Revenge of the EU Completists

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Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by 2046 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:15 pm

How the hell did I miss this?

http://www.theforce.net/story/front/Ang ... 160167.asp

Notable bits:
One of the movement's most controversial early actions was a comment storm on A New Dawn's release date. The aim was to draw attention to the movement and flood the Facebook and Twitter presences of Disney, Lucasfilm, Del Rey, and their employees with pro-Legends messages. Someone had suggested doing the same thing a few months prior, but that attempt appears to have gained little traction. This time around, the movement was ready to go. On August 5, in the group "Star Wars EU Forever," Edward Antonowicz posted, "Starting on September 2, 2014, Star Wars Books will be getting a surprise from us."

Indeed, the Star Wars Books Facebook page did get a surprise. Page administrators ended up deleting pro-Legends comments -- which were mostly spamming unrelated conversation threads -- at a record pace.
"As of today, A New Dawn has dropped out of the USA Today Top 150 Books list," Timothy Moore wrote on September 20, almost three weeks after the book's release. "You cannot find it on that chart which means it will most likely not make the NY Times best seller list anytime in the near future. The people have spoken with their money, we're not buying it! Death to that new canon and long live the EU. ‪#‎UntilVictoryAlways‬!"
As part of their plan to build resistance against Disney projects like Rebels, members of the movement devised another comment storm, this one aimed at hijacking the publicity surrounding Star Wars Rebels' premiere on Friday, October 3. This "Rebel Raid," as it was called, channeled the movement's energy into posts on official Star Wars pages "demanding them to continue" publishing EU stories.
The dislike of and suspicion about Star Wars Rebels -- most of which came from people who had yet to see a single episode of the series -- is the product of a confluence of circumstances. {...}

More powerful than all of that, however, is the residual anger at the creators of The Clone Wars for that show's displacement of dearly-held Expanded Universe material like the original backstory for the Mandalorians. Many "save the EU" activists are hardcore Mandalorian fans.
There are some amazing links in the article, by the way, like one after the above to some of the wacky artwork going along with the 'movement':

Image

Who's ruining who's childhood, again?
Filoni is a convenient target for the more militant members of the movement. He essentially trained under Lucas like a Padawan learner on The Clone Wars, where the two men made decisions that would anger EU purists.
Although there were some comments supporting Filoni, the vast majority attacked and insulted him. James Puso, who appreciated Filoni's work, said, "His breed is a dying one in the world of animation," to which Gonzales responded, "Trust me, that's not a bad thing."

"He is aiding Disney in the destruction of Star Wars now with this new canon garbage," Gonzales wrote.
Other comments in the same thread nitpicked technical details based on EU errata -- "The Imperial IInd class Star Destroyer is too big to enter planetary atmosphere" -- and promised to pirate the series as a way of defying Disney.

Responding to a member of the movement who praised the premiere, Timothy Moore wrote, "I forbid you to like anything about it."
"The tone of the comments lead me to believe that people are in denial," said Bryan Young, a co-host of the Full of Sith podcast and a blogger for StarWars.com, BigShinyRobot.com, and other sites. "Arguments over what is and isn't canon run rampant and they always devolve into personal attacks."
No, not the same Brian. I quoted for the fun canon bit.
The outside perception of the movement is not its biggest hurdle. That would be the futility of its very goals. But the fact that the campaign has such a negative reputation will not make things any easier for its most fervent supporters. When it comes to protest movements, perception is reality, and in the world beyond this insular, angry, and factually-challenged community, the perception is not good.
Wow. Where was this sort of coverage during the Traviss attacks?

More from the comments:
SWhockeyfan • 6 months ago

This reminds me of a story from this past years Star Wars Weekends. A young man was so incensed that Rebels was now rendering his precious Starkiller obsolete, that he had to tell everyone in line, and even told Vanessa Marshall herself that he didn't get why Starkiller wasn't the guy who founded the Rebel Alliance. The guy was yelling it. What a way to trivialize the hard work that she and everyone else has done on that show. I don't understand this type of hatred for something that gave you so much enjoyment. It boggles the mind.
This SO brings back memories of the SDN crowd. All we need is active death threats against Filoni et al. to keep the flame going. Stay classy, EU Completists!

