Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by mojo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:31 pm

maybe i'm misunderstanding something here, but if the mods here admit that they all realize that swst is trolling the board and has been trolling the board from his very first post, and that there is effort being expended toward the goal of removing him, why in the world isn't he getting warnings every time he pulls the same crap over and over again? the explanation that there are no rules specifically forbidding the things he does is laaaaame. there is only one damn rule!
JMS wrote:In truth, this board has one rule:

All discourse is to be reasonable, polite, and informative.
that is the vaguest rule i've ever seen in my life, and what's worse, it seems to me that the purpose of that vagueness is probably to allow staff to interpret the law for themselves. there's no specific rule against this thing or that thing BECAUSE WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT YOU WON'T BE BOUND BY RULES THAT WOULD INHIBIT YOUR ABILITY TO MODERATE AS YOU SEE FIT. YOU choose what constitutes reasonable, polite, informative debate. you admit that he's a problem and that he does not debate in a reasonable way. isn't that enough right there? oragahn just gave you a huge list of complaints and he backs it up with evidence. if you really do want to deal with swst, why didn't you give swst a warning for each of those? i'm not a mod and i don't mean to tell you your job, but that seems like an awful wasted opportunity to move forward toward that goal. warn him for each point on oragahn's list and that's a freaking ban right there and your concern that he could make a case for the idea that sfj is a bunch of hypocrites falls apart! how can he argue that he didn't deserve what he got if even the most cursory glance at his posting history shows otherwise? EVERYONE is aware of what he's doing. and i understand that jms is not particularly thrilled with the idea of permabanning and that makes your job harder, but if you keep throwing warnings at swst every time he ignores evidence or passes all thresholds of rudeness or reboots arguments or argues a definition of a word with a dictionary jms will be forced to keep bailing him out every other day or eventually let the ban go through. it's not as if your hands are completely tied.
as mods and as members who love this board you staff have a responsibility to protect the board from harm. even if that means stretching the boundaries a bit when necessary. if jms does not see that swst is worthy of banning, you have a responsibility to make him understand or even to go around him if you must. this is his forum, of course, but when you accepted the position as a mod, wasn't it because you love this place and don't want to see it hurt? is the loyalty, in the end, for jms or for sfj? if the answer is jms then we're fucked. if it's sfj, though, it's time to stop complaining about how hard it is to do anything about swst and use the authority you've been given for the good of the board. interpret every dumbass dirty debate tactic he uses as 'unreasonable' and warn him for every fucking use of those tactics. he'd be gone in a week as the warnings hit him by the dozen! i could give you at least ten examples from the fsm thread.

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:36 pm

Again, take it up with the big guy...

We do our jobs following his rules, and no, we cannot "go around him", nor do we wish to...

I will endeavour to keep this site as polite as possible, but JMS will have to decide when he's tired of SWST's bullshit trolling behavior...

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:30 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Again, take it up with the big guy...
Let me get this straight. We can report people with the report button but when we do so we in fact have to post here. When we have an issue with the moderation, we post in the Technical forum but in fact we have to PM mods.

<_<
>_>
We do our jobs following his rules, and no, we cannot "go around him", nor do we wish to...
am not asking for mods to go around JMS. I'd consider that extremely impolite since there wouldn't be a forum there if it wasn't for JMS's effort to set one up to begin with. I think we're just saying you've been kind enough with SWST past this point, and it's just hurting JMS' efforts, even if he doesn't realize it yet.

Now for the reminder I have no problem with the warning I got. But this is not the issue.
I will endeavour to keep this site as polite as possible, but JMS will have to decide when he's tired of SWST's bullshit trolling behavior...
I know, and it's his board, etc.
You think it's pleasant to complain so as to obtain something from a mod or the admin? I don't even begin to use the report button until several threads when dealing with some member that starts to become problematic.
It's not the way I deal with things personally, but I think we have a "serious" problem here.
Now if JMS is so attached to free debate as to let anything get inside, even the worse, so be it, but with doors so wide open, I don't see how he'll manage to retain several members inside any longer either.



