KT's Military Credentials And The VS Debate

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KT's Military Credentials And The VS Debate

Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:07 pm

A response to the claims that KT's military experiance grants her an insight into the entire military. Posted in a new thread as the original thread has devolved into a screechfest.

Unfortunately a request to the MoD for her service details was denied for privacy concerns, there is however plenty here to make an assessment.

So lets look at her own statements and see what can be determined.

First:

From- +http://www.karentraviss.com/html/cont_rea.htm#1
Like most writers, I've been around a bit. Most of my working life has been spent as a journo in TV and newspapers. At one time or another I've been an advertising copywriter, a media liaison officer for the police, a journalism lecturer, a public relations manager and a defence correspondent. I've served in both the Territorial Army and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service (now disbanded, alas).
Little real info here, in fact to little to determine anything beyond the fact that she was in the TA and RNXS.
I now live in Wiltshire, home of some very fine beers, but I come from Portsmouth, home of the Royal Navy and birthplace of the world's greatest engineer, Isambard Brunel - oh, and some chaps called Charles Dickens and Peter Sellers. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle used to have a medical practice just around the corner from my old house and created Sherlock Holmes there, and H G Wells worked in a drapery store in the same road. Rudyard Kipling spent some childhood years in Portsmouth and Nevil Shute lived in the city too, so you can see there's something about Pompey that drives you to fiction.
She lived in Portsmouth, possibly a base brat.

Second:

From- +http://www.strangehorizons.com/2006/200 ... nt-a.shtml
Most of my military detail comes from the time I spent as a defence correspondent. It was a happy time. I got to do some interesting things that I look back on and think, "God, were you mad?" I thought nothing of being winched on and off ships' decks by helicopter, or playing with submarines or being deafened by Harriers. It was an odd mix of the political and procurement stuff—covering Defence Select Committees, talking to the arms industry—and talking to the people in uniform. (And playing with their kit, of course. The submarine simulator was a blast.)
This doesn't directly relate to her military service, unless she rode her TA trade into the journolism world. In any case none of this has any relevance to her statement that her military experiance is useful to portraying comradiere in a Special Forces unit. Unless you believe that you can absorb it through proximity or that the troops are actually going to include an outsider into their world.
I managed to pick a period when there were no wars, and I regret never having been an embedded journalist or getting to cover a conflict, but as I might be serving as a reservist again—if I pass the medical, which isn't looking good right now—I'm likely to end up minding embeds. (Ironic.) I was a reservist before for a few years—not in the line of fire, although a navy meat pie is a dangerous object—and that was interesting in terms of seeing how easily I fitted into a tribe. I come from a navy city and most of my family was in the services at some time or worked in defence, so I have a great affection for the armed forces.
Once again, states that she was a Reservist. No operational experiance listed, so in other words none. Soldiers are usually very clear on what they've done and the absence of any details does not speak well of her service.

Note also the fact that she only served "a few years", assuming that she means this literally we're looking at a maximum of three years. Probable rank upon release, no higher than Lance Corporal (one hook private). So just competant enough to stop being a danger to herself and others, won't require constant supervision.
And I enjoyed serving at sea with the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service. I was the world's worst helmsman and the most inaccurate thrower of heaving lines. I loved it because it was basic seamanship duties, not media liaison.
The duties stated according to a collegue make this the equivilant of an "undesignated deck seamen" in the US Navy. In other words not trusted or capable of doing all but the most basic duties.
I also served briefly in the Territorial Army (that's like the National Guard), but that was in a specialist media role, and I have to admit I would rather have learned a different trade like driving trucks or maintaining tanks. But I did get some firearms training, which is handy for a writer. The reserves have changed an awful lot in recent years and the U.K. armed forces are heavily dependent on them to meet their commitments; in some specialist branches, it's all reservists.
First off I can't even find a trade meeting this description of the UK Army site (+url=http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/Jobs/Home.htm}. The closest I found was a Clerk. Probable duties given her time in and rank level: photocopying, running errands for the actual Public Affairs Officer and making coffee. Oh and she got firearms training, that at least is relevant.