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:40 pm

Please, please tell me this is an April Fools joke...
-Mike

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by 2046 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:10 pm

That's from October 2014, I'm sad to say.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:06 pm

2046 wrote:
"The tone of the comments lead me to believe that people are in denial," said Bryan Young, a co-host of the Full of Sith podcast and a blogger for StarWars.com, BigShinyRobot.com, and other sites. "Arguments over what is and isn't canon run rampant and they always devolve into personal attacks."
No, not the same Brian. I quoted for the fun canon bit.
You nearly caught me.

------------------

And when I thought that the mutant-EU by Disney would kinda please the majority of both sides!
They almost recoil from the stench of Lucas, no matter how volatile and barely sniffable it is.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Lucky » Fri May 08, 2015 8:53 am

http://www.theforce.net/story/front/Anger_Leads_To_Hate_Inside_The_Movement_To_Save_The_Expanded_Universe_160167.asp wrote: "I won't spend one dime on Star Wars until they make it crystal clear how much money I've wasted over the past thirty years," wrote Tony Castronovo.
This doesn't make any sense. This Tony guy was spending money on Star Wars, but wasn't enjoying what he was purchasing for years? If this Tony guy did not enjoy the books , comics, etc, why was he buying them?

These guys aren't right in the head.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed May 13, 2015 4:09 pm

Lucky wrote:
http://www.theforce.net/story/front/Anger_Leads_To_Hate_Inside_The_Movement_To_Save_The_Expanded_Universe_160167.asp wrote: "I won't spend one dime on Star Wars until they make it crystal clear how much money I've wasted over the past thirty years," wrote Tony Castronovo.
This doesn't make any sense. This Tony guy was spending money on Star Wars, but wasn't enjoying what he was purchasing for years? If this Tony guy did not enjoy the books , comics, etc, why was he buying them?

These guys aren't right in the head.
What he's saying that is that if all the money he spent was on material that's considered fanon... wait, I mean LEGENDS!, he's going to feel insulted and not going to bother spending more money on what is going to be a new EU.
Also, he problably was a diehard EU completist who thought the whole saga, including the EU, as one big canon, and might have well considered some books superior to some movies (or certain editions of them).
In other words, he put much value into the EU material and now it's pretty much gone.

All this nerd rage might get quieter if Disney is willing to produce some movies or shows which will serve as massive EU recylers, to appease the EUphiles of old age.
As I said in another thread, I could very well see Disney pull a Marvel by doing a 9999... version of the EU for the new saga, revisiting characters under new circumstances.
Hence we'd get a CGI or some handdrawn show featuring a Mara Jade, a Luke Skywalker and a Thrawn.
Another movie would, this time, focus on Palpatine as a Sith apprentice and look into Plagueis. That's such an obvious cash-in, I'd be surprised for Disney not to pull such a prequel in some video form.

The real problem is that the new EU is based solely on the Disney canon. It would be a real mess to pull the most recent best sellers from the old EU and have them adapted to the new EU: all the small references would have to be verified and validated or ruled out.
Surely, a tiresome job, requiring special editions of previously released material. I'm not even sure it would be worth the cost for Disney; they'd just be reselling the same books as "diet", with less this and that to conform to the Disney EU, DisnEU, or DEU for the shortest formula.

Something to verify: have the new DEU books specifically avoided making any references to the old EU?
Is it that only the movie creators, and perhaps the writers of novelizations to a much lesser degree, have the right to recycle stuff from the old EU?

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by 2046 » Thu May 14, 2015 3:59 am

The terrorists have won, by that standard.

Licensing folks and Del Rey are bringing in as much old EU as possible at the fastest possible rate.

Luceno said in an interview that he basically considered the EU valid unless contradicted, and worked in whatever he felt appropriate, whoch is why Tarkin sucked. And the new Ultimate Star Wars book by DK is basically a big recanonization festival, featuring some of the goofiest EU concepts warmed over and served as fresh.