Mike DiCenso wrote:Just a point of order Breetai. It was Praeo that issued the warning to Mr. Oragahn, not me. The problem with the insults thing is that once you allow it, you open up a whole new can of worms. The other problem here is that we have to treat everyone the same, regardless. You break a rule, you get a "friendly" or "official" warning, and or a ban.

And believe me, I don't like any of this any more than you do. But I'm playing by the rules here because I don't want SWST to martyr himself on my watch. That's what I think this all is coming down to. Trolling to see if he gets a permaban so he can proclaim us all hypocrites.
-Mike
But that's the point. Who the hell is going to pay attention to his claims of martyrdom? SDN? So they can attempt to strawman this whole position on netiquette and point fingers at us as they can finally show that JMS also silences the opposition? We know it's bullshit and as I said, if anything, if they read this, they could already be chuckling for how ridiculous this is getting because of a lack of strong management of this board when exceptional cases such as when obvious trolls manifest.

When are you going to deal with my report, btw?

Look it up, Mojo quoted that part of the rules which are relevant to my report. SWST has ran the ICS thread in the mud. He has not been reasonable. He's hardly informative.
If JMS bails him out, that still doesn't prevent mods from applying rules down to the letter. Then it's JMS' responsability to keep a member who's been warned and banned several times.
I'd say do your job regardless of what JMS says. From there, the situation will be clearer for everybody, including JMS, and he'll be in a better position to assess SWST's quality.




mojo wrote:maybe i'm misunderstanding something here, but if the mods here admit that they all realize that swst is trolling the board and has been trolling the board from his very first post, and that there is effort being expended toward the goal of removing him, why in the world isn't he getting warnings every time he pulls the same crap over and over again? the explanation that there are no rules specifically forbidding the things he does is laaaaame. there is only one damn rule!
JMS wrote:In truth, this board has one rule:

All discourse is to be reasonable, polite, and informative.
that is the vaguest rule i've ever seen in my life, and what's worse, it seems to me that the purpose of that vagueness is probably to allow staff to interpret the law for themselves. there's no specific rule against this thing or that thing BECAUSE WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT YOU WON'T BE BOUND BY RULES THAT WOULD INHIBIT YOUR ABILITY TO MODERATE AS YOU SEE FIT. YOU choose what constitutes reasonable, polite, informative debate. you admit that he's a problem and that he does not debate in a reasonable way. isn't that enough right there? oragahn just gave you a huge list of complaints and he backs it up with evidence. if you really do want to deal with swst, why didn't you give swst a warning for each of those? i'm not a mod and i don't mean to tell you your job, but that seems like an awful wasted opportunity to move forward toward that goal. warn him for each point on oragahn's list and that's a freaking ban right there and your concern that he could make a case for the idea that sfj is a bunch of hypocrites falls apart! how can he argue that he didn't deserve what he got if even the most cursory glance at his posting history shows otherwise? EVERYONE is aware of what he's doing. and i understand that jms is not particularly thrilled with the idea of permabanning and that makes your job harder, but if you keep throwing warnings at swst every time he ignores evidence or passes all thresholds of rudeness or reboots arguments or argues a definition of a word with a dictionary jms will be forced to keep bailing him out every other day or eventually let the ban go through. it's not as if your hands are completely tied.
as mods and as members who love this board you staff have a responsibility to protect the board from harm. even if that means stretching the boundaries a bit when necessary. if jms does not see that swst is worthy of banning, you have a responsibility to make him understand or even to go around him if you must. this is his forum, of course, but when you accepted the position as a mod, wasn't it because you love this place and don't want to see it hurt? is the loyalty, in the end, for jms or for sfj? if the answer is jms then we're fucked. if it's sfj, though, it's time to stop complaining about how hard it is to do anything about swst and use the authority you've been given for the good of the board. interpret every dumbass dirty debate tactic he uses as 'unreasonable' and warn him for every fucking use of those tactics. he'd be gone in a week as the warnings hit him by the dozen! i could give you at least ten examples from the fsm thread.
What I see with this rule is that SWST is violating it anytime he approaches his keyboard and post something here.
What is reasonable and informative in his posts?
True, there is *some* stuff, some times, that is literally drowning in a sea of urine.

