SWST Trolling

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:56 pm

That's bull, because no matter the ban's length, he still is allowed to return and pour crap the clever way he does until he pisses off enough people and gets plenty of warnings and after laborious works to track his bs.
It's totally silly. The longer the ban, and the higher the chances that new people register here and know nothing of him and start to entertain him like we did. Plus mods may change, and fact is that work keeps piling up, and the longer the ban, the further back in history displeased members AND mods have to go, and the more material these same people have to go through, if only to remember why, ages ago, mister troll was such a nuisance.

I'm tired of this nonsense about learning. There's nothing to learn. What you need to understand is that by rejecting him by small increments is completely detrimental to all of us, save him.

Four or five successive bans is more than enough to let someone prove if he is willing to learn anything or not.
I mean look at it for crissake! That's a huge quantity of bans. Someone who's not troublesome has no reason to reach that amount of bans, and someone who can learn anything doesn't need that many bans to get it.

If there's one thing that was right at SBC about their ban system was that, the amount of bans needed to be finally off. The rest was crap but at least they didn't have that stupid step by step eternally temporary ban system.

I'd rather leave than stay on a board where I find the moderation system inappropriate and particularly irritating on the long term. And term being the word here.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:40 am

I'm sorry to see you go that way. But the decision is not mine to make at this point for how the system of banning someone here works. I'm hoping that JMS will accept that there is more than ample evidence of trolling, and effect the requested permaban.
-Mike

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Praeothmin
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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:34 pm

Go then...
'cause you know, you could ignore the idiot if he truly annoyed you...
I mostly do now, except when he posts funny remarks like the one about an ISD soloing the Federation... :)

But the system, if JMS would stop reversing the bans, would work...

But the bottom line is, SWST is just an annoyong Troll which one can easily ignore...

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:23 pm

No one can truly ignore a troll allowed free roam. I already told you how why even if trying your best not to read him, you'll get disturbed by the mere fact that he posts, that his posts can close to other people's posts, that you must be sure not to be reading his post by mistake, notably after some nested quoting, etc.
Ignoring people is just not the way I do things. See, ignoring him requires that I actively try not to cross his posts, that I mentally refrain from seeing all the bullshit he writes, and hoping that he doesn't continue posting shit. And hope, of course, that he never finds how to produce a sock puppet account and gets around former bans.
Turning an eye and hoping problems caused by trolls will go away is not the way a board must handle trolls. If you don't get it, you're fools.

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Praeothmin
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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:05 pm

And by issuing ultimatums, you're acting like a child...

I'm not saying the idiot will go away, but you can easily scroll over his drivel when you read replies...

I don't want to see you go, Mr. O, but I don't care for childish ultimatums either...

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:35 pm

Just to say that Mr O and the rest of you are allowing his trolling to cause problems on this board and that you are better than this.

I would hate to see this place turn into a SDN parody where people get banned for disagreeing but id also hate it to become like SB.com where the mods behave like spoiled children.

If we cannot deal with one asshole then we deserve everything we get tbh.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:02 pm

I agree. I think this setting of ultimatum threats won't sway JMS, and if SWST is truly trolling, then it plays right into his hands to disrupt the board.
-Mike

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:41 am

I've spent some time thinking about this, and some time asking myself the question:

Would any persistently pro-SW poster be able to come here and not have a crowd clamoring to ban them? I think the answer, at this point, is no; and I'm not fond of this idea. I feel as if most of the complaints about SWST are rooted in the fact that he is outnumbered and stubborn.

I also feel as if I am nearly alone in this. To judge from what I have seen in this thread, nearly the entire community seems lined up behind wanting to see SWST to go regardless of what justifications are used.

So I'm done. The experiment has failed. I do not wish to destroy the community; I will still host the website, update the board software, periodically delete spambots, and other necessary administrative tasks that the moderators cannot do, but I'm done trying to enforce a code that the community has stopped believing in. I am therefore walking away from my position as a court of last appeal and away from the helm of this ship.

Mike, since Praeothmin has chosen to resign, this leaves it your ball game for the moment while whatever policy modifications are being made. The Security Officer group has - or should have - full permissions to the Rules forum section. I will add or remove users from that group on request as seems legitimate. I can be contacted via PM or e-mail, but am not likely to be reading posts in this or the other forum sections.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:53 am

I'm not sure that I'm following this. The implication is that you are SWST, and that you were testing the limits of the community. Furthermore, I would say that regardless of who SWST really is, the fact is that he/she/it went far beyond mere debating or being a bit stubborn on the issues, but as pointed out in this thread, deliberately kept resetting the debates, spinning off new threads to avoid issues, and generally just acted in a way intended to provoke people by ignoring evidence.

