Canon status of Clone Wars movie?

For all your discussion of canon policies, evidentiary standards, and other meta-debate issues.

Discussion is to remain cordial at all times.
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:23 am

l33telboi wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That's totally new. Is there any evidence of this? I have never seen anyone, not even a higher canon purist, claim that one would have to sort out what's from Lucas and what is not in a source which has been associated to the movies.

If that's so, we'll have to check out who wrote what in the scripts, even in TESB (did Lucas come with the Luke-Vader pater link?).
This is what Chee said about it:

Q: Are novelisations of the films considered G-level or C-level material?

A: In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.
Oh buggers, I didn't remember he also dealt with the six novelizations!
That's a problem. How do we know what was from GL, or at least hinted by him as a vague guideline, or approved by him?

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Post by 2046 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:41 am

Who is like God arbour wrote:The next question would be, what from what the various people have said canon is or what as canon counts, is indeed canon or can be counted as canon.

Is binding what Chee has said about canon or what George Lucas has said about canon?

Could it be, that both have different opinions of what canon is or what counts as canon?

And if yes, whose opinion surpass the other?

If George Lucas has explained, what he sees as canon, can we simply ignore Chee's version of canon?
I find it mildly alarming that you feel the need to ask which opinion surpasses the other.
How do we know what was from GL, or at least hinted by him as a vague guideline, or approved by him?
He line-edited the novels . . . all of them, so far as is known. Thus, if something is in the novel, it is there with -- at minimum -- tacit consent.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:50 am

Didn't he "line-edit" some recent EU stuff?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:05 pm

In some interviews Lucas has said that he sometimes has to step in to veto or approve some of the EU authors' general storyline ideas. For example, about 10 years ago, he did approve the killing off of Chewbacca in the EU storyline, even though from his (Lucas') position Chewie is still living happily ever after with all the other characters in his The One True Star Wars storyline.
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:56 pm

In »Star Wars: The Clone Wars film«, Anakin Skywalker and Count Dooku have fought against each other in the desert of Tatooine.

But according to the novelization »Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith«, both have met again on the Invisible Hand for the first time since Geonosis.
Matthew Stover in »Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith« wrote:
The entrance balcony provided an appropriate angle - far above the Jedi, looking down upon them - for Dooku to make final assessments before beginning the farce.

Like all true farce, the coming denouement would proceed with remorseless logic from its ridiculous premise: that Dooku could ever be overcome by mere Jedi. Any Jedi. What a pity his old friend Mace couldn't have joined them today; he had no doubt the Korun Master would have enjoyed the coming show.

Dooku had always preferred an educated audience.

At least Palpatine was here, shackled within the great chair at the far end of the room, the space battle whirling upon the view wall behind him as though his stark silhouette spread great wings of war. But Palpatine was less audience than he was author.

Not at all the same thing.

Skywalker gave Dooku only his back, but his blade was already out and his tall, lean frame stood frozen with anticipation: so motionless he almost seemed to shiver. Pathetic. It was an insult to call this boy a Jedi at all.

Kenobi, now - he was something else entirely: a classic of his obsolete kind. He simply stood gazing calmly up at Dooku and the super battle droids that flanked him, hands open, utterly relaxed, on his face only an expression of mild interest.

Dooku derived a certain melancholy satisfaction - a pleasurably lonely contemplation of his own unrecognized greatness - from a brief reflection that Skywalker would never understand how much thought and planning, how much work, Lord Sidious had invested in so hastily orchestrating his sham victory. Nor would he ever understand the artistry, the true mastery, that Dooku would wield in his own defeat.

But thus was life. Sacrifices must be made, for the greater good.

There was a war on, after all.

He called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling in¬side his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him.

Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along. The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center.

He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will.

Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, per¬fect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

And he played his helpless hostage role perfectly.

"Get help!" The edge of panic in his hoarse half whisper sounded real even to Dooku. "You must get help. Neither of you is any match for a Sith Lord!"

Now Skywalker turned, meeting Dooku's direct gaze for the first time since the abandoned hangar on Geonosis. His reply was clearly intended as much for Dooku as for Palpatine. "Tell that to the one Obi-Wan left in pieces on Naboo."

