly and ignore the "visual reboot") are going to claim that it could totally have been refurbished despite literally costing thousands of ships worth of material.

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:14 am

It is pretty much the same exact design, the only discrepancies can be easily explained away by the fact that the station appears to be about 75 to 85% complete at this point.
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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:57 pm

It's a *similar* design, yes, but the main mushroom-head structure is obviously different. The flat-top of the mushroom extends further outward and has structural differences, et cetera. I'll see about doing an overlay to help illustrate the point later.

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:09 pm

In the meantime, here's a similar angle of what looks to be a decent model of the one from the Prime universe:

http://m.hdw.me/out/674933.html

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:02 am

2046 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:57 pm
It's a *similar* design, yes, but the main mushroom-head structure is obviously different. The flat-top of the mushroom extends further outward and has structural differences, et cetera. I'll see about doing an overlay to help illustrate the point later.
Your CG illustration only makes it plain that it is largely the same design. It also makes it clear that the biggest differences are because it is not complete. Not only is the upper cap unfinished, but the lower stem where it steps up from one cylinder into another that the wider one above it is unfinished at this point given the structure that has been clearly laid down. Everything else, like the mushroom cap's "cityscape" is clearly also not complete as well, but the base detail, like the flat main center dome, is in place, however the four equidistantly placed smaller ones are not. There is some build-up of a few of the aerials but not all of them are in place and the ones that are there are not fully built out.
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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:03 am

Image

Note the difference of the flat-top. I'm not referring to the upper cityscape itself, though there are extra parts in the base of it.

Note also the differences in the main core.

These are significant structural differences which incompleteness fails to account for.

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:25 am

I already addressed that. There is still quite a bit of construction going on in the mushroom stem, especially on the main larger cylinder and on parts of the skirt-like half dome. It's just not as easily visible in the image since that is a heavily enlarged and cropped image from a much larger, more panoramic one:
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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:42 pm

Respectfully, if you think you addressed my points, it's because I didn't explain them properly.

The Discovery station structure as seen does not match the 80's Spacedock model. The variations are more than, say, the Bulldog Enterprise-D versus the svelte ILM model, and moreover are sufficient in nature and extent to force one to dismiss any suggestion that it's due to construction in progress.

First, let's find a good model and compare it to the 80's Spacedock model to confirm a good fit for further checks. Why must we do this? Because the Discovery station is shown at an unusual angle, meaning we can't simply overlay existing pics and call it a day.

So, let's take a model I found and compare it to the iconic approach scene from ST3, with the model lit oppositely to show divergence better:

Image

That's pretty dang good. The large upper mushroom structure has a few points of departure . . . the rim is too thick on the model and the flat-top a bit too narrow, but otherwise we're doing well unless you want to count off for window alignment.

Now we'll take the best version of the Discovery station image and adjust it for best visibility:

Image

Now we can take the station model and maneuver it as necessary to match.

Image

Note some of the areas of difference.

Image

One thing worth noticing is that the main mushroom rim is much thicker on the Discovery station. Additionally, the second mushroom is way smaller, yet appears to be receiving hull covering (marked in purple). I dunno what the extra (blue) bit is. Also, most notably, the flat-top now extends out onto the 'hillside', curving downward on its way to the rim (marked in red). The following visual aid may help explain my meaning:

Image

This is not evidence of incomplete construction. This is a different structure altogether . . . you cannot get from A to B without utterly altering the structure, or building atop it and thereby exacerbating the other issues. By "other issues", I refer to the fact that there's the little matter of the secondary mushroom, here receiving an outer skin despite being tiny, and other central shaft differences. If you expand the main mushroom (at the cost of hundreds of ships' worth of material, mind you), you alter the proportions of the assorted parts.

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:23 am

With respect, you seem to be on a crusade here to prove this is not the Prime Spacedock. Since you're using a non-canon version, I'll just pick a few that don't agree entirely with either:

Image

Image

This shows the flat top to be wider than your fan made CG version, but maybe less so than the Discovery version.

Image

A simplistic CG model that doesn't agree with anyone, but is from the same angle and shows off a similar view to the DSC Spcedock lower skirt that matches it pretty closely, though unlike that one, it is fairly clean without the rough lines that indicate it is still under construction.

Image

Camera angles and lens change things as this scene reminds us where the flat top looks small, the "cityscape" is huge, and the rims look thick.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Spac ... _LCARS.jpg

An in-universe canon diagram that doesn't agree with anyone and shows a very wide flat top on the mushroom portion of the identical, but much larger Starbase 74! This being shown to remind us that Star Trek often contradicted itself back in even Roddenberry's day!

And of course, the actual filming model as it was back in 2015 in the only thing you'll really be able to find that is close to a direct side-on view:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Spac ... torage.jpg

The rim isn't nearly as thin as you portray, but not quite as thick as DSC's version. However, deriving much from this is difficult because the angle is off in photo. In the end, it's not different enough to get worked up over and while it's fun to root out differences, this is, as you ironically point out, is a show that is based around visually rebooting things, but has made it clear this is a visual reboot, and like it or not, set in the Prime Timeline. The showrunners and staff have been honest by and large about that since day one. Gone are the days of cardboard sets lit by winking Christmas tree lights and we should probably change our head canon accordingly.