Basically, this new canon is a rejection of Lucas Star Wars as seen in the films and confirmed via TCW, even though ostensibly those constitute the immovable objects of the new universe. It has basically become a comic book mishmash of irreconcilable differences.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 17, 2015 8:34 pm

2046 wrote:The terrorists have won, by that standard.

Licensing folks and Del Rey are bringing in as much old EU as possible at the fastest possible rate.

Luceno said in an interview that he basically considered the EU valid unless contradicted, and worked in whatever he felt appropriate, whoch is why Tarkin sucked. And the new Ultimate Star Wars book by DK is basically a big recanonization festival, featuring some of the goofiest EU concepts warmed over and served as fresh.

Basically, this new canon is a rejection of Lucas Star Wars as seen in the films and confirmed via TCW, even though ostensibly those constitute the immovable objects of the new universe. It has basically become a comic book mishmash of irreconcilable differences.

What a mess. Disney missed a great occasion to build up an interesting multi-layered franchise as far as their SW is concerned. A little bit more thinking and preparation would have covered this problem quite easily.
All they had to do is eventually continue the Legends series but limit it to books, and then have like the most recent video games belong to both Legends and "Regular" universes; if the official chronologies were represented by horizontal parallelal lines and each item (book, movie, show or game) marked as a vertical band crossing one or more of the horizontal ones, these big video games would stretch over both universes I just mentionned... the same way movies belonged to Lucas' universe and the EU.
Video games make few references to the EU in general compared to books and other random official guides, and tend to use the lest annoying bits.
The most damaging game might be the Old Republic MMO, that would probably push a ton of the old EU stuff for building a narrative background for innumerable (boring) quests.
But I guess a specific cleaning procedure could be applied to this game for the purpose of its integration.

That way they could continue to build on the popular KOTOR series, AND still be free of the Legends EU.

They could have handled SW with universes and an encompassing multiverse. That way, they could have even included the other EU products which were considered out of the main EU, like those alternative stories where Luke didn't shoot the torpedo through the porthole.
Damn, I can't believe it, with such examples right under their nose, they couldn't even think of that?
Or something similar to DC's PW with the Central Continuity and Hypertime (and Disney's SW doesn't need to get that complicated).
Besides, Lucas' numerous clarifications about the status of the EU as a [gasp] parallelal universe should have been a solid clue as the way to go.

With a concept such as the Omniverse, they could even produce tons of SW/Marvel crossovers. Books, comics, games.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Lucky » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:55 am

Lucky wrote:
http://www.theforce.net/story/front/Anger_Leads_To_Hate_Inside_The_Movement_To_Save_The_Expanded_Universe_160167.asp wrote: "I won't spend one dime on Star Wars until they make it crystal clear how much money I've wasted over the past thirty years," wrote Tony Castronovo.
This doesn't make any sense. This Tony guy was spending money on Star Wars, but wasn't enjoying what he was purchasing for years? If this Tony guy did not enjoy the books , comics, etc, why was he buying them?

These guys aren't right in the head.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: What he's saying that is that if all the money he spent was on material that's considered fanon... wait, I mean LEGENDS!, he's going to feel insulted and not going to bother spending more money on what is going to be a new EU.
Also, he problably was a diehard EU completist who thought the whole saga, including the EU, as one big canon, and might have well considered some books superior to some movies (or certain editions of them).
In other words, he put much value into the EU material and now it's pretty much gone.

All this nerd rage might get quieter if Disney is willing to produce some movies or shows which will serve as massive EU recylers, to appease the EUphiles of old age.
As I said in another thread, I could very well see Disney pull a Marvel by doing a 9999... version of the EU for the new saga, revisiting characters under new circumstances.
Hence we'd get a CGI or some handdrawn show featuring a Mara Jade, a Luke Skywalker and a Thrawn.
Another movie would, this time, focus on Palpatine as a Sith apprentice and look into Plagueis. That's such an obvious cash-in, I'd be surprised for Disney not to pull such a prequel in some video form.