I can't even understand how the rulings were reversed when all warnings, save perhaps one, were all fair and non biased.

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:26 pm

Mr. O. wrote:I can't even understand how the rulings were reversed when all warnings, save perhaps one, were all fair and non biased.
Neither can I, which is why, being sure that any rulings I could make on his dishonesty would be reversed, I will no longer waste my time doing so...

I will simply issue warnings for the blatant violations of the rules, and leave the rest to JMS...

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:27 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Mr. O. wrote:I can't even understand how the rulings were reversed when all warnings, save perhaps one, were all fair and non biased.
Neither can I, which is why, being sure that any rulings I could make on his dishonesty would be reversed, I will no longer waste my time doing so...

I will simply issue warnings for the blatant violations of the rules, and leave the rest to JMS...
At this point, why don't you quit modhood?

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:39 am

he's our only ally in this fight it seems..if he steps down we're alone against SWST preao does need to be An Hero to us all no sir-Y!!

and I'm frankly a little disappointed at JMS I've emailed him a few times about this issue and his own reversals and more then one poster has called him to answer for this nonsense and the man has constantly no showed.

I expected that from the other side not him I'm disillusioned now

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:23 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
Mr. O. wrote:I can't even understand how the rulings were reversed when all warnings, save perhaps one, were all fair and non biased.
Neither can I, which is why, being sure that any rulings I could make on his dishonesty would be reversed, I will no longer waste my time doing so...

I will simply issue warnings for the blatant violations of the rules, and leave the rest to JMS...
At this point, why don't you quit modhood?
Why would you want him to quit? Having mods who are relucant to do this, actually makes for the best ones since they are more likely to do the right thing, than one who craves the power, and seeks to abuse it.
-Mike

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by mojo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:02 am

idiocy. what i suggested is perfectly within the rules of the forum, and when i said you might have to go around jms, i wasn't suggesting mutiny. i was suggesting that you have a responsibility to protect the forum. why do you think oragahn suggested that you just give up the job? because warning swst only when he does something so blatant that mods can't hide their heads in the sand rather than face the possibility of jms disagreeing with them for doing the job he chose them for is not doing your job. of course there is no response to the idea that perhaps the lack of specific rules for any possible wrongdoing is intentional, or the idea that you simply warn swst every time he shits on the forum and calls it a post and let jms decide for himself if the warnings are what he meant by 'unreasonable'.
i feel the same as breetai does about praeo, which is what makes it so bothersome. he seems sincere in his desire to stop the ridiculousness here. he understands that it needs to stop. he's just caught between a rock and a hard place since jms decided to choose having at least ONE hardcore warsie voice over none, regardless of quality. what does jms care if he loses one or two members over this? there are plenty of trekkies here. just the one sdn-style warsie.
it's baffling that people keep saying they don't understand jms' reasoning in regards to swst. i can only attribute it to reluctance to risk jms' disapproval or anger, because it's perfectly obvious and he basically admitted as much in the warnings thread. without swst anti-trek debate pretty much ceases altogether. sure there are warsies on our board, but the problem is that all of OUR warsies are capable of conceding points without bursting into flame. there's no chance of real battle! civ001 and i have been complaining lately that we showed up to the debate too late to see the apparently epic battles that were fought by the major players on each side. jms was clearly one of the elite warriors during that time, garnering respect and praise from the trekkie side and putting fear into the hearts of the few saxton/wong warsies capable of entertaining independent thought. is it surprising that after a period of relative peace between the two sides, he'd be reluctant to get rid of a new source of saxton/wong debate? there's potential there for a return to his glory days. even better, swst offers an INFINITE source. his absolute inability to concede even the smallest point, his refusal to even acknowledge any piece of evidence he can't rebut with a canned sdn argument, his tactic of fleeing any thread in which wong's- i mean HIS arguments are being debunked left and right and then posting those same arguments in another thread and starting over, his rebooting of debates that have been settled for ages.. all these things are probably DESIRABLE to jms because he never has to stop debating against a wong/saxtonite proxy!