Third:

From- +http://www.sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=207
Military — in terms of the technical and political detail, I owe more to my time as a defence correspondent than the time I was in the reserves. I had high-level access to key people and I also got to scramble over some fun kit, from submarines to helicopters. Personally, I don't think you can ever really know what it means to be in uniform until someone is shooting at you in earnest, and you sure as hell can't sit in judgement on service personnel until you have.
So we see that she claims that she knows what it's really like to be in uniform but by her own standards, she can't possibly know.
In the reserves I never had anything remotely like a front line role, so I never presume to know what someone on the front line feels.
So by her own admission, she was a REMF. She can't claim to know what it would be like in a Special Forces unit but bases details of her stories on exactly that.
I do know what that bond with your mates feels like, though, especially when you rely on them for your safety as you do on board ship, and how automatic that bond is: and don't forget I also come from a naval port that was also a garrison town, and most of my family served at some time or were in the defence industry, so it's embedded in my culture, as it is for many of my generation from that city. I had a brilliant time in the RNXS, crewing small ships, and I preferred that to the Territorial Army, where I had a specialist media role. I like getting my hands dirty, I admit.
Here we get to the crux of the problem. The fact that she assumes one type of service and unit experiance translate to everyone else. What most people don't understand is that comradiere is differnt for each trade and unit in the military. A clerk in a support or non-operational unit will not experiance what an infantry or SF soldier will. Their bonds are much tighter by virtue of the fact that they actually rely on each other for their lives. It's also dependent on whether you have operational or combat experiance. Both forge bonds that are far above what you get by just serving out your time as a media specialist (a trade which apperently doesn't exist).

As well living in a "garrison town" confers almost no relevant knowledge on military comradiere. Does anyone think military wives have more than a passing clue into how a unit functions?

So as we can see, her service bears almost no relevance to what she is writing. If she were writing stories about the bonds and the goings on in a clone army support unit, go nuts. But she can't claim to have any more insight to a SF unit than the average civvie. It's also worth noting that a collegue who has a very respectable and difficult job in the US Navy but isn't and has never been on a ship pointed out this to me: "Whenever I write about ships and shipboard operations, it really is based on things I read in a book, not my Navy experience. How does serving as a basic seaman make one a qualified expert on everything military?" This is easily transferable to whatever branch of the military you care to name.

I should also make it clear that the statements made by her aren't very offensive by themselves, lots of former military personnel do this. What is objectionable is that some Trekkies are latching on to her experiance and using it to claim that she has special knowledge and that her stories are better because of it. Or that because she has military experiance, they assume that she must know everything about the military.

*************************************************************

Thanks to Lonestar, Wayne Poe, General Deathdealer, The Commander and The Rubberhead for their insight into military matters and helping find the relevant quotes. As well various RL military collegues who participated in this discussion.

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:28 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I should also make it clear that the statements made by her aren't very offensive by themselves, lots of former military personnel do this. What is objectionable is that some Trekkies are latching on to her experiance and using it to claim that she has special knowledge and that her stories are better because of it. Or that because she has military experiance, they assume that she must know everything about the military.
I agree this seems to prove that she isn't an army specialist, and I agree this shows she does not know everything about the military.
But it still shows a level of familiarity well above that of most debaters in this case.
She even fired of weapons used in the military, which, once again, shows a level of familiarity and experience above that of most debaters.
And, as you noticed, she was an "army brat".
How many people do you know who, just because their parents, or someone in their family close to them, worked, for example, as an auto mechanic, actually knew a lot about cars because they were around them?

I know I learned a lot about computers by hanging around with computer geeks, in fact I learned more with them then in my actual computers classes.

So I agree with you when you say she isn't an expert, and that her opinion isn't the "ultimate truth" in all things military, but she still has, as you have demonstrated, more experience then most debaters with all things military.
Thanks to Lonestar, Wayne Poe, General Deathdealer, The Commander and The Rubberhead for their insight into military matters
I sure hope they all have military experience, or else this would greatly undermine your position.
Criticizing someone with some experience by relying on material or insight from people without experience wouldn't really seem too credible.
If they do have military experience, I thnk you could just relate their general experience, such as:"3 years in the marines" or such.
Just to lend credence.

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Post by General Deathdealer » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:46 pm