The DSC version of the station is very clearly meant to be that space station and is quite easily recognizable as such. Let go the hate. You're beginning to sound a lot like Curtis Saxon back in 2005 when he tried to convince people that the Death Star seen under construction briefly at the very end of Revenge of the Sith was not the Death Starof A New Hope (and Rogue One), but a prototype, and all despite George Lucas himself and the staff under him at the time saying it was the Death Star.
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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Sothis » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:15 pm

A simpler explanation between any apparent discrepancies could be that Spacedock got revised and altered from time to time.

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:41 pm

Yes, it would be, but 2040 doesn't want to accept such a thing, even though more extreme makeovers have been seen before in Trek.
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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:25 am

I like how you declare me to be on a hateful, Saxton-like crusade of not wanting to acknowledge things, when my entire reason for further explaining the obvious differences and their meaning in the thread is that the obvious differences and their meaning were being willfully ignored.

Were the Spacedock issue an isolated incident in a show that was not obviously a reboot -- a show that calls itself a "visual reboot", and which has clearly tossed out existing design philosophy before -- then, hey, sure, you could argue I am being a dick, overzealous, or some combo thereof

But it's Discovery, for crying out loud . . . they're intentionally redesigning everything and explicitly saying so. How the hell is that controversial and evidence of a crusading hater?

But I digress.

All I said in the initial post was that it looks different, which it does, and pointed out the absurdity of the argument type commonly made by those trolling types who reject the reboot nature of the show that it would be readily rebuilt a mere twenty-odd years later at the cost of thousands of starships of material. (I stand amused that this has come to pass, by the way.)

Your response was that it was the "same exact design", which was obviously not correct and needlessly opposing what I said. After I naturally replied, this was later amended to "largely the same design", with remaining differences again chalked up to it being incomplete.

While less obviously wrong, this still sidestepped the point that only a major and costly reconstruction of the basic structure could possibly produce the TMP-era Prime Spacedock . . . that is to say, it was handwaving the differences. You're smarter than that, so I posted a better visual aid. You again handwaved it as incompleteness, dismissing the rest as already addressed, which I viewed to be quite incorrect.

Thus, now employing a fan-made digital model of the Prime Spacedock and demonstrating that it was close to the real thing (but for differences I noted and which you noted again for whatever reason, as if I had not already pointed them out), I went over in greater detail the differences.

Your response to this is very strange. I can't imagine why you posted a lot of non-canon Spacedock versions, for instance. I suppose you're suggesting I should've built a perfect CG model myself, but since the effort I have already put in is dismissed as evidence of a hateful crusade, one wonders why I should trouble myself to achieve such splendid visual precision if even near-perfect sketches are so readily discarded.

To then attack the visual hiccups in Prime canon, even to the point of employing the Cardboard Fallacy, is also amusing, especially insofar as an imperfect LCARS representation of the model that appears in the very same episode. Most people recognize that for what it was, which is the very same thing I am doing in regards to the Discovery station.

At last, you finally argue that it's the same because the producers supposedly say so. I'm not aware of them having said anything about Spacedock one way or the other, but in any case that does at least correctly encapsulate your argument. It's the same design by fiat and faith, and damn one's eyes. If they offend, pluck them out, eh?

Meanwhile, visually and otherwise, Star Trek: Discovery is a reboot, and this is obviously not Prime Spacedock. The facts of a reboot do not interfere with or rewrite the facts of the Prime canon. It is mythical to that canon as surely as Kahless forging the first bat'leth from a lock of his hair is mythical . . . impossible as such a thing would be in Discovery, what with the hairless Klingons and all . . .

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:52 am

Neglected this point:
One ship. New parts. A major refit, in-universe, of a starship that was four decades old, with untold battles and light-years under her dorsal.

Now multiply that by the thousands to rebuild the very structure of a stationary platform that cost thousands of starships worth of material to build in the first place, volumetrically-speaking.

You really don't think there's any distinction between the two ideas? Seriously? What next, a Starfleet Dyson Sphere just for kicks?

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Re: Spacedock in Discovery

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:40 pm

2046 wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:52 am
Neglected this point:
One ship. New parts. A major refit, in-universe, of a starship that was four decades old, with untold battles and light-years under her dorsal.

Now multiply that by the thousands to rebuild the very structure of a stationary platform that cost thousands of starships worth of material to build in the first place, volumetrically-speaking.

You really don't think there's any distinction between the two ideas? Seriously? What next, a Starfleet Dyson Sphere just for kicks?
In the Kelvin and Prime universes and timelines where the Federation can build stuff like this, do you really think that a refit of Spacedock at some point during the 28 years between 2257 and 2285 is such a hard stretch?
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