Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

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Praeothmin
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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:38 pm

Kor?
The big issue I have with your reply is this:
You pretty saw Serafina stopped providing ecidence and proof of anything, and you knew she was getting on your nerves.
You had the very simple opportunity to leave the debate and stop insulting her, but you didn't.
I've told you on ASVS, and I'll tell you again here:
The rules apply to everyone, you knew you weren't allowed to fling insults, however deserved, and yet you did, repeatedly.
You deserve a Ban, IMO, and it doesn't matter whether Serafina's as punished as you or not, as I showed with my speeding analogy, you both knew you were going over the allowed speeds limits, and you did so knowingly, also knowing what getting caught would mean for you.
You broke the rules, man up and accept the consequences...

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:01 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Kor?
The big issue I have with your reply is this:
You pretty saw Serafina stopped providing ecidence and proof of anything, and you knew she was getting on your nerves.
You had the very simple opportunity to leave the debate and stop insulting her, but you didn't.

Meaning that the rules now protect and support somebody joining the forum while JMS is away trolling and insulting us until he returns and if we reply or return the insults we get banned, and while the troll does as well they do not care because this not a forum the use properly anyway.

The rules are supposed to protect as well as punish but as they are it means i and any other member must take it in the ass until JMS returns. I posted a complaint and sent a PM regarding long before i returned a insult just as the rules demand, NOTHING was done about it and as the rules let me down and did not protect me i dealt with the situation myself.

The rules you talk about let me down.

I've told you on ASVS, and I'll tell you again here:
The rules apply to everyone, you knew you weren't allowed to fling insults, however deserved, and yet you did, repeatedly.
You deserve a Ban, IMO, and it doesn't matter whether Serafina's as punished as you or not, as I showed with my speeding analogy, you both knew you were going over the allowed speeds limits, and you did so knowingly, also knowing what getting caught would mean for you.
Your analogy was weak as it does not allow for a punishment that is ineffective or in this case is a big reward for one of those involved. Nor does it allow for self defence when the equivalent of the police (who i called but got no reply or help) are unavailable because they are on holiday or whatever.

Justice is not as simple as a rule book.
You broke the rules, man up and accept the consequences...
I have said il accept any punishment that has a equal negative effect on both of us.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:19 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: I have said il accept any punishment that has a equal negative effect on both of us.
That's not the way laws and rules work, unfortunately...
Anyway, I disagree with your reasoning, and it really doesn't matter because JMS is the one who'll decide on the punishment...

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:29 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: I have said il accept any punishment that has a equal negative effect on both of us.
That's not the way laws and rules work, unfortunately...
Well fortunatly we (or at least JMS) have/has the opportunity and ability at least on here to make the laws and rules "work as they were intended" and be JUST rather than not work, unfortunate and unjust.

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:37 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Meaning that the rules now protect and support somebody joining the forum while JMS is away trolling and insulting us until he returns and if we reply or return the insults we get banned, and while the troll does as well they do not care because this not a forum the use properly anyway.

The rules are supposed to protect as well as punish but as they are it means i and any other member must take it in the ass until JMS returns. I posted a complaint and sent a PM regarding long before i returned a insult just as the rules demand, NOTHING was done about it and as the rules let me down and did not protect me i dealt with the situation myself.
I think a better method of dealing with it would have been to stop replying to Serafina.

You did report post #4 in the list above, and my records show you did send me a private message on the 9th right when this started. I, frankly, messed up by not being on the spot here. But I'm not so sure three wrongs make a right.

What does make a right is remedying the situation so it won't happen again. Since I will have some very busy times with work and play coming up soon, it behooves me to address the problem directly: After four years, I probably need to appoint a moderator of sorts to help me look after the forum. My activity here is sporadic, and misbehaviour has spiked sharply this summer.

The question, then, is who.
I have said il accept any punishment that has a equal negative effect on both of us.
I think that's a little facetious. No punishment that I can offer will have an equal negative effect on both of you. That's a simple fact; you have more invested in these boards than Serafina does.

I have several choices here, and it really depends on the severity of the offences, and how effective a delayed punishment will be in any case. The main theory behind the temporary bans is to force people to cool off and reconsider their misbehaviour.

