Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

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Opecoiler
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Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by Opecoiler » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:54 am

Jedi Master Spock, please post your education credentials. Perhaps if you are revealed as having a college education, I and the other members of SD.net will take you more seriously.

Better than simply posting it here would be posting them on SD.net, so you won't seem like a coward hiding in your forum. You needn't worry about the fee-you already have an email adress that is exempt from it.

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Re: Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:56 am

Opecoiler wrote:Jedi Master Spock, please post your education credentials. Perhaps if you are revealed as having a college education, I and the other members of SD.net will take you more seriously.

Better than simply posting it here would be posting them on SD.net, so you won't seem like a coward hiding in your forum. You needn't worry about the fee-you already have an email adress that is exempt from it.
Geez.
You could start by asking Poe's qualifications.
I've yet to see Wong make any comment about the rampant nonsense Poe has been posting in the "more trektardism" thread.

Seriously, these games of appeals to authority and who's got a bigger dick are really cretinous.

Why can't you focus on the arguments, for pity's sake?

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Post by Kahless » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:04 am

I think that a formal education is highly overrated sometimes. There's a lot of elitism amongst college graduates but I don't really see what makes them superior to a self educated man.

Frankly, I find a good google search better than a formal education most of the time.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:14 am

And why should he post a scan of his diploma?
  • Only that Mr. Wrong and cohorts can slag off the university or college (or whatever else the anglistic educational system offers) respective the course of studies Jedi Master Spock has attended. [•]?
  • And what use would a degree in anything have in a versus debate [•]?
  • And who says, that the posted scan of a diploma is really that of Jedi Master Spock? Do you know his real name? Would you be able to recognize it, if he would post the diploma of a friend?
  • And would you be able to recognize a fake? What is, if you couldn't check it at his university or college. In Europe, we have such thing like data privacy. Neither the universities nor the examination offices are allowed to hand out personal data.
And if it seems to some members of SDN, that it is cowardly from Jedi Master Spock to hide in its own board - although he has participated in other fora [•] - these members should think the same and more from Mr. Wrong, who really hides in its board and even refuse to answer direct questions or challenges.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:52 pm

Opecoiler wrote:Jedi Master Spock, please post your education credentials. Perhaps if you are revealed as having a college education, I and the other members of SD.net will take you more seriously.
Would you really?
Having a diploma would, all of a sudden, make his arguments more valid?
How?
An argument is either good or bad, it doesn't matter what your credentials are.
And saying argument A is better then argument B because argumenter A has an engineering degree, and argumenter B only has a college degree is stupid, and has no value whatsoever.

It is the argumentation itself which needs to be evaluated, not the person making it.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, who are you known as on SDN?
I don't recall reading about an Opecoiler there.

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Re: Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by GStone » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:38 pm

Opecoiler wrote:Jedi Master Spock, please post your education credentials. Perhaps if you are revealed as having a college education, I and the other members of SD.net will take you more seriously.

Better than simply posting it here would be posting them on SD.net, so you won't seem like a coward hiding in your forum. You needn't worry about the fee-you already have an email adress that is exempt from it.
TJHairball/BigHarryMountainMan did that. Without evidence, they dismissed his posts, at best, saying he lied about who he was and feeling sorry for who he said he was. In their discussions, they couldn't even keep right what is the requirements at BHMM's college in the carolina.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:38 pm

Opecoiler, you may be advised to read what I wrote earlier:
I, on 30 Nov 2007, wrote:I believe I have stated before everything I ought to say about this topic, especially here and here. There are only so many worthwhile ways to politely express a specific negative opinion of a person.

It may be worthwhile to note briefly what I detailed in PM to someone who suggested I should engage Wong in a "public" debate via e-mail, namely, that there is no indication such would be worth my while.

I have moved this thread to "Rules of Evidence" per the above suggestion, mainly in the hopes that further discussion will focus on the ro
le of education and credentials in debate rather than upon the person of Michael Wong or the propaganda of SDN.

Incidentally: Who is like god arbour, it is ill mannered to change someone's name into something derogatory like "Darth Wrong," even if he does not post here.
I, on 19 Sep 2007, wrote:
I have a nice shiny degree and professional engineering license to prove my intelligence, and that's worth more than any of this ridiculous Internet nonsense.
The claim that Mr. Wong's engineering degree is special and somehow a peculiarly apt qualification has been trotted out fairly frequently, and debunked fairly frequently. I've polled this board and found that, as with most internet communities, a large percentage of this board's denizens appear to be as well or better educated.

It's also worth noting that, while engineering in general, and materials science specifically, ranks high in terms of estimated IQ for those intending to go on to graduate study (ref - for the record, M. Wong did not go on to graduate study), the IQ spread of actual working engineers (who, of course, almost invariably have professional engineering licenses as well as a college degree of some variety) is fairly large and centered on a value of 116 on a 15-point standard deviation scale (ref). While above average in the general population, it is hardly unusual. This is actually indistinguishable from average for some populations (Asians in N. America average 110 on 15 pt SD IQ tests, and Ashkenazi jews 115), and hardly unusual among the more-educated-than-average populations typical of internet communities.

