A little game: Lucas /= Disney

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2046
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A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by 2046 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:18 am

I'm not prepared to make this jump yet, but I wanted to play with it out loud.

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Let's ponder a few things . . .

1. The Lucas-helmed The Clone Wars was scuttled immediately upon the sale. Ostensibly this was merely a business decision, and indeed Filoni was kept aboard for Rebels, but he was also given two extra overseers (or side-seers, depending on who was in charge of the little triumvirate).

2. The treatment Lucas provided for Episode VII has been explicitly discarded. (At the CanonWars blog, I called this "The Clean Break".)

3. Based on trash like the novel Tarkin, character and tech data from the canon novelizations of the past (ostensibly still canon) are being ignored in favor of old EU drivel. (Heir to the Jedi was actually fairly decent, along with some of the other fiction I've seen, but generally speaking it seems like the Story Group doesn't have a tech consistency guy of the caliber of . . . well . . . anyone here.)

4. Disney has been explicit that old EU is usable in new material . . . it's just that the old EU sources don't count. That is to say, anything from the EU is free for reintroduction. Or, quoting Disney: "While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe."

With such thoughts in mind, one could make the case that this should be treated as a new universe altogether.

The old Lucas universe was very distinct from the parallel EU universe . . . even Disney has basically said this, as did Lucas and Filoni and ad infinitum beforehand. Let's quote: "While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

To explicitly create a new canon into which EU data reintroduction is welcome is to defy any such alignment. The EU was a self-referential animal, as I noted before . . . that, by necessity, required it to be separate and different.

Disney should've gone tabula rasa in regards to the EU, but didn't. This implies the desire to create a new universe, even if (like Lucas Licensing before them) they wanted to explicitly kowtow to the Lucas works.

An alternate but no less controversial view would be to staunchly refuse to accept anything but the Lucas canon and any Disney 'facts' which fit it. That is to say, one could argue that while "characters and events" does not, in and of itself, refer to "facts", the simple fact that characters and events occurred in the way in which they did requires that, generally speaking, the facts be part and parcel. Ergo, if Disney states that the Lucas canon is "immovable", inviolable events to which new tales must align, then it seems we are invited to be the arbiters.

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by Darth Spock » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:40 am

2046 wrote: With such thoughts in mind, one could make the case that this should be treated as a new universe altogether.
OK, am I oversimplifying, or does that one sentence sum things up, such as to indicate that the new films may be regarded in much the same manner as the Abrams' alternate universe Trek? Because I really don't think that's going to work, outside of the personal preferences of individuals or small groups of fans (Han still shot first.) I'd be curious to see a copy of Lucas' ideas leaked at some point, but as far as canon goes, what comes out of Disney is going to be what's "real," regardless of its departure from what GL may have intended. In that regard, I suppose I agree, this is a separate universe, but it would still be the one that our fictional viewership is attached to through the official owners of the IP, and thus "canon."

Unless new content actually contradicts the original six films or CW series, which seems highly unlikely, I don't think there will be much basis for segregation. At least I don't think it would be any more of a reason than one might consider DS9 a separate universe, as I understand many considered Roddenberry would have been against the Dominion War as a thematic centerpiece in his creation. Or, to debate whether the crew of the Enterprise D were actually killed in the prime universe, based on the legitimacy of what path the show's producers chose for us to follow in "Time Squared," "Cause and Effect," or ST 7: Generations.
3. Based on trash like the novel Tarkin, character and tech data from the canon novelizations of the past (ostensibly still canon) are being ignored in favor of old EU drivel. (Heir to the Jedi was actually fairly decent, along with some of the other fiction I've seen, but generally speaking it seems like the Story Group doesn't have a tech consistency guy of the caliber of . . . well . . . anyone here.)
Now that sounds like it may be a problem. But, since the movies often contradict the "official" novelizations any way, I imagine (hope) it would follow the same hierarchy as before: films>official novelizations>EU novelizations. Old EU, new EU, same ole, same ole. Again, as long as the higher movie canon and its official novelizations don't blatantly counter the original six films, even if they do start borrowing from the old EU, I don't personally think it will be an issue.

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:29 pm

It is a tough sell. After all, some would consider departure from the Lucas vision as a feature, not a bug, especially old EU-philes who hated Lucas. And the idea of ownership dictating canon is what I have argued for previously.

