Ultritium Explosives & More

[l33telboi]

There was recently a rather interesting post made on SB.com regarding Ultritium explosives. I thought i'd link it here and see what you think of it.

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... ost3081803

In any case, here's the opening post:

In "A Time To Stand", the Federation beams down 90 isotons of ultritium explosive to a Dominion Ketracel-white refining facility. O'Brien is quick to inform them that:

Quote:
O'BRIEN'S COM VOICE
I've got eighty-three empty
canisters standing by.
(a beat)
And one not so empty. Ninety
isotons of enriched ultritium
should take out the entire storage
facility and anything else within
eight hundred kilometers.

The ship, at the range of 800 kilometers, would be destroyed. For shits and giggles, I decided to calc the explosive potential of 90 isotons of ultritum explosive, and see if we could apply that to other Federation weapons.

Wong's low calculation on his shield site here estimates that the shields of the E-D can take about (very roughly) 324,000 MJ (per square metre) against her shields before collapsing. Assuming the Jem-Hadar bug is similar in proportion, (the E-D would have a far larger shield bubble), we can calc the detonation of the explosive (((4*pi*800,000^2)*324,000,000,000)/(4.184 *10^18)) as being approximately 622 792.211 gigatons. This works out to about 6900 GT per isoton. A low-yield estimation of photon torpedoes puts them at half-a-dozen isotons; (Viv's division of 200 isotons from Scorpion by 32, for Voyager's torpedo inventory); this would make a photon torpedo equivilant to approximately 40,000 GT.

What do you think?

Edit: For amusement's value, if we assume that this 'canister' of ketracel white is the standard Jem'Hadar Ketracel white dispenser, that would mean fitting a 625,000 GT explosive into something about the size of an attache case.

Edit II: In Voyager, Harry Kim exclaims when placing an 80 isoton charge into a photon torpedo "What are we planning on doing, blowing up a small moon?" An 80 isoton charge is about 560,000 GT, or enough to... blow up a small moon. And even a not-so-small moon, were it to come to that.

Edit III: To clarify further, the 324,000 MJ figure is derived from 30 MW over 180 minutes of 60 seconds each (or three hours); however, the Enterprise-D's shields were down to 23% at the time (which is not factored in- I assume the shields were fully intact), meaning that it's possible to crank up the calculation significantly if one so desires....

What do you people think?

[Ted C]

"Ultritium" -- sounds like some kind of twist on "tritium", a hydrogen isotope. It would suggest that this is some kind of nuclear fusion device.

Of course, we've no sensible idea what an isoton might be.

As for the 800 km radius, there are so many variables that it would be impossible to guess what O'Brien is thinking. For instance, I don't know how much reason we would have to assume that nearby ships would have their shields up.

[l33telboi]

"Ultritium" -- sounds like some kind of twist on "tritium", a hydrogen isotope. It would suggest that this is some kind of nuclear fusion device.

Of course, we've no sensible idea what an isoton might be.

As for the 800 km radius, there are so many variables that it would be impossible to guess what O'Brien is thinking. For instance, I don't know how much reason we would have to assume that nearby ships would have their shields up.

There's tons of more stuff if you click the link. For example what exactly will be destroyed inside the 800km radius and further guesses involving what an Isoton would be and even a few things in regards to nukes.

[Ted C]

Well, they're using an estimate of the shield's "steady state" bombardment capacity to determine its "surge" capacity, so that's not necessarily a good start. Being able to with stand a steady 30 MW/m^2 for a few hours may be easier than handling whatever the output of this bomb is in a millisecond.

For example, if this were a 90 megaton device, the power intensity at a distance of 800 km would be around 45-50 MW/m^2. If an isoton were just 10 megatons, the radiation intensity would already be an order of magnitude above what the Enterprise had to handle in "Relics" and "Descent".

[Mike DiCenso]

Ted C wrote:

Well, they're using an estimate of the shield's "steady state" bombardment capacity to determine its "surge" capacity, so that's not necessarily a good start. Being able to with stand a steady 30 MW/m^2 for a few hours may be easier than handling whatever the output of this bomb is in a millisecond.