So far as M. Wong's education and licensure is concerned, I have every statistical reason to consider him to be of inferior intelligence and education to a rather significant fraction of this board's population - and not just myself.

One's intelligence being "proved" does not change the basic nature of argumentation, however. Everybody should know by now that MENSA membership* will not make an invalid argument correct, and even the demonstrably brilliant are often quite wrong in ways that seem ridiculous later.

*MENSA members test 2+ SD from the mean, or IQ 130+ on a 15 pt SD scale, and are in a much better position to claim that their intelligence is "proved" than anyone not doing demonstrably better than average in graduate study.
I, on 26 Sep 2006, wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:It's very unlikely IMHO that Wong himself will ever come over here to engage in any debate. His last excuse when challenged by Captain Newland to come over to the STrek-v-SWars.Net forum and debate him was that he (Wong) would not debate anyone who did not have a degree or other "credentials"
And those who supply credentials are liable to be attacked and harassed even more - which is why I am uninterested in supplying "proof" of my formal education, and minimize the amount of personally identifiable information I put up on this website. Wong is welcome to come over to debate - as is any other SDN resident - if and only if he is willing to follow board rules.
Socar wrote:I find that surprising, considering how many people (such as his own Governors and Senators) that he debates with on SDN all the time that don’t have degrees of any sort. Not sure exactly what he means by other “credentials” though. I do remember Captain Newland admitting to having almost no science knowledge though, so that could be it, even though he was more interested in debating tactics and stuff of that nature, so I don’t really see why that would mean he’s not worthy of debating.
Mike DiCenso wrote:With the first part there it is more one of politics. Wong can't afford to alienate some of those people. I don't recall the specifics anymore of what Captain Newland said about his own science knowledge. But that really isn't the point, as I recall Wong's response to the challenge ( believe Swede was acting as the messenger there). I believe CN's mentioning his lack of science knowledge and what-have-you was part of the post challenge reponse discussion. At any rate, it was pretty heated, and Wong's excuse was hypocritical to say the least given the past history of the man as even you point out.
It may be hypocritical; it may be illogical. However, it is the party line consistently given by Wong, loudly and repeatedly. The claim of that party line is that all educated individuals will inevitably fall in line with his claims - and that pro-Trek VS debaters are equivalent to creationists, of course. This ties into the claim often made on SDN that the debate is over and "won."

The simple fact is that the vast majority of VS debaters are not possessed of the formal education of a bachelor's degree or any other measurable equivalent to 4 years of study within a post-secondary institution. This does not change the validity of their contributions one whit.

Even in serious academic fields (e.g., the mathematical sciences), those without formal educations can continue to contribute. In the considerably less scientific field of fandom studies, someone without a high school diploma may possess a better grasp of Star Wars than someone holding a doctorate in physics.

In any event, those with formal educations - such as myself, Schneider, Kennedy, Wong, or Saxton - should know better than to claim that a formal education can turn you into an authority on Star Trek or Star Wars.
I invite you to read the threads in which those were posted (most recent, less recent, and earliest), and consider carefully what else was said in those threads. You might also consider the thread "Split: Is it appropriate to say Wong is "hiding"?" to which I did not actually contribute anything material, but still says one or two interesting things you might consider relevant.

In the mean time, Opecoiler, I would like you to consider the varying qualifications actually offered by people, and what difference (if any) it makes in their arguments - has the discussion of qualifications improved the discourse any, or simply provided distraction from actual material argument (as seen, for example, on ST.com)?

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Post by Socar » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:14 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Oh, and just out of curiosity, who are you known as on SDN?
I don't recall reading about an Opecoiler there.
I believe he is known as Coiler on SDN.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:25 pm

I'am almost half-tempted into saying that JMS should give his science/engineering credentials just for the reason that it would give Mike Wong less of an excuse not to come over here to SFN for a debate with JMS or anyone else.

However I'am sure that as with Dr. Bernd Schneider and Graham Kennedy, there will be vicious personal attacks against JMS that will be nothing but a distraction from any reasonable and productive debate.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by GStone » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:07 pm

Some feel that JMS is BigHairyMountainMan at SDN by claiming a similarity of writing styles. It's likely that this'll turn into a brain bug for them and it'll be taken as fact, like many took Saxton's tachyonic matter conversion idea to heart. For me, as I look back to what I remember about BHMM and the pages JMS has up, as well as the posts he's made, I don't feel that they are the same person. There are some similarities, but I can also point to writings that I have done that have traits of what was written by BHMM and JMS.

