What If...

[l33telboi]

JMS, I'm not sure I agree with you on the phasers > photon torpedoes bit. But, there's one piece of evidence that you didn't mention that suggests exactly what you're saying. Did you ever see the ENT episode "In a Mirror Darkly" where the Defiant is used to whip the Alpha/Beta quadrants into shape? Its photon torpedoes are constantly shown to be weaker then the phasers. Phasers break ships in half with a single shot. Yet the NX-class took two volleys of photon torpedoes before being destroyed.

You can see most of the battles here.

I personally chalked this up to variable yields, though that doesn't quite explain why they're firing low-yield torpedoes around.

[l33telboi]

That they gave a 15 year old boy antimatter only demonstrates that the crew of Enterprise is, well, idiotic. However Geordi's own comments in Contaigon that they are "sitting on a bomb that could go any second -- or never" indicate antimatter containment is not perfectly reliable. Multiply that by hundreds of different containment systems and the risk of a catastrophe rises dramatically.

Antimatter storage seems rather trivial even in the Enterprise era. Archer was transporting barrels filled with the stuff down to a planet via shuttlepod. And he wasn't exactly careful when handling them. Similarly torpedoes are said to have a 'safe-mode', where they don't run the risk of going off, even when a ship drives through a spatial anomaly that physically warps the parts of the ship and makes every single console explode, the torpedoes are fine.

[Mike DiCenso]

JMS, I'm not sure I agree with you on the phasers > photon torpedoes bit. But, there's one piece of evidence that you didn't mention that suggests exactly what you're saying. Did you ever see the ENT episode "In a Mirror Darkly" where the Defiant is used to whip the Alpha/Beta quadrants into shape? Its photon torpedoes are constantly shown to be weaker then the phasers. Phasers break ships in half with a single shot. Yet the NX-class took two volleys of photon torpedoes before being destroyed.

You can see most of the battles here.

I personally chalked this up to variable yields, though that doesn't quite explain why they're firing low-yield torpedoes around.

They didn't finish the Avenger with phasers, though the phasers did do some damage in the initial hit, along with a couple of torpedoes, probably because the ship was still powering back up after Mirror-Trip repaired M-Phlox's sabotage. In the second volley, the torpedoes alone utterly destroy the Avenger.

This is supported by the earlier, vastly more effective performance of the Defiant's phasers and torpedoes against the rebel ships, most notably that big kilometer long D'kyr that gets completely trashed in seconds by the same number of torpedoes.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

That they gave a 15 year old boy antimatter only demonstrates that the crew of Enterprise is, well, idiotic. However Geordi's own comments in Contaigon that they are "sitting on a bomb that could go any second -- or never" indicate antimatter containment is not perfectly reliable. Multiply that by hundreds of different containment systems and the risk of a catastrophe rises dramatically.

Antimatter storage seems rather trivial even in the Enterprise era. Archer was transporting barrels filled with the stuff down to a planet via shuttlepod. And he wasn't exactly careful when handling them. Similarly torpedoes are said to have a 'safe-mode', where they don't run the risk of going off, even when a ship drives through a spatial anomaly that physically warps the parts of the ship and makes every single console explode, the torpedoes are fine.

When was this? I recall them moving deuterium, but not antimatter. But certainly there are other examples of antimatter storage going all the way back to TOS with the transport in a containment bottle by Kirk and Garrovick down to Tyco IV in "Obsession".
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Not to make an argument, but could that vertical launcher be the rear launcher shooting a torp upwards? The torp just made a sharp turn right after coming out instead of the usual large curve or possibly something in the tube that 'rebounds' them in a particular direction, kind of like changing the angle of phaser blasts, but with a different mechanism. Maybe a temporary force field to deflect its path and the strength of the deflection is either based on the strength of the field or its position.

Looks like the torpedo is droping straight down out of the stardrive section's belly. It's a gaff, and we probably can ignore it, but still it is rather interesting if we were to accept it as-is.
-Mike

It would be interesting. It would provide some evidence that ship-to-ship fights aren't always gonna have everyone stay on practically the same plane. SoA did show that a lot, but you'd think that if it was more common, they'd put in vertical tubes. The horizontal ones have to be passing somewhere near crew quarters, so that wouldn't be that big of an issue for areas people go through when they're awake.