I will go ahead and answer about my info for CPL Kendall to save him the trouble.
17 years in the U.S. Army. 1 tour during the 1st Gulf War, 1 tour in Afghanistan in 2002, 1 tour in Iraq in 2003. I am a maintenance officer so I am not in the front lines, but I have been in direct combat more times than I want to think about. I know what it is like to have bullets flying at you, and what it is like to shoot back and know that you have taken someone else's life.
I might not be a front line soldier, but I have a hell of a lot more experience than KT. Just because she was in the Territorial Army and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service does not mean she knows what she is talking about. Like she said she has never been in combat, so how is she going to be able to describe what a fire fight is like or how all of the participants are feeling while this is going on. She has no idea what it is like to see someone you know get hit and start screaming in pain. At least when Steven Spielburg made Saving Private Ryan he had consultants who knew a thing or two about the subject. She does not even have this.
She says that she has been trained to fire a weapon. So what? Everyone gets this training in the military. So just because Billy Bob from BFE knows how to fire a gun, does this mean that he is an expert on weapons? No, it just means he knows which end to point down range.
Just because she is an "Army Brat" means exactly squat also. My 12 year old son is an army brat, but he can't tell you what kind of tank is rolling by, how big the gun is, or what the max effective range of an M16 is. He just knows it is a tank with a big gun, and an M16 can shoot pretty far.
So, yes we can object to her and her attempts to inflate her military experience. Until she has been there and done that she should not try and argue with the people who have.

And yes I am the General Deathdealer from SDN that CPL Kendall refered to.

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:57 pm

Thanks, as I said, I agree she isn't an expert, just that she has more experience then most debaters on internet boards, unless she specifically went to debate on military boards, that is... :)

For example, although she couldn't honestly hope to know more about combat then you, for example, she definitly would know more then me, and more then most of the people reading her books.

Basically, what I'm saying is, if you dismiss her opinion as without merit because she has less experience then you, then the opinion of someone who's never been in the army should be completely ignored.

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Post by General Deathdealer » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:33 pm

I appologize if it sounded like I wan ranting at you, but one tends to get a bit excited over hacks like her doing what she is doing.

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Post by GStone » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:33 pm

General Deathdealer wrote:I might not be a front line soldier, but I have a hell of a lot more experience than KT. Just because she was in the Territorial Army and the Royal Naval Auxiliary Service does not mean she knows what she is talking about. Like she said she has never been in combat, so how is she going to be able to describe what a fire fight is like or how all of the participants are feeling while this is going on. She has no idea what it is like to see someone you know get hit and start screaming in pain.
And, to be fair, it isn't required to be a part of a military to see someone you know get hit and scream in pain. Civilians get caught in drive bys, shoot outs, etc., even when law enforcement tries to keep them at a safe distance.
At least when Steven Spielburg made Saving Private Ryan he had consultants who knew a thing or two about the subject. She does not even have this.
There is this:


http://www.bobafett.com/archives/000210.php

"JI: How much did your military background influence your writing the characters?

KT: I was a defense correspondent and it's mainly that job which provides most of the technical detail for my stories. Being a reservist did help me to get the mental attitude and sense of comradeship nailed down, though. Plus most of my family served in the military or the defense industry at some time in their lives. I grew up in a naval port that was also a garrison town. So it's part of the fabric of my life."

If you can accept that Spielberg had military consultants for his films, what is so hard to believe that she had military contacts to draw on in the form of family members and the family members of friends growing up and possibly still does draw on them.
She says that she has been trained to fire a weapon. So what? Everyone gets this training in the military. So just because Billy Bob from BFE knows how to fire a gun, does this mean that he is an expert on weapons? No, it just means he knows which end to point down range.
So, is there really an objection about her knowing how to shoot?
Just because she is an "Army Brat" means exactly squat also. My 12 year old son is an army brat, but he can't tell you what kind of tank is rolling by, how big the gun is, or what the max effective range of an M16 is. He just knows it is a tank with a big gun, and an M16 can shoot pretty far.
Your reasoning is faulty here. First off, she isn't 12 years old. She's an adult, who, like you son, was an army brat. The difference is that when she became an adult, she did go through service training. After including the fact that she was a defense correspondent, that puts her in a different category of knowledge than your son.

If she really was a 12 year old army brat, this argument might have merit, but she isn't, so this particular point is moot. I don't know if you and your son live in a garrison town or how much of your family has served in the military or the defense industry, but these might also be a factor in making a difference between the average army brat and her experiences growing up.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:21 pm

Praeothmin wrote: I agree this seems to prove that she isn't an army specialist, and I agree this shows she does not know everything about the military.
But it still shows a level of familiarity well above that of most debaters in this case.
She even fired of weapons used in the military, which, once again, shows a level of familiarity and experience above that of most debaters.
And, as you noticed, she was an "army brat".
How many people do you know who, just because their parents, or someone in their family close to them, worked, for example, as an auto mechanic, actually knew a lot about cars because they were around them?

I know I learned a lot about computers by hanging around with computer geeks, in fact I learned more with them then in my actual computers classes.

