Great New Lucas Quote . . . Total Film May 2008

For all your discussion of canon policies, evidentiary standards, and other meta-debate issues.

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Kane Starkiller
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Post by Kane Starkiller » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:37 pm

GStone wrote:You want a 'blanked statement'? Try this:

"He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." "
So what? Do you think they actually know the exact way Paramount treats the novels? Not to mention that for a time Technical Manials were considered canon information. When they talk about universe and world they are talking about autorship:the stuff Lucas does and the stuff others do not some literal parallel universe from a Star Trek episode.
2046 wrote:That's the most extraordinary thing you could've said.
That may be your opinion.
2046 wrote:What Lucas said was that there was no story. As before, his universe occurs in a select period of time, and what happens before or after is unknown.

But to your mind, he just invalidated vast portions of the EU at a stroke while simultaneously declaring it to be in the same timeline, and despite the whole two-universe, parallel-universe, "completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other" thing.

Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds? Re-read what you said then read the quote. Then do it again for good measure. Does the dissonance between what you said and what Lucas said not leap out at you? How do you circumvent it?

I'm not asking in a mean-spirited way . . . I'm genuinely curious.
Yes there is no story about Vader and the Skywalkers. The critical issue here is that you pretend that his usage of the word "universe" is the same as yours, namely actual physical universe. This way you can pretend that when he says "separate universe" he actually means real parallel universe straight out of a TNG episode. Naturally anyone looking at all his quotes such as the ones in which he states that novels DO INTRUDE on his universe, that he tries to keep things consistent or ROTS commentary in which he flatly states that Anakin's scar will be explained in the novels realizes that novels are indeed part of the same continuity and phyisical universe (as in the same Galaxy) but not part of his "universe/world" that is his own story.

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Post by GStone » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:06 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:So what? Do you think they actually know the exact way Paramount treats the novels?
Either they knew or they thought they knew. Either way, they were going off of their perception of how it worked, whether that perception was right of not: 2 universes.
Not to mention that for a time Technical Manials were considered canon information.
Wrong, it was backstage information treated by fans as canon because of who it was written by. But, I never heard of any official word on it being canon, except for Roddenberry speaking highly of it.

The TNG tech manual was written by Bachman and Okuda, who worked on trek for a number of years. The information that mde up the tech manual came from notes that were jotted down and the breath of the subjects made it an unofficial tech manual. It got polished and then, got sold. The tng and ds9 tech manuals are backstage information sold to the public. But, we know that from the various writers bibles that the show has been made over the years with the bibles as a guide, not the tech manuals. The writers were given general ideas, not the specifics of say the composition of phasers. The writers would leave blanks in their scripts for tech explanations by others.

A wide range of variation in things like FTL speed, for instance, has crept up because of plot and then, there have been fan attempts to reconcile the information. There's also the line of 'your mileage may vary', which I think came from the TNG tech manual, but I can't quite remember right now. I don't have it in front of me.

It's irrelevent because with each show, there has been a writers bible. They weren't given a copy of the TNG tech manual or the DS9 one. The TNG writers bible mentioned 'dimpling' shields to get past them. There was even an image of the a dimple made into the shield by continuous and multiple firing on the same spot by phasers and torps. This idea of dimpling never showed up in the tng or ds9 tech manuals.
When they talk about universe and world they are talking about autorship:the stuff Lucas does and the stuff others do not some literal parallel universe from a Star Trek episode.
Only if he hadn't ever said 2 universes, which he has before.

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Post by 2046 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:53 am

Frankly, Kane, I'm being profoundly courteous by giving your posts the time of day. They are upside-down absurdities that I reply to only to plumb the depths of spin-doctoring. But I thank you for your assistance in idiot-proofing future CanonWars updates.

Carrying on:
Kane Starkiller wrote:The critical issue here is that you pretend that his usage of the word "universe" is the same as yours, namely actual physical universe. This way you can pretend that when he says "separate universe" he actually means real parallel universe straight out of a TNG episode.
Dude, that's what "parallel universe" *means*. How many ways must he explain it to you?

2001 - "outside of my little universe"
2002 - "the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books"
2003 - "different universe”
2005 - "The other books and everything kind of go off on their path"
2005 - When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
2008 - "these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead.""