Well, there's more to it than that; the E-D shields were down to 23% and we don't even know if this is 23% of full normal, or of the full possible on auxiliary power only. Add to that the fact that it was stated that the solar flares on the star in "Relics" were continuing to grow in strength, and you can see the nature of the problem here.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Ultritium is rather difficult to deal with overall. (I see I need to fix that section up a little, it cuts off in mid-sentence right now.) There is also a rather less impressive use of ten isoton ultritium shells in "The Ship," but "A Time to Stand," even if taken most loosely to refer to destroying everything unshielded within 800 km, really does suggest quite incredible energy levels per "isoton."

There's a bit of a consistency problem, even if the example is duplicated with photon torpedos in a way that suggests that the analogy to Voyager's use of isoton yields on photon torpedos is appropriate. (See "Apocalypse Rising," in which one spread of photon torpedos is said to be sufficient to destroy both the heavily shielded station and everything else within a few hundred km.)

While I think it's appropriate to think of these radii of destruction as wiping out ships, it is appropriate to look at exactly what is involved in having a radius of destruction of 800 km. Even in the looser senses of "destroy everything," multiple gigatons are suggested. This is one example that suggests to me that "isoton" of yield is derived from either fusion or M/AM annihilation as a benchmark.

[SailorSaturn13]

Isoton - ton of hydrogen fusing into helium?

[Ted C]

Isoton - ton of hydrogen fusing into helium?

There's no more evidence for that interpretation than any other. I'm pretty sure the writers deliberately made up a term that wouldn't have any concrete definition so it wouldn't "tie their hands" when using it in future scripts.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Isoton - ton of hydrogen fusing into helium?

Either regular or deuterium, yes, and either to helium or to iron. Given that Trek probably uses D+D->He fusion typically, that's a more probable standard.

If we want to try to keep photon torpedos down to at most the low gigaton range, that's really your best option... especially since they are identified to be M/AM warheads, which need to obey conservation of energy.

If you assume that the Trek standard is fusing hydrogen or deuterium down to He-4 with no waste (see STIV and think about neutron radiation coming from fusion reactors), it's a 6e17 joule unit.

It's still not a great fit overall, but it's not a bad idea - the 80 isoton ultritium explosive is "only" ten gigatons and probably only delivers around 5 megajoules per square meter at 800 km (isoton too low) and it's hard to believe that a photon torpedo can squeeze in up to 1.3 tons of antimatter ("Scorpion" - isoton too high). ~170 kg of antimatter is somewhat plausible ("Living Witness" - isoton OK), but the shells in "The Ship" would then be gigaton range (isoton too high). A 54 isoton "gravimetric" warhead in "The Omega Directive" is OK and powerful enough to provoke quips about small moons, and a 5 million isoton mine ("Scorpion" again) would fit the description about affecting a whole solar system.

Taking it to the secondary determinants, "Skin of Evil" fits in if later photon torpedos had a maximum yield of 25-200 isotons, as does "Apocalypse Rising," and the old TM isoton yields (18.5 in DS9, for example) actually fit OK with the paradigm even though we're throwing out the TNGTM antimatter quantities.

Now, of course, if the "isoton" uses a different base mass unit, the figures could change a bit too. Overall, I'm not fond of the isoton, but you can take a few guesses.

[Who is like God arbour]

especially since they are identified to be M/AM warheads

Where exactly are the photon torpedos (not the photonic torpedos) identified to be M/AM warheads? I can't remeber, that I have ever heard that in Star Trek. I think, that this is coming from a second source.

In Voyager it is said, as far as I can remember, that Tuvok is able to take apart a photon warhead in a certain amount of time. How would you take apart such a warhead, in which is anti-matter?

We know, that there are improvements in the photon torpedos power outload. To increase the detonation, you would have mainly to increase the matter and anti-matter. Sure, you could arrange, that matter and anti-matter are reacting better with another. But that increase only the efficiency and is very limited. To gain real effects, you have to increase the load. That means, you need more storage space. But the cases are since Enterprise essentially the same. OK, you could gain some space by scaling down other components in a photon torpedo but that too would only increase the efficiency.

If it is only a M/AM warheads wouldn't it be easier, to increase the size of such warhead to have more matter and anti-matter aboard and thus a greater explosion power?

And since it is explicit said, that the photonic torpedos from Enterprise are equipped with antimatter warheads (ENT: "The Expanse"), what would be the difference to photon- and quanten torpedos?