The real problem is that the new EU is based solely on the Disney canon. It would be a real mess to pull the most recent best sellers from the old EU and have them adapted to the new EU: all the small references would have to be verified and validated or ruled out.
Surely, a tiresome job, requiring special editions of previously released material. I'm not even sure it would be worth the cost for Disney; they'd just be reselling the same books as "diet", with less this and that to conform to the Disney EU, DisnEU, or DEU for the shortest formula.

Something to verify: have the new DEU books specifically avoided making any references to the old EU?
Is it that only the movie creators, and perhaps the writers of novelizations to a much lesser degree, have the right to recycle stuff from the old EU?
My point went way over your head to the point you aren't even responding to what I was talking about.

This Tony was purchasing stuff he didn't want or enjoy for "30" years. This guy apparently has a serious mental health a problem, and doesn't realize it.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:46 pm

Lucky wrote: My point went way over your head to the point you aren't even responding to what I was talking about.
I actually did and you didn't understand my reply.
This Tony was purchasing stuff he didn't want or enjoy for "30" years. This guy apparently has a serious mental health a problem, and doesn't realize it.
Nothing of that.
He had an attachment to the material he acquired, but Disney's decision made it look like all the material he bought was not considered relevant anymore, from a narrative and canonical standpoint. This slap in the face is what rubbed him the wrong way.
You got to realize than an EUphile is heavily convinced that the EU of old is/was an integral part of the real canon. Disney's act busts all this reality.

But don't bother, Dishney seems to stupidly backpedal on all of this now and reintegrate the old EU instead of, smartly, letting the old EU go on on its own path and letting the new EU recycle some stuff with a new spin.
Apparently, it seems the book do make some money after all and they don't want to lose it.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Lucky » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:41 am

Lucky wrote: My point went way over your head to the point you aren't even responding to what I was talking about.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I actually did and you didn't understand my reply.
This Tony was purchasing stuff he didn't want or enjoy for "30" years. This guy apparently has a serious mental health a problem, and doesn't realize it.
Nothing of that.
He had an attachment to the material he acquired, but Disney's decision made it look like all the material he bought was not considered relevant anymore, from a narrative and canonical standpoint. This slap in the face is what rubbed him the wrong way.
You got to realize than an EUphile is heavily convinced that the EU of old is/was an integral part of the real canon. Disney's act busts all this reality.

But don't bother, Dishney seems to stupidly backpedal on all of this now and reintegrate the old EU instead of, smartly, letting the old EU go on on its own path and letting the new EU recycle some stuff with a new spin.
Apparently, it seems the book do make some money after all and they don't want to lose it.
Being "canon" or "Legends" has no impact the story's content. Disney's actions are irrelevant to Tony's enjoyment of his past purchases unless he was purchasing Star Wars for reasons other then he enjoyed the stories.


There are a number of reasons to collect things as a hobby, but Tony sounds like he was collecting for all the wrong reasons.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:52 pm

Being "canon" or "Legends" has no impact the story's content. Disney's actions are irrelevant to Tony's enjoyment of his past purchases unless he was purchasing Star Wars for reasons other then he enjoyed the stories.

There are a number of reasons to collect things as a hobby, but Tony sounds like he was collecting for all the wrong reasons.
That's precisely the proof that you understand little about canon and not seasoned enough about those questions. Let me enlighten you here.
For EUphiles, it meant a lot to prove that their beloved expanded universe was part of the canon. It fueled massive debates over several boards for nearly two decades.
See, there's an ego thing going on here, since they couldn't accept to enjoy material that was, at best, considered some kind of illegitimate bastard child of the SW saga. For that, many of them often were at odds with Lucas' more purist statements and used the most convoluted acrobatics to make them say what they didn't say. Other more extreme EUphiles would go as far as to say screw GL, we know better (than the creator/owner of the franchise).
In a way, that's understandable, because what you really like, you want it to be respected.
The decanonization of what they considered so close to the movies, even sometimes superior to them, was an affront. A spit in the face. Hence the feeling of having wasted all that time and money into stuff which, by Disney's actions, looked like it didn't really belong to SW anymore and would be best seen as nothing more than glorified shity fanon sold for gold.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Lucky » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:07 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: That's precisely the proof that you understand little about canon and not seasoned enough about those questions. Let me enlighten you here.
Baseless assumptions, condescending manner, and insults.