I mean, it's not like it's the first time we've ever had a pro-Wars debater here, even a stubborn one as a look at Kane Starkiller's posts will show. Yet there is a far higher respect quotient for Kane than SWST, and no calls to my recollection for his being banned from here. Ask yourself carefully why that is. And Mr. Oragahn isn't really pro-Trek, he's pro-StarGate and yet has largely been at the forefront of the fight to ban SWST. This on top of his being a victim of moderator abuse on SBC, so I'm not sure what you feel has failed here.

There's only so much tolerance, even a board like this one, can show towards a person dedicated to twisting the rules.
-Mike

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:11 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:I'm not sure that I'm following this. The implication is that you are SWST, and that you were testing the limits of the community.
No; this is not the case. Let me state this clearly once and for the record: I have never had any sockpuppets debating on SFJ, and the only additional accounts I have had on SFJ are non-posting test accounts utilized for administrative purposes (e.g., SecOffTest belongs to me).

I don't have the spare time to carry out the sort of posting activity SWST has engaged in. You should know this.

The experiment of SFJ was, in the first place, whether or not we could have a forum in which pro-SW and pro-ST VS debaters engage politely and constructively with each other. It's this mission that I had in mind in making my statement.
Furthermore, I would say that regardless of who SWST really is, the fact is that he/she/it went far beyond mere debating or being a bit stubborn on the issues, but as pointed out in this thread, deliberately kept resetting the debates, spinning off new threads to avoid issues, and generally just acted in a way intended to provoke people by ignoring evidence.
I would agree that some of SWST's behavior has constituted trolling, e.g., creating the FSM thread. I am not of the opinion that all the behavior that has inflamed negative reactions nearly unanimously among the community, however, should be considered trolling or ban-worthy.

Since this difference in judgment seems irreconcilable, it's either seize the reins back myself and try to impose my will on the community, possibly destroying it in the process, or walk off the bridge and leave the conn to you. I have neither the time nor inclination for the former of those two choices.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:42 pm

First, let me say I never, ever believed that there was even a remote possibility that JMS was SWST...
This is beyond absurd...
And while I disagree with his handling of SWST, it's not my board, and so I simply resigned because I felt there was no longer anything useful I could do as a Mod, IMO...
I hold no resentment over JMS, and no ill will, which is why I don't agree with him stopping to try and enforce the rules as he sees them...

While I do agree SWST is a Troll, and not just a stubborn poster, I believe people could simply ignore him without it affecting our ability to debate in an intelligent manner...
Mr. O said it would be too long to scroll past his posts...
Bullshit...
As soon as you see his name on the post, scroll down and go to the next poster...
It's what I mostly do, except for the odd comment on some gems of his...

SWST cannot, in any way, be compared to Kane, or any other Pro-Wars posters who have come here before (well, except maybe Younglad)...
Kane and Co actually brought intelligent arguments, and when faced with evidence which undermined their position, admitted it, and found new ways to explain their position, and someitmes brought fresh ideas to the debate...
I miss Kane, and I wish he were here right now to show SWST how to properly defend SW...

JMS, instead of resigning as the Big boss around here, could you not, instead, simply make the ruless 100% (or at least 90%) clearer?
The way, Mike and the new Mod will be in a better position to rule and warn properly, and by properly I mean according to your rules...

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:53 pm

While i bailed on getting anything from him early on that was of any worth some of you guys continued to try and i can see how frustrating it became.

However to say the experiment failed is a bit harsh when no limitations were present or available in regards to continued and deliberate behaviour and as a open forum ALL frustrations were presented openly and discussed with all the emotional crap that goes along with it.

Admittedly i am not the person to come to for advise on boundless tolerance in regards to annoying individuals but to claim failure because people do not have infinite patience and tolerance i would say is a flawed experiment from the get go.

The very fact his points were addressed and his MANY threads replied to over and over shows far more than the fact that after considerable provocation and clear trolling people eventually expressed their frustrations.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:18 pm

Hello,

I had not enough time to participate in any debates. And to be honest, the endless debates - especially with SWST - are getting tiresome. That's why you haven't heard anything from me in the last months.

But I'm still interested in this board and am reading from time to time the more interesting threads - as this thread.