So I agree with you when you say she isn't an expert, and that her opinion isn't the "ultimate truth" in all things military, but she still has, as you have demonstrated, more experience then most debaters with all things military.
Like I said, it's not that she's actually claiming more than she has (something we call posing), it's that some factions are latching on to it to claim something that isn't true.

I sure hope they all have military experience, or else this would greatly undermine your position.

Wayne and Lonestar helped me find relevant info. I think you know that Wayne Poe has no military experiance, Lonestar served in the Navy. And the other two I won't comment on unless they give me permission. General Deathdealer has stated his experiance, though the other two are military.

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:36 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Like I said, it's not that she's actually claiming more than she has (something we call posing), it's that some factions are latching on to it to claim something that isn't true.
Which is why I agree with you... :)
Wayne and Lonestar helped me find relevant info. I think you know that Wayne Poe has no military experiance, Lonestar served in the Navy. And the other two I won't comment on unless they give me permission. General Deathdealer has stated his experiance, though the other two are military.
I think it's just that when I read insight, I just took it as "from experience", which is why I just wanted to be sure...
But even if none of them had had any experience, I still would have agreed with you post... :)

GStone wrote:And, to be fair, it isn't required to be a part of a military to see someone you know get hit and scream in pain. Civilians get caught in drive bys, shoot outs, etc., even when law enforcement tries to keep them at a safe distance.
Although these are traumatic experiences, I'm pretty sure it doesn't even come close to being in the middle of a fire zone when enemies shoot at you from different angles.

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Post by Cpl Kendall » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:46 pm

GStone wrote: And, to be fair, it isn't required to be a part of a military to see someone you know get hit and scream in pain. Civilians get caught in drive bys, shoot outs, etc., even when law enforcement tries to keep them at a safe distance.
It isn't required but it is part of the job description and it's far more likely that a soldier will see these things than a civvie, unless you live in Detroit.
There is this:


http://www.bobafett.com/archives/000210.php

"JI: How much did your military background influence your writing the characters?

KT: I was a defense correspondent and it's mainly that job which provides most of the technical detail for my stories. Being a reservist did help me to get the mental attitude and sense of comradeship nailed down, though. Plus most of my family served in the military or the defense industry at some time in their lives. I grew up in a naval port that was also a garrison town. So it's part of the fabric of my life."

If you can accept that Spielberg had military consultants for his films, what is so hard to believe that she had military contacts to draw on in the form of family members and the family members of friends growing up and possibly still does draw on them.
She doesn't say that she had advisors and even if she did, she lived in Portsmouth which implies her family members were Navy. Lots of relevant experiance to be gained from people that aren't in an Army unit or served so long ago that everythings changed. Did you miss the part where I explain everything is different for trade, unit and branch?
So, is there really an objection about her knowing how to shoot?
Depends on how often she went to the range. The amount of TA training days doesn't leave alot of time for range work and marksmenship training. Especially if your in an HQ unit.
Your reasoning is faulty here. First off, she isn't 12 years old. She's an adult, who, like you son, was an army brat. The difference is that when she became an adult, she did go through service training. After including the fact that she was a defense correspondent, that puts her in a different category of knowledge than your son.
No, I said she might be a base brat. No mention of the branch/trade that her father was.
If she really was a 12 year old army brat, this argument might have merit, but she isn't, so this particular point is moot. I don't know if you and your son live in a garrison town or how much of your family has served in the military or the defense industry, but these might also be a factor in making a difference between the average army brat and her experiences growing up.
Yeah man, base brats totally pick up lots of their parents knowledge. Like who's in the officers wives club and why your NCO daddy isn't eating at the Commanders Mess Dinner.

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Post by Lonestar » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:51 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
I sure hope they all have military experience, or else this would greatly undermine your position.

Howdy,

I'm Lonestar. In fact, I was the scalawag who indicated that KT was probably what would be in the USN a "undesignated deck seaman". What gave it away was that she was a helmsman in addition to a line handler(which is something junior enlisted "topsiders" do on small boys during evolutions along with the deck apes)...but only Undesignated deck seaman or Boatswain's Mates operate as Helmsmen.

There are a bunch of reasons why a person might be a deck seaman, but, far and away(I would say over 90%), the most common is because they bombed out on their ASVAB score, have a criminal record, or poor credit. Basically, the kind of folks the Navy doesn't even want to train as cooks. They also tend to be the scum of the Earth, try sharing a berthing area with them. So that interview kind of set off alarm bells for me. Of course, I'm more than a little bit biased...