Edit: Actually, I was thinking you meant the rear shots of Voyager that fired the torp that made a more diagonal path. I hadn't even scrolled down further than that till now.

I think that presupposes that the torpedo cannot maneuver very well once it is fired out of the tube. But from an efficency standpoint, having the tubes facing in two different axis would allow direct firing at a target and so minimize the amount of maneuvering, and thus reduce wasted reactants that can be used for bigger booms against the target.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

When was this? I recall them moving deuterium, but not antimatter.

Enterprise episode "Hatchery" from Season 3. Archer wants to bring down some antimatter to a crashed Xindi vessel to get it operational again.

They didn't finish the Avenger with phasers, though the phasers did do some damage in the initial hit, along with a couple of torpedoes, probably because the ship was still powering back up after Mirror-Trip repaired M-Phlox's sabotage.

My point is that they fired two volleys of torpedoes at the vessel, when in the same episode we see the Defiant blasting Andorian Warships with single phaser blasts. And yet the Andorian vessels should be vastly superior to the Human vessel. On top of that a Vulcan vessel takes an entire volley of torpedoes, and though it is destroyed, the damage from the individual torpedoes is less then the phaser hits to the Andorian ships, and those are supposedly roughly on par.

[Mike DiCenso]

When was this? I recall them moving deuterium, but not antimatter.

Enterprise episode "Hatchery" from Season 3. Archer wants to bring down some antimatter to a crashed Xindi vessel to get it operational again.

Ah, okay. Was that before or after Archer came under the influence of the hatchlings?

They didn't finish the Avenger with phasers, though the phasers did do some damage in the initial hit, along with a couple of torpedoes, probably because the ship was still powering back up after Mirror-Trip repaired M-Phlox's sabotage.

My point is that they fired two volleys of torpedoes at the vessel, when in the same episode we see the Defiant blasting Andorian Warships with single phaser blasts. And yet the Andorian vessels should be vastly superior to the Human vessel. On top of that a Vulcan vessel takes an entire volley of torpedoes, and though it is destroyed, the damage from the individual torpedoes is less then the phaser hits to the Andorian ships, and those are supposedly roughly on par.

Right, but read my point above about the the Defiant having to power back up again after M-Phlox's sabotage with regards to the discrepancy between the two scenes. I would also point out how quickly the Defiant phasers and torpedoes made short work of the Tholian ships and base even earlier on, supporting the power up theory even more.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Ah, okay. Was that before or after Archer came under the influence of the hatchlings?

After, why?

Right, but read my point above about the the Defiant having to power back up again after M-Phlox's sabotage with regards to the discrepancy between the two scenes.

Shouldn't affect torpedoes. And the ship should've been operational again when they attacked the rebel ships.

[Mike DiCenso]

Ah, okay. Was that before or after Archer came under the influence of the hatchlings?

After, why?

Because it could be argued that the mental state Archer was in was severely affecting his judgement, and so he might have been attempting to take unnecessary risks on the hatchlings' behalf.

Right, but read my point above about the the Defiant having to power back up again after M-Phlox's sabotage with regards to the discrepancy between the two scenes.

Shouldn't affect torpedoes. And the ship should've been operational again when they attacked the rebel ships.

You're missing my point. I wasn't speaking about the Defiant being underpowered against the rebel ships, far from it. I was talking that in terms of comparing the attack on the rebel ships to the attack on the Avenger, there is a reason for the ship not being up to snuff in the latter engagement, which is further backed up by the Defiant's performance against the Tholians. So what we have is:

* Against the Tholians: after having had sufficent time to power up, the Defiant kicks the Tholian ships and base's collective asses rather quickly.

* Against the rebel ships: the Defiant makes very short work of very large and powerful 22nd century Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite ships.

* Against the Avenger: Takes more effort because the Defiant is still powering up against seconds after M-Trip reverses M-Phlox's sabotage.

As to your point about the torpedoes, it was established in "Elaan of Troyius" [TOS, Season 3] that torpedoes do need warp power, at least on Constitution class starships.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The launcher as Praeothmin points out acts to accelerate the torpedo so that it does not have to do so itself from a relative dead-stop, and then possibly have to accelerate to a high fraction of c or to a higher warp speed, which would waste the warhead reactants. With the launcher pickign up a good chunk of the acceleration, either handing off a warp field or while at sublight, accelerating the torpedo to a high fraction of c before the torpedo's own propulsion kicks in, it saves more power and means a bigger BOOM when it hits the target.