The problem here is - in my opinion - very simple: You need clear proceeding rules, which have to be obeyed from the moderators. These rules can be similar to the basics of the Criminal Procedure Rules as they are applied worldwide.

Such rules have to be installed by JMS, who should also be responsible to ensure their adherence.

That's why I can't approve of JMS stepping back from his position as "court of appeal". I understand that he does not want to control each sanction, a moderator has issued. My suggestion is that JMS limits his control to violations of the proceeding rules done by the moderators and submitted by the appellant. With other words: He does not control the decision itself but if the proceedings until the decision was made were obeyed. And this only when the appellant claims detailed that the proceeding rules were violated.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Khas » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:43 pm

Praeothmin wrote:First, let me say I never, ever believed that there was even a remote possibility that JMS was SWST...
This is beyond absurd...
And while I disagree with his handling of SWST, it's not my board, and so I simply resigned because I felt there was no longer anything useful I could do as a Mod, IMO...
I hold no resentment over JMS, and no ill will, which is why I don't agree with him stopping to try and enforce the rules as he sees them...

While I do agree SWST is a Troll, and not just a stubborn poster, I believe people could simply ignore him without it affecting our ability to debate in an intelligent manner...
Mr. O said it would be too long to scroll past his posts...
Bullshit...
As soon as you see his name on the post, scroll down and go to the next poster...
It's what I mostly do, except for the odd comment on some gems of his...

SWST cannot, in any way, be compared to Kane, or any other Pro-Wars posters who have come here before (well, except maybe Younglad)...
Kane and Co actually brought intelligent arguments, and when faced with evidence which undermined their position, admitted it, and found new ways to explain their position, and someitmes brought fresh ideas to the debate...
I miss Kane, and I wish he were here right now to show SWST how to properly defend SW...

JMS, instead of resigning as the Big boss around here, could you not, instead, simply make the ruless 100% (or at least 90%) clearer?
The way, Mike and the new Mod will be in a better position to rule and warn properly, and by properly I mean according to your rules...
I also miss Kane. He was, while a bit stubborn, a very positive Pro-Wars debater, something I haven't seen that often. That, and his snarking at Youngla was funny as hell. I also miss The Dude. And l33telboi.

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Re: SWST Trolling

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:43 pm

There have been a number of replies there that I find both depressing and infuriating, as well as ultimately and honestly worrying.
My ultimatum was to push things, because I think this is a question that absolutely needs to be solved, and I think you're capable of it, if only after reasonable and balanced judgment and thinking.

First of all, Mike.
Mike DiCenso wrote:I agree. I think this setting of ultimatum threats won't sway JMS, and if SWST is truly trolling, then it plays right into his hands to disrupt the board.
-Mike
This... is just not believable at all.
After all this time, you really have to ask if he's truly trolling?
Following all the hard work you went through, is it the lifting of decisions of banishment which make you doubt so much what has been fairly obvious to everybody?
Do you think asking for his gentle and nice person to be kicked out of this place, once and for all, helps disrupting his board, instead of, I don't know... letting him disrupt this board with excess of naive and touching tolerance?
Get a grip. You do know he's trolling. There's no if whatsoever, and there never will. If you doubt that, if you need to refresh your memory, just take a look at how he bumped the BDZ thread. See what he's really trying to do and what he really wants to avoid doing. Do you see any honesty in that? Can you?


KDM,
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Just to say that Mr O and the rest of you are allowing his trolling to cause problems on this board and that you are better than this.

I would hate to see this place turn into a SDN parody where people get banned for disagreeing but id also hate it to become like SB.com where the mods behave like spoiled children.

If we cannot deal with one asshole then we deserve everything we get tbh.
There is one single way to deal with the guy, it's the permaban. Anything else is simply nonsense and a great deal of disrespect towards honest and decent members here, who will have to cope, in a way or another, with the same troll when he will return, and go through the same idiotic process of cats and mice, gathering information like some lunatic secret service repeatedly, restarting the same absurd verbal dance and forcing ourselves through hypermnesia, just to be sure that we're fair towards our Holy Slow Learner.
Let's consider ourselves lucky, people, that this little community has been tormented by only one serious troll, because there's like a shit ton of them out there, probably far more ferocious and cunning. The modest size of the website also explains why his misbehaviour stuck out like a sore thumb, and I'm pretty sure no one here wants to run a collective experiment by welcoming a handful more of them; because that website is presently not suited at all for such an event.
Currently, a troll invasion would make this board collapse.
The greatest lesson isn't for SWST to learn, but for mods and JMS.