Hmp. Empty bravado. Maul had been an animal. A skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless.

"Anakin" In the Force, Dooku could feel Kenobi's disapproval of Skywalker's boasting; and he could also feel Kenobi's effortless self-restraint in focusing on the matter at hand. "This time, we do it together."

Dooku's sharp eye picked up the tightening of Skywalker's droid hand on his lightsaber's grip. "I was about to say exactly that."
Fine, then. Time to move this little comedy along.

Dooku leaned forward, and his cloak of armorweave spread like wings; he lifted gently into the air and descended to the main level in a slow, dignified Force-glide. Touching down at the head of the situation table, he regarded the two Jedi from under a lifted brow.

"Your weapons, please, gentlemen. Let's not make a mess of this in front of the Chancellor."

Obi-Wan lifted his lightsaber into the balanced two-handed guard of Ataro: Qui-Gon's style, and Yoda's. His blade crackled into existence, and the air smelled of lightning. "You won't escape us this time, Dooku."

"Escape you? Please." Dooku allowed his customary mild smile to spread. "Do you think I orchestrated this entire operation with the intent to escape? I could have taken the Chancellor outsystem hours ago. But I have better things to do with my life than to babysit him while I wait for the pair of you to attempt a rescue."

Skywalker brought his lightsaber to a Shien ready: hand of black-gloved durasteel cocked high at his shoulder, blade angling upward and away. "This is a little more than an attempt."

"And a little less than a rescue."

With a flourish, Dooku cast his cloak back from his right shoulder, clearing his sword arm - which he used to gesture idly at the pair of super battle droids still on the entrance balcony above. "Now please, gentlemen. Must I order the droids to open fire? That becomes so untidy, what with blaster bolts bouncing about at random. Little danger to the three of us, of course, but I should certainly hate for any harm to come to the Chancellor."

Kenobi moved toward him with a slow, hypnotic grace, as though he floated on an invisible repulsor plate. "Why do I find that difficult to believe?"

Skywalker mirrored him, swinging wide toward Dooku's flank. "You weren't so particular about bloodshed on Geonosis."

"Ah." Dooku's smile spread even farther. "And how is Senator Amidala?"

"Don't -" The thunderstorm that was Skywalker in the Force boiled with sudden power. "Don't even speak her name."

Dooku waved this aside. The lad's personal issues were too tiresome to pursue; he knew far too much already about Skywalker's messy private life. "I bear Chancellor Palpatine no ill will, foolish boy. He is neither soldier nor spy, whereas you and your friend here are both. It is only an unfortunate accident of history that he has chosen to defend a corrupt Republic against my endeavor to reform it."

"You mean destroy it.""

"The Chancellor is a civilian. You and General Kenobi, on the other hand, are legitimate military targets. It is up to you whether you will accompany me as captives -" A twitch of the Force brought his lightsaber to his hand with invisible speed, its brilliant scarlet blade angled downward at his side. "- or as corpses.''

"Now, there's a coincidence," Kenobi replied dryly as he swung around Dooku to place the Count precisely between Skywalker and himself. "You face the identical choice."
Dooku regarded each of them in turn with impregnable calm. He lifted his blade in the Makashi salute and swept it again to a low guard. "Just because there are two of you, do not presume you have the advantage."

"Oh, we know," Skywalker said. "Because there are two of you."

Dooku barely managed to restrain a jolt of surprise.

"Or maybe I should say, were two of you," the young Jedi went on. "We're on to your partner Sidious; we tracked him all over the galaxy. He's probably in Jedi custody right now."

"Is he?" Dooku relaxed. He was terribly, terribly tempted to wink at Palpatine, but of course that would never do. "How fortunate for you."

Quite simple, in the end, he thought. Isolate Skywalker, slaughter Kenobi. Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power.

Lord Sidious would take it from there.

"Surrender." Kenobi's voice deepened into finality. "You will be given no further chance."

Dooku lifted an eyebrow. "Unless one of you happens to be carrying Yoda in his pocket, I hardly think I shall need one."