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by sonofccn » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:20 pm

@Mojo:

So if I am understanding you correctly you are suggesting JMS is delibertly keeping SWST around to keep the debate alive? To maintain board interest with a noisy dissenter among the ranks. Color me skeptical of that line of thought, assuming the whole thing wasn't one of your jokes that I didn't get again, it seems to cut across everything JMS has professed to stand for as well I'm not sure SWST is really adding much volume to the board. At least as it portains to the actual versus argument, he pops into a dead or dying thread makes a few wild accusations that more annoy than anything maybe trades a few reply with a poster or two than vanishes again. Compared to the "ink" slung complaining about him in the technical forum I'm not sure he's really adding anything debatewise.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:At this point, why don't you quit modhood?
Isn't that a little harsh? Praeothmin is trying to solve the issue as best he can and I don't see how the problem will improve with his termination and could possibly decline from it.
Admiral Breetai wrote:and I'm frankly a little disappointed at JMS I've emailed him a few times about this issue and his own reversals and more then one poster has called him to answer for this nonsense and the man has constantly no showed.
Well can't speak in regards to sending him emails but the one time I compiled a complaint list against his...softness regarding SWST he did reply to me. But if he's constantly and coherently ignored you that is unsettling. I mean did he answer the first time or direct you to a response or simply never responded at all?

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:25 pm

I'm not sure where JMS was during the heydays of SW v ST, but I'm sure there are prices which simply aren't worth paying for the sake of activity. JMS doesn't even really post much, so I'm not sure how this would feed his appetite for challenge or else, and I think there are enough members capable of challenging him in a debate better than SWST, including me.
What I think happens is that JMS is stuck in a rather extreme end of debate libertarianism.
I may be wrong, but it seems that he thinks free speech will still prevail no matter what, and that it will take an effort from everyone to exhaust SWST out of this debate, but it will happen at some point. Like a sum of small pieces make a whole picture in the end.
The trouble is that it requires lots of patience from everyone, it erodes each member's ability to enjoy the board, and all that in a race against time where there's no indication that it could end anytime soon. It's a mutual toll, a cooperative marathon wherein we're supposed to act like a glued community, all united against one viral intruder.
Safe that it doesn't happen that way. We're all too different from each other, with too different lives and goals, and it's been clear that there's no such union here.

There are other possible reasons as to why JMS gives SWST so much leeway, but I don't want to imagine that they could even hold a nut of truth.

This is a private forum, and I think it could be a good thing if JMS could clean his board like he'd clean his house if SWST was invited and then kept being the problem that he is.
He was given way too many chances to correct his act, and he refused.

Now, I send a PM to JMS. I'll simply tell him that there's that thread which he needs to read.

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:39 pm

sonofccn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:At this point, why don't you quit modhood?
Isn't that a little harsh? Praeothmin is trying to solve the issue as best he can and I don't see how the problem will improve with his termination and could possibly decline from it.
It wasn't meant to be harsh. I just don't see the point for Praeothmin (and even Mike) to remain mods if, first, they obviously can't enjoy their "job" of keeping this place clean (a place they appreciate, obviously), and secondly, if they're condemned to a half-arsed and very selective level of surveillance where they have to turn heads in light of certain misbehaviours.
This makes for a very broken system, one that is not very fair. See, I don't think one insult every two weeks (!) hurts that board. In fact, it's just as much a right as being able to speak out your mind. But what SWST does, that is hurting this place.
And it is only hurting this place because JMS allows him to remain there.
Now fine, we can all ignore him, but then why was I alone doing that? And more, I came here to debate, not to stare away.

