KT's Military Credentials And The VS Debate

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Post by GStone » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:39 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:I see her work as another version of the rest of the EU. Utter garbage, I have no time for it. And since she started on the Boba Fett track I won't even pick up the books in the store.
Hang on. You're complaining about her work and her supposed lack of credentials, but you've never even read it?!

This isn't even about trolling behavior anymore.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:40 am

GStone wrote:
Your posts of late in this thread show that if you aren't going full on troll, you are preferring to be troll-like.
Focus on what's being said, not how it's being said.

What I've done is show that many of your conclusions are just jumping the gun.
Using what? Your lack of experiance in military matters? I see Google and your copy of The Military for Dummies has run dry.
Off hand, I can't think of a garrison town that's got more military people than civilians in the US, but I also don't know all the garrison towns in the US. I also don't know of all the garrison towns of all the other countries. Things might be different at some of them.
The closest that I'm aware of is where I was posted: CFB Petawawa. The base has around 6,000 troops and an amount of family members I never bothered to keep track of, the town of Petawawa where the base is located has 14,000 people which includes the base population.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:42 am

GStone wrote:
Hang on. You're complaining about her work and her supposed lack of credentials, but you've never even read it?!

This isn't even about trolling behavior anymore.
I never said I hadn't read some of it. I just don't care for it. My opinion on her work is seperate from my opinion with her credentials. I even stated that this wasn't about her but what people are claiming about her.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:12 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:The closest that I'm aware of is where I was posted: CFB Petawawa. The base has around 6,000 troops and an amount of family members I never bothered to keep track of, the town of Petawawa where the base is located has 14,000 people which includes the base population.
Also I believe the Valcartier Military base in Quebec city has more military personnel as residents than civilian families.
Although the fact that it's nexts to the relatively populated Quebec city (600 000, give or take a few) might skew the numbers a little...

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Post by GStone » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:33 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
GStone wrote:Focus on what's being said, not how it's being said.
I did. Switching what you're saying by wanting her credentials and then, saying they don't matter after you heard something of them and following it up by saying that you don't need to know the specifics of her upbringing (a part of her credentials) and claiming that you only need to know what is more likely is troll behavior.

If you want credentials, you need to know specifics.
Using what? Your lack of experiance in military matters?
I used your statements that rushed to judgement about her and her credentials.
I see Google and your copy of The Military for Dummies has run dry.
This would also be baiting behavior, trying to make me feel some sense of outrage, so that I'd throw some barb back your way.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:46 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Also I believe the Valcartier Military base in Quebec city has more military personnel as residents than civilian families.
Although the fact that it's nexts to the relatively populated Quebec city (600 000, give or take a few) might skew the numbers a little...
Valcatraz (as we call it) is really located in Val Belaire, just outside Quebec City. It's basically a bunch of houses (owned mainly by military famalies) and the strip club Entrer Nous (awesome club, good girl/girl shows). But I believe with a re-org of the cities and counties in Quebec, it's actually part of Quebec City now.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:17 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:Valcatraz (as we call it) is really located in Val Belaire, just outside Quebec City. It's basically a bunch of houses (owned mainly by military famalies) and the strip club Entrer Nous (awesome club, good girl/girl shows). But I believe with a re-org of the cities and counties in Quebec, it's actually part of Quebec City now.
Yup, Val-Bélair is now part of the "greater" Quebec City, although
St-Augustin and Ancienne-Lorette decided to split right back up after they were allowed to...

Why it the base called "Valcatraz"? :)

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:42 am

Praeothmin wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:Valcatraz (as we call it) is really located in Val Belaire, just outside Quebec City. It's basically a bunch of houses (owned mainly by military famalies) and the strip club Entrer Nous (awesome club, good girl/girl shows). But I believe with a re-org of the cities and counties in Quebec, it's actually part of Quebec City now.
Yup, Val-Bélair is now part of the "greater" Quebec City, although
St-Augustin and Ancienne-Lorette decided to split right back up after they were allowed to...

Why it the base called "Valcatraz"? :)
Because like Alcatraz, once your there you never get out.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:12 pm

Lonestar wrote:Just because she was a defense correspondent doesn't mean she knows/knew what the heck she was talking about, only that she got a job somewhere and was probably sent there based upon an editorial decision. I've cringed at more than a few so-called defense journalists comments on TV and in newspapers.