The Force crackled between them, and the ship pitched and bucked under a new turbolaser barrage, and Dooku decided that the time had come. He flicked a false glance over his shoulder - a hint of distraction to draw the attack -

And all three of them moved at once.



The ship shuddered and the red smoke surged from Anakin's spine into his arms and legs and head and when Dooku gave the slightest glance of concern over his shoulder, distracted for half an instant, Anakin just couldn't wait anymore.

He sprang, lightsaber angled for the kill.

Obi-Wan leapt from Dooku's far side in perfect coordination - and they met in midair, for the Sith Lord was no longer between them.

Anakin looked up just in time to glimpse the bottom of Dooku's rancor - leather boot as it came down on his face and smacked him tumbling toward the floor; he reached into the Force to effortlessly right himself and touched down in perfect balance to spring again toward the lightning flares, scarlet against sky blue, that sprayed from clashing lightsabers as Dooku pressed Obi-Wan away with a succession of weaving, flourishing thrusts that drove the Jedi's blade out of line while they reached for his heart.

Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back - and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one - handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.

He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own - and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall. His lightsaber came loose from his slackening fingers and clattered across the tabletop to drop to the floor on the far side.
And Dooku barely even seemed to be paying attention to him.

Pinned, breathless, half stunned, Anakin thought, If this keeps up, I am going to get mad.



While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine.

"My my," he said, chuckling. "The boy has some power after all."

His backroll brought him to his feet directly in front of the lad, who was charging, headlong and unarmed, after the table he had tossed, and was already thoroughly red in the face.

"I'm twice the Jedi I was last time!"

Ah, Dooku thought. Such a fragile little ego. Sidious will have to help him with that. But until then-

The grip of Skywalker's blade whistled through the air to meet his hand in perfect synchrony with a sweeping slash. "My powers have doubled since we last met -"

"How lovely for you." Dooku neatly sidestepped, cutting at the boy's leg, yet Skywalker's blade met the cut as he passed and he managed to sweep his blade behind his head to slap aside the casual thrust Dooku aimed at the back of his neck—but his clumsy charge had put him in Kenobi's path, so that the Jedi Master had to Force-roll over his partner's head.

Directly at Dooku's upraised blade.

Kenobi drove a slash at the scarlet blade while he pivoted in the air, and again Dooku sidestepped so that now it was Kenobi in Skywalker's way.

"Really," Dooku said, "this is pathetic."

Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction, while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to out-maneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could to do keep from laughing out loud.

It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat - attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides - while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cut¬ting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner.

Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another - and occasionally flip over a head here and there - so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way.

They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.

They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.
What does that mean?

Have they met and fought on Tatooine as shown in »Star Wars: The Clone Wars film« or did that have not happened and they have met the first time since Geonosis on the Invisible Hand during the battle over Couruscant - as described in the novelization »Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith« and implied in the movie?

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Post by 2046 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:47 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Didn't he "line-edit" some recent EU stuff?
Not to my knowledge. He wrote an intro to Shatterpoint, if I recall, but that was a few years ago. He does have some sort of interest in the comics . . . he reads the comics, unlike the EU . . . but Rostoni's comments on the matter left the level of involvement a mystery, one which is not interesting enough to solve.
Mike DiCenso wrote:In some interviews Lucas has said that he sometimes has to step in to veto or approve some of the EU authors' general storyline ideas {...} he did approve the killing off of Chewbacca in the EU storyline
"Has to step in" is a somewhat inaccurate phrasing. To my knowledge, based on all statements I've read, what basically happens is that the Licensing folks (makers of the EU) will send him simple questions (e.g. yes/no, multiple choice . . . no bluebook test, at any rate). They also send overall plot outlines for major stuff they're plannning (e.g. the overall arc of the NJO series).

EU Completists would mislead you to believe that Lucas goes over everything with a fine-tooth comb to make sure it adheres to his vision. However, at best, Lucas seems to approach it like someone ready to sue if the Star Wars name is slandered, making sure that Licensing doesn't screw up so badly that they hurt the brand name.