There is still no sign of permaban despite most of us wishing for SWST to be dealt with once and for all.
Surely it's not a democracy, but it's not a gulag either. People can leave at any time.
We've already lost l33telboi and Mith, WILGA* as well, plus that other bloke from SDN. And others.

*By the time I started writing this, WILGA had not posted yet.



Now Praeothmin. This is easily the harshest part of it all. I'll establish my point of view, again, perhaps in more details, and not take gloves in order to point out what I find wrong with the way you handled things.
Praeothmin wrote:And by issuing ultimatums, you're acting like a child...

I'm not saying the idiot will go away, but you can easily scroll over his drivel when you read replies...
Simply put, I've already been over this, and it's just not so easy. It isn't just about me, but about all other members willing to discuss here, who have gotten, or will get caught in the same turdfest again and again. Lucky you, that you're both not a moderator anymore and that we don't get many new members, because you'd have had to explain to honest people why they shouldn't debate with he who they see as honest and provoking enough (as simple methods of baiting work), and they'd break their teeth on his mace of madness, and then they'd ask you why the hell did you take so much insane pleasure in letting total punks post in threads and even pollute them. There's no pleasure in having to filter shit. SBC forced you to do so, and it sucked. You weren't allowed to openly ignore a debater, and you had better not show that you had problematic people on your ignore list.
Here, the question needn't be asked, as there's no ignore list system, and I can only wonder how good it would be on such a small community. There's barely enough debate to begin with!
Even the mere fact that I have to scroll over SWST's pseudo arguments, as you suggest, is already too much of a price to pay. It's a waste of my time.
I nor any other member here should be asked to make an effort to sort out his drivel from proper, constructive and intelligent posts.

I am very tolerant, I even went through the process of bringing up enough information before anyone else, even before mods (who mojo said should have been doing it first) so you guys could at least act appropriately and send some glorious warnings. I am very tolerant, yes, but there are limits. I knew SWST was a troll from the first days he started posting. It was absurdly glaring, it was an insult to us to let him try to prove how he was a honest-to-god debater after so many bans. 1 day, 2 days, 4 days, a week, two weeks, a month, blah blah blah and every time we had to go through that same crap over and over again.
Forcing decent members going through this was, and still is just shite. It's retarded. It's totally irresponsible, and only a sign of weakness and disrespect. That is all.
I merely hope that one day you won't have to experience, in real life, the meaning and consequences of such utterly nonsensical tolerance, as you obviously seem to enjoy it, because you'll learn that it does not pay off.
I don't want to see you go, Mr. O, but I don't care for childish ultimatums either...
Well the problem is that you're not really above reproach you know -- nor am I, but I'm making things even here, I don't like getting cornered just because I'm being vocal on something which needs to be solved. You think that I'm impressed by mods resigning at the slightest sign of the local admin overturning one or two of their decisions, and preferring to feign ignoring a troll when they actually couldn't even help but engage said troll for another round of pointless arguing?
You're the one saying to offended members that they should ignore him, and yet even you couldn't refrain from replying to his posts. You just can't, because you're here to debate, you like it.
So just drop that hypocrisy of yours, please. It's just out of place.

Besides, I don't believe that walking (crawling?) away from your responsibilities, silently, to "save that place", did anything good. What we needed was debate, confrontation, to settle this matter, not silence.
In truth you saved precisely zip and didn't take the opportunity to highlight the very problem of this forum.
My ultimatum was precisely to counter act said destructive nonchalance.

You think my ultimatum is childish? I don't think so. It was needed. It was mature and responsible, and don't ever think that because we're dealing with something as silly and futile as versus debates that the truth behind what has been going on is equally silly and puerile, because it isn't, really.
I'm puzzled at how you can't understand that the one and only way to go to get rid of a troll, is a swift permanent ban, especially after countless attempts at being nice and allowing the man to be more trouble than what he was worth.

Now, if you think that the real problem was how the enforcement of rules wasn't absolutely clear, then that, I could understand.
JMS quite admitted recently that he didn't put up a system clear enough for his mods, and even admitted that I described the proper concept and application of this very system better than he did. That's... worrying, and very problematic.
I was willing to help, but only if I saw some understanding coming from the other side. There was nothing. Breetai snapped, Mojo as well and got a ban. Well now I snapped and told you the things you needed to hear.