As for me, I was what is called a "Cryptologic Technician, Maintenance" guy for 4 years in the Navy. Basically, a guy who works on signals collection equipment(The Ying to Kendall's Yang). I had part of one deployment, and one full deployment. The closest I ever got to combat was when an Indonesian soldier waved a rifle in my face during the Tsunami relief, although I did do stuff like work in refugee camps, be the gopher for boarding parties back to the ship, and argue with my Australian counterparts over the comms net. I left as an E4, but I got selected for promotion while on Terminal. Dems the breaks. Nowadays I'm a scumbag IT contractor for the Department of the Army, and yeah, there is a whole hell of a lot of difference in camaraderie between a supply officer and someone who has a Ranger Badge on his shoulder.

-Lonestar

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Post by GStone » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:56 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Although these are traumatic experiences, I'm pretty sure it doesn't even come close to being in the middle of a fire zone when enemies shoot at you from different angles.
The only real difference between an actual war zone and prolonged gang warfare with automatic weapons is that the gang warfare tends to be more sporadic and in spurts with a height of just automatic weapons, if even that. None of the heavier things, like rpgs or tanks rolling down the street. But, when it's just seeing a buddy get shot and scream in pain, they're about equal in shock value.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:58 pm

In all seriousness, KT's background is probably 10% real facts and distant experience, 45% imagination, 45% WWII movies watched on TV.

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Post by GStone » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:11 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:She doesn't say that she had advisors
But, she did say that the social interaction part in the military came to her in part from the people she was around when she was growing up. Haven't you ever heard two old soldiers talk after they got together? They're discussions that at times seem to have no end. And that's from just being a listener that's outside the conversation.
and even if she did, she lived in Portsmouth which implies her family members were Navy. Lots of relevant experiance to be gained from people that aren't in an Army unit or served so long ago that everythings changed. Did you miss the part where I explain everything is different for trade, unit and branch?
I'm not that familiar with the inner workings of the british navy. Several year ago, I had a cousin to be the first one of our family to join the US navy. All the other military people in my family chose the marines, air force or army. But, from what I do know of the US Navy, there is physical and weapons training in basic. There are obvious differences in certain aspects of training, if you're gonna be on a ship or driving a tank, but there are many similarities. There has even been cross training between US navy and army people, so that some of the navy can act as relief for the army people in Iraq.
No, I said she might be a base brat. No mention of the branch/trade that her father was.
It doesn't matter what her father was, since she had access to many other family members and nonfamily people that she could ask. When I was growing up, I'd ask my father specifics about planes and vehicles and weapons and he'd tell me about them. He'd get me pictures of carriers and fighters and such at the nex.
Yeah man, base brats totally pick up lots of their parents knowledge. Like who's in the officers wives club and why your NCO daddy isn't eating at the Commanders Mess Dinner.
And she has said that the social interaction information she got was largely from where she grew up and who she grew up around.

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Post by Lonestar » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:19 am

GStone wrote:
And she has said that the social interaction information she got was largely from where she grew up and who she grew up around.
That means precisely diddly, dude. It may mean that she had a passing knowledge of rank structure prior to her service, and knowledge of some guns/ships, but not much else.

Unfortunately, she seems to have intentionally concealed what she did in the RNXS and TA, which does not lend to her credibility. If it wasn't from that one line oopsie we wouldn't know that she was probably dead last on the jobs/status totem pole.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:57 am

Lonestar wrote:
GStone wrote:
And she has said that the social interaction information she got was largely from where she grew up and who she grew up around.
That means precisely diddly, dude. It may mean that she had a passing knowledge of rank structure prior to her service, and knowledge of some guns/ships, but not much else.

Unfortunately, she seems to have intentionally concealed what she did in the RNXS and TA, which does not lend to her credibility. If it wasn't from that one line oopsie we wouldn't know that she was probably dead last on the jobs/status totem pole.
I don't believe she's intentionally concealed what she did so much as not thought it particularly important. She tried out two different services and found, after a few years, that she wasn't particularly good with either one, and then moved to being a journalist talking about defense folks. Which she feels is a much more important part of her background, along with having social connections to all these military types.

As far as whether or not she actually asks these experts, I would be amazed if she didn't at least ask for some input from them. Most good authors make full use of friends and family.

I will say that, for the purposes of what is commonly argued about (the Grand Army TO&E) it is actually best for her to have been an HQ clerk as far as establishing expertise goes. At the low level that she worked at, that would give her the most background with logistics, I do believe. I don't think there's much in the VS debate which is concerned with the plausibility of combat scenes in Traviss's novels.

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