I have never seen a photon torpedo exiting the launch tubes at speeds and accelerations that can't be matched by even todays missiles. Is there any evidence launch tubes can accelerate the torpedo to such relative speeds? Photon torpedoes launched at warp still move at low relative velocity to the firing ship, even those fired in quantum slipstream.

In "Genesis" , the E-D fires a volley of torpedoes from a relative deadstop, one of torpedoes malfunctions (including the self-destruct) and goes flying off so fast that it gets out of the phasers' range within seconds. But even going by visuals, the torpedoes are going hundreds of meters a second in some cases judging by how quickly they clear the saucer section of the E-D. I know of no modern day missile or missile launch system which can do that. Even large, powerful chemical-propulsion rockets, like the Space Shuttle, or Ariane 5 only reach about 45 meters/a second within the first few seconds of launch.

The "burst fire" torpedo spread starts out a big cluster, that then rapidly spreads out equidistantly then maneuvers to converge on the target at different angles. It's been seen at least three times in TNG; "The Arsenal of Freedom", "Booby trap", and "Yesterday's Enterprise". In "Booby trap" we saw that the torpedoes are all individually powerful enough to vaporize 75-100 meter wide asteroids as well as a 600 meter warship, and produce explosions which expanded further on to consume additional asteroids of similar size. So weak MIRVs from a single torpedo is not what I would call it, especially considering that the tube openings are big enough to allow four or five tightly packed torpedo casings to exit from it.

Weak as in weaker than a single warhead. Alternatively the time needed to load up 5 torpedoes is 5 times greater so they can fire 1 torpedo, say, every second and 5 torpedoes every 5 seconds.

I doubt weaker, it does not follow from any evidence, otherwise why would in "Booby Trap" would the E-D crew have choosen that particular method to destroy the energy-gobbling aceton assimilators instead of just firing rapid sequence shots, like those used in "Encounter at Farpoint", "Q Who?", and "The Nth Degree"? I would say a real limitation would using up all 250 torpedoes far too quickly in a multi-ship engagement, like what we saw in the Dominion War battles.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Because it could be argued that the mental state Archer was in was severely affecting his judgement, and so he might have been attempting to take unnecessary risks on the hatchlings' behalf.

Doubtful. The entire crew of the Enterprise was there to assisst him, and no one expressed any conserns about the antimatter, above them saying that using up their antimatter that way was a foolish thing to do.

You're missing my point. I wasn't speaking about the Defiant being underpowered against the rebel ships, far from it. I was talking that in terms of comparing the attack on the rebel ships to the attack on the Avenger, there is a reason for the ship not being up to snuff in the latter engagement, which is further backed up by the Defiant's performance against the Tholians. So what we have is:

* Against the Tholians: after having had sufficent time to power up, the Defiant kicks the Tholian ships and base's collective asses rather quickly.

* Against the rebel ships: the Defiant makes very short work of very large and powerful 22nd century Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite ships.

* Against the Avenger: Takes more effort because the Defiant is still powering up against seconds after M-Trip reverses M-Phlox's sabotage.

Still leaves my argument intact. The Defiant kicked all kinds of ass against the Rebel fleet, yes, the point being that phasers were demonstrated to be stronger in that episode. Possibly also the Avenger, granted that the power-up could've affected the whole thing, though.

As to your point about the torpedoes, it was established in "Elaan of Troyius" [TOS, Season 3] that torpedoes do need warp power, at least on Constitution class starships.

Do you have a quote handy? I suppose it's possible that they shunt antimatter to the torpedoes directly from the warp core, or something like that...

But it seems damn odd. They're nothing more then missiles, after all. You don't need a ship with a powerful reactor to fire missiles.

[Mike DiCenso]

Still leaves my argument intact. The Defiant kicked all kinds of ass against the Rebel fleet, yes, the point being that phasers were demonstrated to be stronger in that episode. Possibly also the Avenger, granted that the power-up could've affected the whole thing, though.