You should keep in mind that you're the inexperienced newcomer, and not the other way around, and you appear to understand very little about mental illness which what I was talking about in the case of people like this Tony.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: For EUphiles, it meant a lot to prove that their beloved expanded universe was part of the canon. It fueled massive debates over several boards for nearly two decades.
I'm not seeing anything I didn't already know before you ever came on the scene.

If EUphiles actually were educated about the EU and liked the "Legends" materials then they wouldn't be doing that because it is and pretty much always has been a self contradictory mess, and they should have made a huge stink over Episode 2 and Episode 3 throwing out large chunks of it.

You sound like your talking about VS debaters rather then Star Wars fans.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: See, there's an ego thing going on here, since they couldn't accept to enjoy material that was, at best, considered some kind of illegitimate bastard child of the SW saga. For that, many of them often were at odds with Lucas' more purist statements and used the most convoluted acrobatics to make them say what they didn't say. Other more extreme EUphiles would go as far as to say screw GL, we know better (than the creator/owner of the franchise).
And where is this new information that I'm not aware of?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: In a way, that's understandable, because what you really like, you want it to be respected.
Everything you've described is a lack of respect for Star Wars by what you call EUphiles. If you like something then you respect it for what it is, and not what you want it to be. What guys like Tony shows is a lack of respect for what he/she/they were collecting by calling it worthless if it doesn't have a meaningless marketing gimmick attached to it.

Tony only liked the Star wars EU so long as it was "canon". He considerers his money wasted if the EU is not canon. This means he does not enjoy the "Legends" material on its own merits. He doesn't actually like the "Legends" material.

If the complaint was simply a matter of being unhappy about the "Legends" story lines being discontinued it would be a different matter.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The decanonization of what they considered so close to the movies, even sometimes superior to them, was an affront. A spit in the face. Hence the feeling of having wasted all that time and money into stuff which, by Disney's actions, looked like it didn't really belong to SW anymore and would be best seen as nothing more than glorified shity fanon sold for gold.
The value of the "Legends" material to a true fan of the "Legends" materials has not gone up or down by being declared "Legends". The stories are still there just the same, and all they ever were are fictional stories intended to be entertaining. There's something wrong with the person if being "canon" has any relevance to if they like the story or not.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by mojo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:27 pm

Good lord! That escalated quickly!

Does it have to be one or the other?
Personally, I absolutely loved the Thrawn trilogy. Loved. LOVED! But while I still love the stories as much as I always have, understanding the pre-Disney canon policy DID affect the way I looked at the novels. I found the debate after reading them, and for me, realizing they were useless here definitely affected their value.
My interest in the debate affects my valuation of the EU. I'm sure it does the same for Oragahn. Oragahn is just assuming that's what's happening with this other person. It seems a fair assumption. It seems more likely than the idea that he's spent decades reading books he doesn't enjoy solely for their place in the canon.
This Tony person's almost hysterical wording is the problem here, I think.

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Re: Revenge of the EU Completists

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:42 pm

The simple idea is that to some fans, it is important to them that the licence holders recognize their beloved stories as having happened.
Tony's reaction was really melodramatic but the gist of it is palatable really. And in a way, it's understandable why. It makes the events valid, solid, set in stone. Sacrifices and losses have more meaning because they're closer to "reality" as they're considered the narrative truth of those universes. Otherwise they're only what ifs: interesting, well penned if that, but only alternatives, not part of the official timeline.

How would have people reacted if Lucas had decided that The Empire Strikes Back and Return of The Jedi were to be retconned by two new movies?

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