For instance, it isn't that Lucas said for them to kill Chewie, or that they asked for Chewie's head and Lucas said yes. Chewbacca was simply not on the list he responded with for characters they could not kill.

However, when it was decided to kill a Solo-baby, apparently Lucas did express a preference that it be Anakin Solo instead of Jacen. Licensing folks have suggested that Lucas didn't like the similarities in the Anakin Solo-baby's character and his own Anakin Skywalker, and so the Licensing folks had to do some swapping around of all sorts of character arc stuff at the last minute.

That's not the sort of story that would've occurred if Lucas were handling the game himself.

Similar statements can be found at the "Behind the Scenes" part of Anakin Solo's Wookieepedia entry.
WILGA wrote:Have they met and fought on Tatooine as shown in »Star Wars: The Clone Wars film« or did that have not happened and they have met the first time since Geonosis on the Invisible Hand during the battle over Couruscant - as described in the novelization »Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith« and implied in the movie?
Obviously, the TV show wins. The novel is superceded.

Nice catch, by the way.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:53 am

From the statements I'm seeing, we can't be sure whether the novelization's statement that the two of them hadn't met since the Geonosis duel - the script and the movie really show something very close to the novelization here - came from Lucas or not.

And if it did come from Lucas, it's G level in the Chee heirarchy, and "real" Star Wars by Lucas purists. If the CGI Clone Wars stuff subservient to the core live action films, then we would decide that they didn't meet on Tatooine.

If the animated feature is on the same level as the movies, we have the option for them to meet on Tatooine - in general, that would be more recent material superceding older material. There's precedent for retcons and Lucas changing his mind.

I strongly suspect that both points - the implication they hadn't met since Geonosis as well as the animated feature showing them meeting - bear the mark of the Flanneled One (TM), and that Lucas simply didn't realize there was any contradiction.

In regards to EU canon policy and the novelizations, I would strongly recommend debaters assume that all novelization material is "lower G" - definitely "Flanneled One Approved (TM)" unless explicitly known otherwise - just as one already assumes that all EU material is "C" level unless there's a compelling reason to state otherwise. As the levels are described, it's quite possible for some EU material not seen in any film to be "G" level - all it has to be is to originate with Lucas to be "G."

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:04 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:In »Star Wars: The Clone Wars film«, Anakin Skywalker and Count Dooku have fought against each other in the desert of Tatooine.

But according to the novelization »Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith«, both have met again on the Invisible Hand for the first time since Geonosis.
Yep, I noticed how Dooku faces Anakin and Obi-Wan and speaks just like if their last battle was the one at Geonosis, yet the CGI film shows a battle which happened in between, at Tatooine.

Dooku's getting old. The problem is that we get that impression from the words in the film.

Besides, if the novelization was superseded, despite being G canon and the CGI series/film being T canon (lower), we're facing a break in the rules.

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:42 am

And now we have a second meeting of Dooku and Anakin and Kenobi with the latest episode of the Clone Wars.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:42 pm

A thought occured to me that Ventress probably was brought into the the first Clone Wars cartoon series to fill in for Dooku, who would still be too powerful for Anakin to fight as well as to preserve the continuity better.
-Mike

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:58 pm

That also bugged me - Ventress is having been shown as vanquished (once and for all, to reinforce the euphimism) at the end of the Clone Wars cartoon, but she's still active in The Clone Wars. Which means either The Clone Wars takes place almost immediately after Ep II, or we have a serious continuity cluster****.

BTW, I like CW Ventress compared to TCW Ventress. They seem to want to make her all...fanservice-y in TCW.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:36 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote: That also bugged me - Ventress is having been shown as vanquished (once and for all, to reinforce the euphimism) at the end of the Clone Wars cartoon, but she's still active in The Clone Wars. Which means either The Clone Wars takes place almost immediately after Ep II, or we have a serious continuity cluster****.
I don't have too much of a problem with placing TCW with regards to CW since TCW is filling in the story gaps left by CW.
ILikeDeathNote wrote: BTW, I like CW Ventress compared to TCW Ventress. They seem to want to make her all...fanservice-y in TCW.
Given the way she looks... ewww... just ewww, man.
-Mike

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