The delegation of moderation was a fine test, but it has run its course and now we see that the board was better ruled when JMS and only JMS made decisions.
At least the picture was clearer.

Oh shit, if this doesn't get solved presto, I'm gone off this place. I think there's nothing worse than a board that openly supports trolls' drive to disrupt the quality and cohesion of a nice forum in light of whatever stupid testes-less ultra-leftist rule that wants to give any damn retarded cunt in the world a right to endlessly pollute the lives of other correct and kind people.
I'm not going to ignore him. I'm saying that he gets the fuck out of this place, or I do.
Capice?

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:04 pm

I think we need to keep people civil and insults in check because it can rapidly turn into a flame fest, just look at how some SWST threads, or even some KSW threads...
Mr. O wrote:I'm not going to ignore him. I'm saying that he gets the fuck out of this place, or I do.Capice?
It's your choice, and your call...

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by sonofccn » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:43 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It wasn't meant to be harsh. I just don't see the point for Praeothmin (and even Mike) to remain mods if, first, they obviously can't enjoy their "job" of keeping this place clean (a place they appreciate, obviously), and secondly, if they're condemned to a half-arsed and very selective level of surveillance where they have to turn heads in light of certain misbehaviours.
Well you made it sound like you had lost all faith and he should just give it up for what amounts to a single poster skating by in the gray area of the rules. I am of the opinion having Mike and Praeothmin "on guard" is better even if they are having trouble "convicting" SWST than no guard at all so to speak.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This makes for a very broken system, one that is not very fair. See, I don't think one insult every two weeks (!) hurts that board. In fact, it's just as much a right as being able to speak out your mind. But what SWST does, that is hurting this place.
The issue is that one insult every two weeks is against the board rules, while SWST may break their spirit he mostly stays within their confines.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh shit, if this doesn't get solved presto, I'm gone off this place.
If that is how you feel. Personally I don't find him that big of an issue as you and the rest find him. An irritant yes but only so. One that will leave/fade away at somepoint in time.

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:46 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh shit, if this doesn't get solved presto, I'm gone off this place. I think there's nothing worse than a board that openly supports trolls' drive to disrupt the quality and cohesion of a nice forum in light of whatever stupid testes-less ultra-leftist rule that wants to give any damn retarded cunt in the world a right to endlessly pollute the lives of other correct and kind people.
I'm not going to ignore him. I'm saying that he gets the fuck out of this place, or I do.
Capice?
I think you're way over-reacting to SWST. But consider this; if you leave now, his trolling as you call it will have been successful, and the only person to lose out will be you. If you ignore SWST as other people have started doing, he'll go away eventually, or he'll slip up, as he has been recently doing, and get banned. He's only one away from another ban, you know.

Don't make yourself a casualty before then.
-Mike

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Re: Mr. Oragahn and Mojo's warning's fair?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:55 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:he's our only ally in this fight it seems..if he steps down we're alone against SWST preao does need to be An Hero to us all no sir-Y!!

and I'm frankly a little disappointed at JMS I've emailed him a few times about this issue and his own reversals and more then one poster has called him to answer for this nonsense and the man has constantly no showed.

I expected that from the other side not him I'm disillusioned now
You wouldn't be alone. I'm the one who pushed through the first and second successful bans on SWST. How did I do it? It was steadily and carefully building a strong case against him. For good measure I ran the first by JMS to make sure it was foolproof and it could not be appealed. But having Praeo continue as a mod is good. When I was busy with real-life concerns, Praeo dropped in and issued the current warnings against SWST.
-Mike

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