Your argument requires that Lucas be a moron who . . . despite vast experience with science fiction and despite having worked on a script involving parallel universes . . . does not know what the term means.
Naturally anyone looking at all his quotes
Deal with this one. Don't try to re-imagine it based on fanciful (read: BS) ideas of what he said before.
such as the ones in which he states that novels DO INTRUDE on his universe
You mean parts of their timeline they were supposed to avoid.
that he tries to keep things consistent
He doesn't use the same names for different people . . . so what? That's professional courtesy. But he doesn't even read the novels, so it isn't like he was making the prequels with the Licensing Holocron as reference.
ROTS commentary in which he flatly states that Anakin's scar will be explained in the novels
Of course it would be explained in the novels. They have names and backstories for virtually every living thing seen on screen. That doesn't mean he accepts their version. Indeed, he even joked that he thought Anakin got it from slipping in the shower. And that's the very point . . . for him it was a visual storytelling maneuver, making a point about the character (battle-hardened, been through stuff, not the same whiny brat we saw before) without having to go into a lot of detail, but for Licensing it was the source of a story.

Knowing how the business works and accepting their storyline as your own are two different things.
realizes that novels are indeed part of the same continuity
Source?
and phyisical universe (as in the same Galaxy) but not part of his "universe/world" that is his own story.
That would only work if there was no use of the same characters. The term "parallel universe" (and the other similar phrasings Lucas has used) could be taken metaphorically, much as people use the term metaphorically to describe Main Street vs. Wall Street, or Ma and Pa's corner store versus the Wal-Mart empire.

And indeed, Lucas has appeared to approach such phrasing to describe the live-action show, which is apparently to occur in the same movie universe but elsewhere in the galaxy, with mostly different characters. However, he's been explicit about the fact that it is in the same universe and consistent, so that doesn't help you at all.

Licensing tells stories with the Lucas settings and characters. Luke got married, the Emperor got cloned, and so on. Yet Lucas explicitly says these things do not happen in his post-RotJ timeline . . . he isn't sure what happens, but he knows that isn't it.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would he have to phrase things in order for you to accept the truth? What precisely would he have to scrawl on the proverbial 2x4?

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Post by l33telboi » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:59 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:So what exactly is new? Licenced books don't always match with films particularly when it comes to fates and histories of main movie characters hence no cloned Emperor (which was an idiotic idea to begin with) etc.
Just out of curiosity. Would you mind telling me, in your own words, what you think Lucas think of the EU? Does he embrace it as an extension to his own verse, or is it something different from what he created and not his view on how things would've gone, etc?

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Post by 2046 » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:01 pm

Another response:
from the George Lucas interview:

There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans

and a very TRUE response from Adam-wan-kenobi on TOS forums:

Last time I checked, the New Testament considers the father, son and holy ghost all three to be canon.
This seems to have ended the discussion for the most part at that particular venue. The back-patting began, as if they'd successfully spun the quote instead of just trying to joke their way out.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:51 pm

You've really got to be kidding me... that quote you provided really isn't just joking around!?
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:11 am

Of course, if you consider that Lucas' universe only circumvents anything he's produced, but not a whole part of the EU, it's perfectly logical for him to say that no marriage, no clones, etc. It wouldn't mean it didn't happen outside of his universe.

The whole problem has been if his universe is outside of the whole saga/larger universe or not, from his point of view.

Strangely, the production argument -- as do that but don't do this, don't fiddle with this background but you can add something like that, I'm fine with it -- seems to make a little more sense with the new stuff at hand.

He's very clearly said that his universe was very specific. It was his, and there was the other universe.
Technically, this doesn't make them mutually exclusive. The other doesn't necessarily mean anti-something, just something different, which in this case could be something larger.

We'll see what the new hot canon stuff is about, and see how it fits, really.
I'm particularily eager to see the live action show.

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Post by 2046 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:34 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:You've really got to be kidding me... that quote you provided really isn't just joking around!?
-Mike
They are from threads at StarWars.com and GalacticSenate.com's EUDF Practice Range thread.

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Post by 2046 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:41 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Strangely, the production argument -- as do that but don't do this, don't fiddle with this background but you can add something like that, I'm fine with it -- seems to make a little more sense with the new stuff at hand.
That's not the production argument.

The production argument is that he is always somehow referring to differing media forms and/or production personnel in quotes like this, not content and characters and continuity, and that this magic wink-and-smile meaning is transmitted only to the bright and capable minds who benevolently elucidate this meaning to us, translating from Lucas-English to English-English. In short, they argue that Lucas is an idiot who does not understand his own utterances.

Meanwhile, everyone else reads it the same way I do, as evidenced by the assorted quotes I provided.

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