New Star Wars canon system?

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2046
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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:20 pm

There is no evidence that the old EU is now valid… the statements refer to one universe as a goal "going forward".


However, it could yet happen, which is the point of alarm. But as noted, EU-philes think this is the death of their EU, so it can cut both ways.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:51 pm

2046 wrote:There is no evidence that the old EU is now valid… the statements refer to one universe as a goal "going forward".
However, it could yet happen, which is the point of alarm. But as noted, EU-philes think this is the death of their EU, so it can cut both ways.

When I sad integrate as much as possible, it can go from 1% to 99%. It just depends on the freedom that's required for the new movies. If a whole city worth of EU goes to the trash, I won't be surprised. I didn't mean the old EU would suddenly be as valid as movies, but more like Disney may very well be much more willing than Lucas to borrow elements from the EU.

It's not like the original EUphiles will weigh much in cash compared to what the new movies may tug in their wake in terms of new merchandising.
Especially if they're more successful than the horrible prequels, which shouldn't be too hard. The biggest issue being that the story seems to be handled by plot-hack JJA (but I'm not much up to date on that part).

The EUphiles have, or had I should say a view of their EU being "alive".
I don't think merchandising management would change much as far as books, games and comics are concerned. Authors will be signed in to produce some more and conform to the new movies probably, glue some gaps between the Rebels' episodes, etc.
The extra material, once called Expanded Universe, could very well be handled the same way.

What they left vague is if movies would be superior or not. Considering how the whole hierarchy seems to annoy them and they want one big universe, perhaps not. That's a huge change for the moment.

However, perhaps LSG doesn't plan on producing a flood of merchandising either, although that's doubtful considering how this has been making some money for years.
I mean, if they limited themselves to less side stories, less books, perhaps it could be reasonable to have books and movies at the same level.

Besides, Disney's business model doesn't need to conform at all to the way Lucas handled his empire. These days, you often get successful books or series of books turned into movies or shows. I could very well see Disney putting highly ranked authors on the task to pen a very good story arc, only to have plans to adapt them later on.
Which wouldn't be without problems regarding the same canonical debate.

So, ok, EUphiles are largely worried because they hoped for eons that their post-ROTJ characters would end in a movie, that they were worth that rank. Namely, that the next movies could very well be based on Zahn's books.

Which, incidentaly, if had it ever happened, would have probably not been without inconsistencies. But once they'd have seen their favourites characters on screen, I'm pretty sure they'd have suddenly displayed unique wills to brush those little problems under the rug. In other words, they'd have accepted their Mara Jade and Thrawn to be 90% identical to the books but largely hated that these same characters would be considered "wrong", outsiders of the real SW universe.

There are many Bantham fans out there as well...

They're concerned because the EU covers so much that those new movies could totally erase the post-ROTJ in order to be free. Would have Lucas made thoes 7-9 movies, they'd have cried the same way. Their EU is more than ever always at risk.

Now actors are too old for the New Republic trilogy. But there's still the ton of characters who appeared towards the New Jedi Order era, which is when the movies will take place, more or less. And there's zero indication that Disney plans to respect any of that at all.

So in a way, Disney may very well do what Lucas would have done, although the later clearly left himself be influenced by the EU more and more, especially to cash on fans' appreciation of certains EU characters (like the blue twi'lek Jedi, Ayala Secura I think).
The whole TCW, despite trampling some EU, also was a lazy big cart of fan service for easy bucks.

Last question: if Disney really reboots the post-ROTJ era, will it continue to produce materials that conform to the old EU as some kind of altverse arc, or will they entirely ditch it in favour of their One Big Universe?

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:47 pm

While her phrasings remind me of the iffy use of the term "canon" that Sue Rostoni was rocking circa the 90's, we do have one of the first statements on canon from Kathleen Kennedy. And to me, it seems to run contrary to what we've been hearing lately.

http://screenrant.com/star-wars-spinoff ... onnection/
“George [Lucas] was so clear as to how that works. The canon that he created was the Star Wars saga. Right now, episode seven falls within that canon. The spin-off movies, or we may come up with some other way to call those films, they exist within that vast universe that he created.

“There is no attempt being made to carry characters (from the standalone films) in and out of the saga episodes. Consequently, from the creative standpoint, it’s a roadmap that George made pretty clear.”
The way I take that, she's saying that the standalone Star Wars films that have been reported are basically going to be EU material or otherwise outside the primary canon, which implies that there is still going to be a distinction of canons.

However, the quote above, however clear George made it, is rather sloppily put, or sloppily quoted by the journalist. There seems a confounding of the term canon with the notion of the six film saga, and a confounding of what isn't canon as existing in "that vast universe", by which she presumably actually means something more like "sandbox".

Of course, I can hear the old EU-phile crowd just having kittens over my parsing of the quote, but then I do have a rather good track record with that sort of thing, much to their consternation.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:05 pm

2046 wrote:While her phrasings remind me of the iffy use of the term "canon" that Sue Rostoni was rocking circa the 90's, we do have one of the first statements on canon from Kathleen Kennedy. And to me, it seems to run contrary to what we've been hearing lately.

http://screenrant.com/star-wars-spinoff ... onnection/
“George [Lucas] was so clear as to how that works. The canon that he created was the Star Wars saga. Right now, episode seven falls within that canon. The spin-off movies, or we may come up with some other way to call those films, they exist within that vast universe that he created.