I really hope that SFJN doesn't turn out to be the exact opposite extreme to SBC and SDN when it comes to moderation. Allowing oneself to debate properly and freely, and defend one self's opinions is a good thing. No. Let me stress that. It's a VERY GOOD THING. But dishonesty and trouble shouldn't be met with ever loving tolerance. If only for the sake of clean debate, which always was the point of this place: few discussions, but good ones.

Otherwise my only option should be to get out of this sanitarium and leave you to enjoy your trolls all you want, "educate" them with your psychotic ban-o-thon therapies, since all you would prove would be that you simply deserved more of them.
Sadly, I'd consider all of that a failure.




Finally, JMS:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:I've spent some time thinking about this, and some time asking myself the question:

Would any persistently pro-SW poster be able to come here and not have a crowd clamoring to ban them? I think the answer, at this point, is no; and I'm not fond of this idea. I feel as if most of the complaints about SWST are rooted in the fact that he is outnumbered and stubborn.
Kane Starkiller did, and I don't remember anyone really having any problem with him, aside from heated debates, which probably earned both us some warnings.
KS left, and we can only speculate as to why (tiring of not winning ?).
Is our problem that we are just too good?
Thanatos came here (I'm picking a pro 40K here) merely because he wanted to debate you personally, and that was just an effect of his temporary activity at SDN while SBC suffered some problems.
I think the real issue is pro-Wars debaters who are too glued with Wong-Saxton material as their basis will simply never come here. They just can't. Stuck in 2002, almost ten years, like if nothing happened, doesn't work anymore, and they had not updated at all.
Other SW fans either don't know about this place or don't care about that debate.

SWST was clearly outnumbered, but he also had all the time and tools necessary to deal with each point honestly and in a focused way. He simply didn't want to. It's all his fault. That is all.

I went against SBC's pro-wars plebe almost alone in 2007 with the huge Aethersprite Delta-7 thread, and I think -but perhaps I'm doing some self pimping here- that things started to change massively from there. My works, despite all the bans I took in the face, bore fruits because honest debaters could see the value and sincerity of my argumentation, the strength of my evidence.
I had no quibbles in citing RSA when I considered that some of his work was worth it as well. That's the game, simply put. Truth and faith in my works was all I needed to win that game, and things started to change. Other threads were made, discussions were heated, some mods abused their powers and tried to stop the flood of truth, either by banning people they disliked without any defense possible, or tried to ban anti-ICS topics, but they ultimately failed. This adventure ended with a poll which completely settled the question, and reduced the ICS to forgettable gibberish only good for its drawings.

SWST failed because he just wasn't going to debate and had no good points, that's all.
Perhaps you didn't see it, but we did. We went through all his forms of twisted logic, fallacies, and it's abundantly clear that he had all the time and references he needed, and never wanted to use them intelligently. There just was no honesty. Simply none.
Two bans were more than enough. Intelligent people get it at this point: quit or improve. SWST did neither.
I also feel as if I am nearly alone in this. To judge from what I have seen in this thread, nearly the entire community seems lined up behind wanting to see SWST to go regardless of what justifications are used.

So I'm done. The experiment has failed. I do not wish to destroy the community; I will still host the website, update the board software, periodically delete spambots, and other necessary administrative tasks that the moderators cannot do, but I'm done trying to enforce a code that the community has stopped believing in. I am therefore walking away from my position as a court of last appeal and away from the helm of this ship.

Mike, since Praeothmin has chosen to resign, this leaves it your ball game for the moment while whatever policy modifications are being made. The Security Officer group has - or should have - full permissions to the Rules forum section. I will add or remove users from that group on request as seems legitimate. I can be contacted via PM or e-mail, but am not likely to be reading posts in this or the other forum sections.
I don't think you're alone, and shouldn't be, but you've been too lenient. Globally, one can feel when problems start to rise when even the meaning of words begin to be altered very rapidly.
Bans first become "temporary bans". Those "temporary bans" then simply get called "bans" by all, and then, in the end, what a real ban is -permanent ban- is stuff of legend, a thing of the past.
I also don't see why you should host this website if you don't even take any pleasure or responsibility in managing it. It's an antithesis you have here.
If you can't enjoy it, if you think it's time to close, then allow us to have all topics be archived or something.
Or, eventually, if hosting this very forum turns out to be a problem, then -and I'm not sure if I already suggested it- perhaps it could be merged or hosted by some other website, without losing anything of what's been previously written, of course.
But that's just a sad way to finish things.

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