If I may relate a personal anecdote, a USN Photographer(They are called "Mass Communication Specialists" now, or something) came aboard my ship on deployment, and when he did the write up on navy.mil he got the name, rate(job description/rank), and what he was doing wrong! And this was a Chief, who spent many years in the Navy. So "Oh, well, she was a journalist" isn't a very good defense of her credibility. Especially when she doesn't have any researched published works like Thomas Ricks, Robert Kaplan, or Rick Atkinson.
You may indeed, and it's one that I appreciate - because that fellow, by the standards of most online communities, would be considered to have quite excellent credentials. ("You made chief? You served for many years? Good man, you must know what you're talking about...")

There are degrees and degrees of expertise - and the best measure, ultimately, is the work itself rather than the credentials. Leaving aside the question of who has the inside scoop on what Lucas Licensing has decided is "real," I'd be more interested in hearing what, say, Eric Flint might have to say about the military strategy of the Clone Wars - and he, unlike Karen Traviss, has no service background whatsoever.
She can feel all she wants, her depiction of the Force Structure of the GAR(and the bizarre Mand'o obsession) does nothing but confirm the impression that she was(is) a not-too-bright bottomfeeder.
Which part of the whole Mando'a thing do you find bizarre? The fact that she's started to come up with a language for it (nothing new in SF), the focus of her clone characters on Mandalorian culture, what?
(1) I don't think she's a very good author(yeah yeah, all subjective) and (2)Her reactions to her critics online are not(to me, at least) indicative of a person who seeks/takes advice well. ;)
Frankly, I think that's mostly due to the hostility those critics have approached her. I would be amazed if she takes the same tone with her friends, family, or editor.
I'm not qualified to comment on her depiction of small unit actions, and in any event I'm not sure if anyone is actually thrashing 'em. The primary complaint is the seeming lack of vision she has on "the big picture", with the argument that 3 million troopers is enough to prosecute the Clone Wars(most successful occupations require 1 to 50 soldier-to-civilian ratio). Tens of millions of men and women were mobilized for WW2 on Earth, and we're to believe that the primary ground force(and gun crews for starships, if Revenge of the Sith is anything to go by) for a galacticwide conflict is...3 million strong? That wouldn't be enough for one planet with Earth's population!
Well, she thinks - and this is pretty clearly the current Lucas Licensing continuity line - of the Clone Wars as having scattered action on hundreds of worlds. Many of those worlds are barely settled or barely care; it's more like the Falkland Islands, a conflict on a global stage rather than a genuine global war.

IMO, 3 million is a problem when, in ROTS, we're talking about sending out garrisons with the governors. Clearly the clones alone weren't numerous enough to provide for everything (hence why, by ROTS, we see normal human navy officers), but those are stated to be clonetroopers.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:39 pm

If the EU really cared about making sense with such low numbers, it would have bee, easy, and claim that most enforcements were achived by the presence of ships in systems, with the use of governors and militia.

So you reduce the number of clonetroopers and their necessity by a good margin, making operation where they need to be deployed fairly minor.

Though I did find the number low, I find it odd that those who always associate SW to BDZ, consider that it's so important to deploy troops when most of control is assured by slaggin' worlds if they fart awkwardly.

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Post by Lonestar » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:00 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Which part of the whole Mando'a thing do you find bizarre? The fact that she's started to come up with a language for it (nothing new in SF), the focus of her clone characters on Mandalorian culture, what?
Mostly that while she had the conn Mandalorians went from being enemies of the Jedi in the distant past to super-dooper living/breathing warrior race. And okay, fine, but my(fanboy) perception of the Mandalorians has always been that they were skilled fighters, like Gurhkas. Not nearly superhuman warriors one or two levels below that of the Jedi. They've become more cliched Sci-fi warriors.

The second one is that the Clones were suppose to represent faceless masses as a predecessor to the Imperial Marines/Stormtroopers. Obviously, Commando Teams are going to have different attitudes and outlooks on life than the mass-produced bog-standard clones, but wedging in Mandalorian culture just for the Hell of it is kind of lazy writing.

Third, Sci-fi languages. The most successful ones out there are Klingon and Ewok, both written up by professional linguists. My own foreign language skills are abysmal(Some Spanish and even less Swedish), but Mando'a sounds and reads like a language a kid could have made up.