“There is no attempt being made to carry characters (from the standalone films) in and out of the saga episodes. Consequently, from the creative standpoint, it’s a roadmap that George made pretty clear.”
The way I take that, she's saying that the standalone Star Wars films that have been reported are basically going to be EU material or otherwise outside the primary canon, which implies that there is still going to be a distinction of canons.

However, the quote above, however clear George made it, is rather sloppily put, or sloppily quoted by the journalist. There seems a confounding of the term canon with the notion of the six film saga, and a confounding of what isn't canon as existing in "that vast universe", by which she presumably actually means something more like "sandbox".

Of course, I can hear the old EU-phile crowd just having kittens over my parsing of the quote, but then I do have a rather good track record with that sort of thing, much to their consternation.
However, from the quote alone, saga = vast universe [G.L.] created, and episode 7 will belong to that saga.
Episode 7 is as a spin off and also a stand-alone movie. The 6 former movies seem to also be considered stand alone movies, and movies not made by G.L. are considered spin offs, although one could always say that the prequels were spin-offs of the original trilogy.
In other words, this quotation heavily swings towards the purist side.
As always, it's a mess. It even sounds like she's more trying to be more royal than the king.

The problem has always been if fans would buy merchandising that's an expansion from the movies if said group was officially declared an enjoyable and worthwhile experiment in fictional extrapolation, even if it's not to be taken at face value, contrary to Theater/TV material?

That's basically option 1, the EU is fun but nowhere close to the truth, since it's only revealed through the movies. The EU tries to remain whole and coherent and stick to the movies, but it's never going to be recognized as a legitimate child. It's really a sad story.
Somehow, that would be the Lucas policy.

Option 2 has 99.99% of the Star Wars material being canonical, but movies still win in case of any contradiction. That's the clasic EU completist dance.

The Holocron really works in either options, although it seem that inside the merchandising department, option 2 was favoured (we can understand why).

Now, the final and REALLY craziest option, all new: are they really going to force the new movies to conform to facts to be established in future books never meant to be turned into movies?
I can't even think of one single universe which has followed such a scheme.
Even novelizations take a second seat (and iirc, under the Holocron even movie books were relegated to C-canon).

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Tyralak » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:38 am

Lucas now has literally zero influence on Star Wars now. He sold the rights, and has washed his hands of it completely. Disney moved all production from the Ranch to Los Angeles, and he is giving no input whatsoever on the new films or any subsequent productions. Basically, they are free to do anything they please.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:13 am

Tyralak wrote:Lucas now has literally zero influence on Star Wars now. He sold the rights, and has washed his hands of it completely. Disney moved all production from the Ranch to Los Angeles, and he is giving no input whatsoever on the new films or any subsequent productions. Basically, they are free to do anything they please.
Some have suggested that Lucas is operating as a consultant, but other press reports suggest there's been virtually no communication.

In any case, yes, Disney is free to do as they please. They could, in principle, decanonize the six films and declare only the Marvel comic with the giant bunny rabbit canon, which would have the amusing result of totally soiling uncounted thousands of pairs of already-bear-tracked nerd undies. But, the interest here is trying to figure out just what the crap they *are* doing, which is difficult thanks to the conflicting reports.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:28 pm

Tyralak wrote:Lucas now has literally zero influence on Star Wars now. He sold the rights, and has washed his hands of it completely. Disney moved all production from the Ranch to Los Angeles, and he is giving no input whatsoever on the new films or any subsequent productions. Basically, they are free to do anything they please.
Who's that Lucas guy you keep talking about?

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Tyralak » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:30 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Tyralak wrote:Lucas now has literally zero influence on Star Wars now. He sold the rights, and has washed his hands of it completely. Disney moved all production from the Ranch to Los Angeles, and he is giving no input whatsoever on the new films or any subsequent productions. Basically, they are free to do anything they please.
Who's that Lucas guy you keep talking about?
I think he's the janitor, but I'm not sure. He said something about coming up with the story, but we all know it was Chee.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:43 am

I'm just curious why they even bothered to keep Chee around

the guy seems like he's responsible for the fuck ups and nightmares that is the EU

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:27 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:I'm just curious why they even bothered to keep Chee around

the guy seems like he's responsible for the fuck ups and nightmares that is the EU
Huh, how?
He seems to have just been in charge of the trailer squad, the one qualified in tracking Lucas' scent and doing their best to keep the rest of the caravan in queue. Quite a hard tastk.
Are you refering to some specific in-house mishap?

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Re: New Star Wars canon system

Post by Iscander » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:03 pm

Michaelcoage wrote:Pretty self-explanatory, though a bit confusing since I was under the impression that all "movies" were highest-level canon, though the new Clone Wars movie seems to be a potentially ambiguous case.
Damn it. The machines are learning.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... h+a#p12044

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