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Re: Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:46 pm

GStone wrote:TJHairball/BigHarryMountainMan did that. Without evidence, they dismissed his posts, at best, saying he lied about who he was and feeling sorry for who he said he was. In their discussions, they couldn't even keep right what is the requirements at BHMM's college in the carolina.
Case in point of what I mentioned earlier: "And those who supply credentials are liable to be attacked and harassed even more..." et cetera.

And did any productive material argument follow? I would be surprised if it did.
Some feel that JMS is BigHairyMountainMan at SDN by claiming a similarity of writing styles. It's likely that this'll turn into a brain bug for them and it'll be taken as fact, like many took Saxton's tachyonic matter conversion idea to heart. For me, as I look back to what I remember about BHMM and the pages JMS has up, as well as the posts he's made, I don't feel that they are the same person. There are some similarities, but I can also point to writings that I have done that have traits of what was written by BHMM and JMS.
"I am Spartacus!" "No, I am Spartacus!"

If all of us claim to be BHMM, would they start suspecting us all to be different people?

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Re: Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by Cock_Knocker » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:50 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Geez.
You could start by asking Poe's qualifications.
I went to Cal State Long Beach straight out of high school, but transferred to Columbia College - Hollywood one semester later. I dropped out in 1986; three years later. CCH wasn't the professional institute it is today; it was very slipshod in management and the faculty left a lot to be desired. I went between 1984-1986, when it was next door to KCOP on La Brea Avenue. (BTW, a Trekkie in the class was able to keep 35mm pieces of TOS that KCOP would trim to play more commercials between episodes). Two years in, I went to the Dean, and insisted on the cinema courses that went to that school for in the first place. Instead, I trudged through 2 years of broadcast/TV courses. I was informed I'd have to "skip" my A.A. degree to be moved into cinema ahead of schedule. I didn't give a rat's ass about an A.A.; I wanted the cinema courses.

So I got 'em. And they were pure shit. One course that made my mind up not to waste any further time there was "Animal Handling." Four hours of lecture for..."Animal Handling". That pretty much ended my higher education. Happy?
I've yet to see Wong make any comment about the rampant nonsense Poe has been posting in the "more trektardism" thread.
Probably because I'm making sense. In which case, you'd be hard pressed to understand my posts.

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Re: Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:35 am

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Geez.
You could start by asking Poe's qualifications.
I went to Cal State Long Beach straight out of high school, but transferred to Columbia College - Hollywood one semester later. I dropped out in 1986; three years later. CCH wasn't the professional institute it is today; it was very slipshod in management and the faculty left a lot to be desired. I went between 1984-1986, when it was next door to KCOP on La Brea Avenue. (BTW, a Trekkie in the class was able to keep 35mm pieces of TOS that KCOP would trim to play more commercials between episodes). Two years in, I went to the Dean, and insisted on the cinema courses that went to that school for in the first place. Instead, I trudged through 2 years of broadcast/TV courses. I was informed I'd have to "skip" my A.A. degree to be moved into cinema ahead of schedule. I didn't give a rat's ass about an A.A.; I wanted the cinema courses.

So I got 'em. And they were pure shit. One course that made my mind up not to waste any further time there was "Animal Handling." Four hours of lecture for..."Animal Handling". That pretty much ended my higher education. Happy?
I've yet to see Wong make any comment about the rampant nonsense Poe has been posting in the "more trektardism" thread.
Probably because I'm making sense. In which case, you'd be hard pressed to understand my posts.
For the first part, fine, I don't care. I don't need to know where you come from to adress your arguments, but fine if you felt forced to spill it out.

For the second part, that's a very cheap baiting you've tried there. You can still check the two or three threads dealing with your own pages in the "outer website" forum section.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jedi Master Spock, post your education credentials

Post by GStone » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:42 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Case in point of what I mentioned earlier: "And those who supply credentials are liable to be attacked and harassed even more..." et cetera.

And did any productive material argument follow? I would be surprised if it did.
Only of an example of how to tear apart provided evidence to make it look like the provider is a liar. But, SDN has given many examples of that over the years on its board and the website.
"I am Spartacus!" "No, I am Spartacus!"

If all of us claim to be BHMM, would they start suspecting us all to be different people?
They'd probably start calling us 'BHMM cockgoblins', say we are kids that don't have any constructive arguments to give, so we're just shouting shit and finish it by saying that we still can't show anyone with a degree would agree with our side.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:00 am

Wayne Poe wrote:Probably because I'm making sense.
In your opinion, and in the opinion of the denizens of SDN, who generally have a similar POV on ST vs SW matters.
But to a lot of us, you don't always make sense...

And since I have a full-fledged degree in Electronics, and work in an optics company, I guess I can therefore, according to Mr. Wong's way of thinking, declare that anything you say has no value in the SW vs ST debate, since you have no scientific qualifications.
See, it goes both ways...

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