I'm going to take another couple days to decide this matter. Serafina's conduct and apparent motives have been irritating me personally, and I've been finding it hard to offer judgment I feel is objective. I would like to hear from more people if at all possible.

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by The Dude » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:02 am

Put it to a vote?

I'd say that or lock the thread and put a moratorium on the topic. If someone wants to re-open it then perhaps a temp-mod could be appointed to keep an eye on it?

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:15 am

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:In that case where do the board rules stand on harrassment as he is obviously pushing for this ban to score a victory that he failed to gain in the thread, he is essentially using the letter of the law to ignore the spirit of the law.

A temporary ban is supposedly a punishment like a driving ban but for one driver who drives sometimes multiple times every day it is a punishment, but for another who drove only once (the time of the incident) it means nothing, in fact due to the circumstances it is at least a double reward as it is punishing a person they dislike and they know that person is aware they would gain satisfaction from it.

If you can come up with a punishment that has a equal negative effect on both of us i would not bother arguing, but as it stands i would be being punished twice, once by the ban and once by knowing that he is gaining satisfaction from it. While he would not give a damn about the ban but enjoy the fact that i was inconvienienced and enjoy the fact i know he caused it.

Double punishment VS double pleasure that is not the reality of SFJ justice.
Stopping arguing with Serafina and solely showing the insults contained in her posts would have probably been far more efficient in retrospect.
But don't do that over more than one post. I was getting swallowed into such a maddening spiral of spending most of time chasing the strawmen and showing the insults, although not in a detailed manner, and it was really tiresome.
At some point, when I realized that in order to merely explain the strawmen upon strawmen and the fact that she was arguing over misinterpretations, a single section of a post dedicated to one single quote was growing out of reasonable proportions, I knew it wasn't worth it.
I'm a human being after all, I don't enjoy being treated like shit: and it's quite clear that I took a lot in that thread. I also probably have been quoted or replied to in more than half a dozen obscure private boards I don't even know about.
So I walked out of that retarded nonsense.

It is right that proving an act of trolling is hard, but when you get the feeling that you're dealing with it, I suppose the best thing to do is play by the rules and show what's wrong, and refuse the debate, even if that comes after a couple of insults from both sides. If the troll, or person perceived as a troll, then claims a victory by using your refusal to partake in his games, you report the person.
That's why I suggested a lock of the thread, because it was clear that you were not cold blooded enough to not getting dragged into this silly dance, and the dishonesty and lies might have just been plain enraging.
It wasn't worth it anymore.
Seriously, SFJN never had it that hard.

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:22 am

Praeothmin wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: I have said il accept any punishment that has a equal negative effect on both of us.
That's not the way laws and rules work, unfortunately...
Anyway, I disagree with your reasoning, and it really doesn't matter because JMS is the one who'll decide on the punishment...
On the other hand, he may have a point in that a quicker intervention could have established stronger barriers earlier on.
On the other hand, bans were issued.
I got a ban because of that thread, I'm not sure I agree with the reasons, but I moved on.
I mean, hello? Who ever got even just a strong warning here before that?

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:07 pm

After due consideration, I've concluded the only reason I did not issue a severity-based ban was because I was quite tired of Serafina's complaints, and that was clearly her preference.

I am now inclined to take Serafina's suggestion that both users be banned (again). The period of this ban will be four days. As Praeothmin has pointed out, both users very clearly knew the rules, and very clearly knew that they were violating the rules - repeatedly.

While a timely warning might have stymied the flow of insults, both users had ample chance to cool their tempers on their own as well overnight. Serafina's actions are deemed worthy of two or more warning levels, and Kor's actions are deemed worthy of three or more warning levels.

Kor, you may consider this unfair as Serafina has not even been posting these last few days. However, I do believe this is the best course of action to insure future politeness on the board. The staff will be expanded as well.

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Re: Enforcement policy notice (Serafina, Kor_Dahar_Master)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:22 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Kor, you may consider this unfair as Serafina has not even been posting these last few days.
He is likely not posting just to increase the obvious futility of banning him.

As such you should have just banned me alone.

Banning him was worthless and as such should have been disregarded as a option, by banning him as well it made a mockery of our boards supposed justice system.

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