I walk a fine line with this for consistency's sake, having previously dealt with Trek anti-canonites who sought to reject the TNG-era Trek as the delusions of a drug-addled Roddenberry.

As for contradiction, there will probably never be a major incident in most people's minds. I mean, they're never going to retcon that the twins are actually Obi-Wan's or anything, most likely. However, 'minor' Disney novel contradictions with prior canon are already piling up, and the icky EU fascination with corporations where every Imperial officer is a business tycoon is already in full swing. Such contradictions-in-spirit are gonna pile up fast.

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by Darth Spock » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:35 am

Well, I expect the new trilogy won't change that much, although thinking of the completely different feel and treatment of technology Abrams brought to Trek, if too much of the original "feel" is changed, it could shake things up. Up until now, I had assumed that the SW universe wouldn't be turned completely on its head, judging how the Clone Wars and even Disney's Rebels have mostly stayed true to the spirit of Star Wars.

What dawned on me though, is that Disney is also planning a number of spin-offs, which I can see may very easily stray far from the Lucasian path, and deep into EU-land. Those films could be given similar treatment to the Ewok movies, but I see how that could in turn strengthen the case for forming a clear division between GL canon and the Disney canon as a whole, whether it's warranted or not. Thinking on the matter deeper, I think you may well be right about a noticeable rift forming in the fandom, such as to make the polarized reception of the prequels pale in comparison like a gray hair on a wookiee's pelt.

In the end, as long as any contradictions in the new films aren't too extreme, I would think the Disney releases should hold up as "official" canon, even within a fickle fandom. To cut to the chase though, the effect it might have within our specific community probably won't come into full fruition until after we see exactly what we're getting. To put it bluntly, if any of the new films even mention neutronium hulls or biggaton guns, pro-Wars inflationists are going to jump on with both feet, while most pro-Trek debaters will probably push for a clean separation. Conversely, if they start unambiguously demonstrating conventional grade weaponry as a ceiling, it'll be the pro-ICS crowd pushing for a separation from the "evil" mouse edition. Here's hoping they don't tinker with the overall environment too much, but rather stay vague and carry on.

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by 2046 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:35 pm

Well, I don't think it needs to be a partisan matter.

I mean, yeah, if Disney canon starts capping turbolasers as kilowatt weapons I expect the inflationists to deliver a partisan howl, but even now with Rebels largely carrying on the TCW tradition of making inflationists cry I am thinking the clean break may be warranted, even though this would have repercussions I wouldn't like.

Besides ... Rebels is no replacement for TCW, but it is growing on me.

But more to the point, the reason I am publicly entertaining it is intellectual honesty. Inflationists would have no such excuse if they suddenly whined louder upon the advent of kilowatts.

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by Darth Spock » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:02 am

2046 wrote:Well, I don't think it needs to be a partisan matter.
Hopefully not. I can see hashing out such a possibility in advance is not a bad idea though. I'll ante up now, I figure legal canon is official canon, Disney picks up were Lucas left off, any contradictions that come up are up to the fans to hash out. Heck, Star Trek primary canon held after nearly 40 years of production and a lot of cooks in the kitchen, before they knowingly booted up a new timeline. Star Wars can/should do the same, I think.
Besides ... Rebels is no replacement for TCW, but it is growing on me.
I hear you. I have high hopes for season 2. The sudden change in characters and environment is inevitably jarring, even if most of the production crew remained. I generally try to be a tad more forgiving of a first season of any show I sample.

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by 2046 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:43 pm

I've been thinking more seriously about this lately and believe it is the right way to go.

The universe is changing, said Disney of the EU, but not being discarded. That makes the new Disney canon a mix of Lucas canon and EU concepts. Of course it is natural that going on without Lucas means there would be room for unavoidable differences of vision, but by explicitly including the EU in the new universe I cannot help but recognize it as separate.

This being a board of folks familiar with Trek, consider Tuvix. If the Lucas canon is Tuvok and the EU canon is Neelix, then the Disney canon is Tuvix. Ostensibly Disney holds the Tuvok side as 'immovable objects' insofar as the new person is concerned, which would make this a changed Tuvok but still Tuvok going forward, but in reality we see that Tuvix charts his own path that often ignores Tuvok in fvor of Neelixisms.

How can we view him as anything else but Tuvix?

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Re: A little game: Lucas /= Disney

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:53 pm

So basically those who might have found the EU to be quite sick under Lucas, will see this new EU has sick^Disney.

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