[Jedi Master Spock]

especially since they are identified to be M/AM warheads

Where exactly are the photon torpedos (not the photonic torpedos) identified to be M/AM warheads? I can't remeber, that I have ever heard that in Star Trek. I think, that this is coming from a second source.

STVII (Generations) tells us that photon, and not just photonic torpedos, are "antimatter charges."

"Sons of Mogh" (DS9) supports this; it indicates that photon torpedos produce gamma ray bursts, as M/AM annihilation reactions usually do.

In Voyager it is said, as far as I can remember, that Tuvok is able to take apart a photon warhead in a certain amount of time. How would you take apart such a warhead, in which is anti-matter?

Very carefully. Also note that a photon torpedo has an assortment of different warhead loads, ranging from planetary bombardment to "display mode" (fireworks).

We know, that there are improvements in the photon torpedos power outload. To increase the detonation, you would have mainly to increase the matter and anti-matter. Sure, you could arrange, that matter and anti-matter are reacting better with another. But that increase only the efficiency and is very limited. To gain real effects, you have to increase the load. That means, you need more storage space. But the cases are since Enterprise essentially the same. OK, you could gain some space by scaling down other components in a photon torpedo but that too would only increase the efficiency.

If it is only a M/AM warheads wouldn't it be easier, to increase the size of such warhead to have more matter and anti-matter aboard and thus a greater explosion power?

The biggest problem with antimatter warheads is containment - i.e., the extra space required to safely store antimatter. Containment fields mean extra space; shrink the containment fields, and the warhead gets more powerful while keeping the same size. Miniaturize and improve the other components, and the warhead gets larger as the torpedo stays the same size.

By the time of TNG, almost the entire interior of the photon torpedo is modular and the non-warhead systems take up a minimal amount of space (see "Emissary" in TNG.)

Now, there is incidentally no requirement that the antimatter of late era Trek torpedos is antideuterium slush; they could have moved to, say, powdered anti-iron in a magnetic foam or something similarly Treknobabblish, but antideuterium slush would be preferred since they already store (and possibly generate) it for the warp engines.

And since it is explicit said, that the photonic torpedos from Enterprise are equipped with antimatter warheads (ENT: "The Expanse"), what would be the difference to photon- and quanten torpedos?

Quantum torpedos use a whole different warhead. The DS9TM invokes the zero-point energy of a vacuum (which is by definition inaccessible - that's bad science for you), but we really can't be sure what exactly they do. Suffice it to say that we know they're more dangerous than photon torpedos, but we don't really know why, how much, or why they haven't entirely replaced photon torpedos.

[Who is like God arbour]

STVII (Generations) tells us that photon, and not just photonic torpedos, are "antimatter charges."

I honestly can't remember, what and where exactly? Maybe the problem is, that I know only the german-dubbed version.

"Sons of Mogh" (DS9) supports this; it indicates that photon torpedos produce gamma ray bursts, as M/AM annihilation reactions usually do.

But surly other phenomenons produce gamma ray bursts too?

[Socar]

STVII (Generations) tells us that photon, and not just photonic torpedos, are "antimatter charges."

I honestly can't remember, what and where exactly?

At the beginning of the movie, when the Enterprise-B is caught in the Nexus, Scotty suggests that "An anti-matter discharge directly ahead... it might disrupt the field long enough for us to break away." To which Kirk replies "A photon torpedo?" and Scotty confirms "Aye."

Unfortunately, they wouldn't be installed until Tuesday. ;)

[Who is like God arbour]

STVII (Generations) tells us that photon, and not just photonic torpedos, are "antimatter charges."

I honestly can't remember, what and where exactly?

At the beginning of the movie, when the Enterprise-B is caught in the Nexus, Scotty suggests that "An anti-matter discharge directly ahead... it might disrupt the field long enough for us to break away." To which Kirk replies "A photon torpedo?" and Scotty confirms "Aye."

Unfortunately, they wouldn't be installed until Tuesday. ;)

I don't wait until Tuesday ;-)

Now I can remember. Thank you.

[SailorSaturn13]

In Voyager it is said, as far as I can remember, that Tuvok is able to take apart a photon warhead in a certain amount of time. How would you take apart such a warhead, in which is anti-matter?

Like with modern ammo, where you can remove explosives. AM is transferred into a containment - for use , say , in a warp core.


If a whole PT would be M/AM mix, it would (water density) contain over 200 kg, and have yield of 8-10 GT. The problem REALLY is containment.