I think it very likely, and you are forgetting that the Defiant kicked all kinds of ass over the Tholian ships and their base, too. I don't think the Avenger was just that tough, merely the Defiant powering up prevented it's quicker demise. Remember that all those other ships proved themselves to be vastly superior to the Avenger and the other ships in the Terran Empire fleet.

As to your point about the torpedoes, it was established in "Elaan of Troyius" [TOS, Season 3] that torpedoes do need warp power, at least on Constitution class starships.

Do you have a quote handy? I suppose it's possible that they shunt antimatter to the torpedoes directly from the warp core, or something like that...

But it seems damn odd. They're nothing more then missiles, after all. You don't need a ship with a powerful reactor to fire missiles.

Here's the primary quote, note that Scotty does not distinguish weapon types here at all; he's very all-inclusive:

SCOTT : It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT : Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.

Only later when the dilithium crystals from Elaan's are fitted into the Enterprise's warp reactor, does Kirk order using photon torpedoes, not phasers to disable the Klingon battlecruiser.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

JMS, I'm not sure I agree with you on the phasers > photon torpedoes bit. But, there's one piece of evidence that you didn't mention that suggests exactly what you're saying. Did you ever see the ENT episode "In a Mirror Darkly" where the Defiant is used to whip the Alpha/Beta quadrants into shape? Its photon torpedoes are constantly shown to be weaker then the phasers. Phasers break ships in half with a single shot. Yet the NX-class took two volleys of photon torpedoes before being destroyed.

You can see most of the battles here.

I personally chalked this up to variable yields, though that doesn't quite explain why they're firing low-yield torpedoes around.

Actually, there's another thing about this that makes life tricky. See, in the ENT era, we have the introduction of the photonic torpedo, which lets the NX-01 have a chance of hurting its contemporaries.

The photonic torpedo can lay down a three kilometer crater worth of hurt. That's not really that bad. They look almost just like the photon torpedoes of later eras. And yet the ships that outclass the main-universe NX-01 even when the NX-01 has photonic torpedoes are terribly outclassed in turn by the Defiant. Severely outclassed even when the Constitution class is manned by a skeleton crew barely familiar with its capabilities and outnumbered.

I think that the Avenger is at least a little tougher than the main universe NX class. That makes sense - remember, the mirror universe humans somehow conquered Vulcan, and so the NX class was constructed using the full benefits of captured Vulcan technology that in the main universe, the Vulcans had not yet shared.

I think there is something to be said for the ship not having been at full power when it destroyed the NX with two phaser blasts (each dual-beam) plus a half dozen torpedoes, but the NX was breaking apart with the second phaser blast. The Andorian ships exploded with a single phaser blast each. (I see only two beams on YouTube from the angle, but there should be quad beams if it's a maximum forward blast.)

So what the real difference in the military technology of the 22nd century and the 23rd? The photon vs photonic torpedoes? Or phasers powered by an engine capable of propelling the million-ton (nearly solid tritanium brick) Constitution class well over ten times the speed for well over ten times the distance?

I know it's a little counterintuitive to say that phasers are the main power of Starfleet, especially when Voyager's torpedoes may be stronger than its phasers, the Defiant's quantum torpedoes are a mainstay of its firepower, and when the NX-01 is a clear exception. In Enterprise, phase cannon are indisputably weaker than photonic torpedoes.

But it's phasers - charged by larger and more powerful warp cores - that make the difference between the real ships of the line and the lightweights, and it is phasers that make up the most of their firepower. And Kane is right that the ships of the line definitely have a lot more staying power. The Scimitar is a great example of that principle.

[Mike DiCenso]

So what the real difference in the military technology of the 22nd century and the 23rd? The photon vs photonic torpedoes? Or phasers powered by an engine capable of propelling the million-ton (nearly solid tritanium brick) Constitution class well over ten times the speed for well over ten times the distance?

Whatever else, the phase cannon of the 22nd century is not a phaser, both in terms of raw power output, nor in the actual details of what each weapon does. The phaser is clearly even marked in the canon as being different by Mirror Archer when he states that the hand phaser he is holding can actually disintegrate a person. If the phase cannon was so closely similar, it would have at least that capability, but never once did we see that, as it acted, even on it's highest settings as a true DET weapon, scorching, burning, and causing destruction via rapid thermal expansion. The phaser certainly does all that, too, but the ability to set the disruptor effects are what really separates them.
-Mike