Frankly, I think that's mostly due to the hostility those critics have approached her. I would be amazed if she takes the same tone with her friends, family, or editor.
Hmm...maybe, maybe not. Undesignated Deck Seaman always have chips on their shoulder.
Well, she thinks - and this is pretty clearly the current Lucas Licensing continuity line - of the Clone Wars as having scattered action on hundreds of worlds. Many of those worlds are barely settled or barely care; it's more like the Falkland Islands, a conflict on a global stage rather than a genuine global war.
Bad analogy. The Falklands was an extremely localized conflict, throughout the EU(and later, the ROTS) invasions of enemy capital worlds(various backers of the Confederacy, Coruscant) would require wwwaaaaaayyyyy more than 3 million clonetroopers, no matter how elite they are. Especially as so many have now been shown to be tied up operating guns on starships(ugh).

Let's assume that the population of, say, Neimodia is 6 Billion sentient beings. Odds are that, as the homeworld of the most prominent race in the Trade Federation the population would be much larger, but let's run with the same population of modern day Earth. RAND did a study(right before OIF, but that didn't stop the sitting Administration from having a screwed up force structure) that indicated that, based upon successful occupations in the past, a soldier-to-civilian ratio of 1 to every 50 civilians. Which means that in order to successfully occupy Neimodia(in peacetime, once the shooting has stopped) you'd need 120 million soldiers. Obviously, they don't need to all be clones, but are you going to use anything but your best guys for the Invasion of the homeworld of one of your primary adversaries?

Ah, but the Republic can use droids as UAVs/UGVs, and since AI is sufficiently advanced you probably won't need to stick an E4 in front of 20 monitors for a 8 hour watch, let's reduce that by, hmm, 2/3rds.

Still at 40 million or so for a successful peacetime occupation. To say nothing of the actual conquest. And that's just one major planet that was fought over during the Clone Wars!


IMO, 3 million is a problem when, in ROTS, we're talking about sending out garrisons with the governors. Clearly the clones alone weren't numerous enough to provide for everything (hence why, by ROTS, we see normal human navy officers), but those are stated to be clonetroopers.
We see some normal humans(and in the novelization they are indicated to actually be in charge of the warships), but the gun crews and presumably other combat systems would have clones at the helm.

This is a part of the reason why I like the WH40K franchise so much, yeah, it's over-the-top, but at least Games Workshop knows they have a big Galaxy, and have the armies sized accordingly.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Though I did find the number low, I find it odd that those who always associate SW to BDZ, consider that it's so important to deploy troops when most of control is assured by slaggin' worlds if they fart awkwardly.
Ha! Well, performing BDZ operations makes sense if you don't have to fear reprisal(too much). But it may make the opposing force think "The only way we're getting out of this alive is to win", which will prolong the war. Actually conquering planets and occupying them without wholesale slaughter of civilians may make the opposition more inclined to seek a political settlement.

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:17 pm

But the problem with the clone numbers being so low also comes directly from the Movie canon, when in AotC Obi-Wan is told that 1.2 million clones are ready, and another million or so are on the way.

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Post by GStone » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:56 pm

But, on the way in what sense? It could easily have been about them being a few years away from being ready. Kamino is a planet covered in water, so that might limit their housing facilities for the clones. Plus, Tyrannus might not have been the only customer they had.

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Post by Lonestar » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:54 pm

Praeothmin wrote:But the problem with the clone numbers being so low also comes directly from the Movie canon, when in AotC Obi-Wan is told that 1.2 million clones are ready, and another million or so are on the way.
That's a big negative, Ghost Rider. The Kaminoan tells Obi-wan that 1.2 million units are ready. A fine distinction, but an important one. While that could mean 1.2 million clones, given the scale of the conflict it could be 1.2 million companies, battalions, regiments, or divisions.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:13 pm

Lonestar wrote:Mostly that while she had the conn Mandalorians went from being enemies of the Jedi in the distant past to super-dooper living/breathing warrior race. And okay, fine, but my(fanboy) perception of the Mandalorians has always been that they were skilled fighters, like Gurhkas. Not nearly superhuman warriors one or two levels below that of the Jedi. They've become more cliched Sci-fi warriors.
Well, the cliched "trained from birth" warrior culture, at least. There's nothing supposedly biologically superior about the Mandalorians, so far as I can tell; they're stock humans.
The second one is that the Clones were suppose to represent faceless masses as a predecessor to the Imperial Marines/Stormtroopers. Obviously, Commando Teams are going to have different attitudes and outlooks on life than the mass-produced bog-standard clones, but wedging in Mandalorian culture just for the Hell of it is kind of lazy writing.
I think it's actually good to see clones grasping for some kind of "real" culture to make their own. Not so certain on the specifics. IMO, she gets too wrapped up in limited third person.
Third, Sci-fi languages. The most successful ones out there are Klingon and Ewok, both written up by professional linguists. My own foreign language skills are abysmal(Some Spanish and even less Swedish), but Mando'a sounds and reads like a language a kid could have made up.
Can't say I've learned much about Mando'a, so I can't comment either way.
Hmm...maybe, maybe not. Undesignated Deck Seaman always have chips on their shoulder.
Franchise authors who are next to unknown outside of the franchise don't. Not with their editors, not if they want to keep a career going.
Bad analogy. The Falklands was an extremely localized conflict, throughout the EU(and later, the ROTS) invasions of enemy capital worlds(various backers of the Confederacy, Coruscant) would require wwwaaaaaayyyyy more than 3 million clonetroopers, no matter how elite they are. Especially as so many have now been shown to be tied up operating guns on starships(ugh).
I think it's apt to what she's describing - a series of scattered local conflicts, like the Falklands, each small, each brief, each involving a small amount of casualties on the global scale.
Let's assume that the population of, say, Neimodia is 6 Billion sentient beings. Odds are that, as the homeworld of the most prominent race in the Trade Federation the population would be much larger, but let's run with the same population of modern day Earth. RAND did a study(right before OIF, but that didn't stop the sitting Administration from having a screwed up force structure) that indicated that, based upon successful occupations in the past, a soldier-to-civilian ratio of 1 to every 50 civilians. Which means that in order to successfully occupy Neimodia(in peacetime, once the shooting has stopped) you'd need 120 million soldiers. Obviously, they don't need to all be clones, but are you going to use anything but your best guys for the Invasion of the homeworld of one of your primary adversaries?

Ah, but the Republic can use droids as UAVs/UGVs, and since AI is sufficiently advanced you probably won't need to stick an E4 in front of 20 monitors for a 8 hour watch, let's reduce that by, hmm, 2/3rds.

Still at 40 million or so for a successful peacetime occupation. To say nothing of the actual conquest. And that's just one major planet that was fought over during the Clone Wars!
Which is particularly problematic given that Cato Neimoidia was captured using three Republic attack cruisers, according to the official story of events. (Neimoidia itself was hit a little earlier by a Republic ground force; Cato Neimoidia was where the Separatists' strong point was within the Neimoidian systems.)

I agree this is terribly problematic, but this problem didn't start with Traviss; the problem started when Lucas had 200,000 clones with a million more on the way in AOTC, and continued when Obi-Wan Kenobi said he could take three worlds like Utapau with two clone brigades.

Utapau has a population of close to a hundred million. Two clone brigades - in other words, something like 10,000 troops in the landing bays of an attack cruiser - are supposed to be enough to capture planets occupied by around 300 million people. That's not 50:1; that's 30,000:1, a ratio which roughly fits the actual battle of Cato Neimoidia as described in the EU.

It's hard to find anything close in history. The Spanish conquests in the New World or the rise of the Mongolian Empire are as close as you'll get, but even then, you tend to be at least an order of magnitude short. This didn't start with Karen Traviss; this, like the utterly bizarre behavior of lasers, is all over the Star Wars universe.

Are we supposed to say that it's completely unrealistic, or that Star Wars populations are stricken by remarkably complete apathy? Or too afraid of thousands dying in collateral damage when "precision" orbital strikes target centers of resistance?

It may be more realistic than hearing engine noise in space, but it's pretty clear this is what Lucas and company have decided is sufficient to wage the Clone Wars. Not trillions or quadrillions, but mere millions.
This is a part of the reason why I like the WH40K franchise so much, yeah, it's over-the-top, but at least Games Workshop knows they have a big Galaxy, and have the armies sized accordingly.
Same number of worlds in the Imperium as the Empire... the Empire is painted more impressively than the Republic, granted, and transit times seem to be quicker than in Warhammer, allowing the use of smaller (and more mobile) armies.... but I agree very much that GW has a better grasp on the sheer scale of a galaxy than Lucas and company.

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