New Star Wars canon system?

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Lucky
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New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Lucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:18 am

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/stat ... 7723430912
[url]https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/420247757723430912[/url] wrote:

Paul Dunahoo ‏@pauldunahoo 5 Jan
Just finished Heir to the Empire. It was an amazing book, and I’ll be saddened to see its canon overwritten by the new movies.
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Reagan Knopp ‏@rwknopp 5 Jan
@pauldunahoo has the EU ever been considered cannon?
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Paul Dunahoo ‏@pauldunahoo 5 Jan
@rwknopp Always has been, unless something from The Clone Wars or movies override it (such as the Jedi Twilight book - it was overridden).
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Reagan Knopp ‏@rwknopp 5 Jan
@pauldunahoo Lucas sees it as two universes (Not that I care what he thinks). There’s different levels of cannon: http://d.pr/UDmH
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Paul Dunahoo ‏@pauldunahoo 5 Jan
@rwknopp …erases the canon. Also, George Lucas does not have the ability to define how canon is treated. (@HolocronKeeper does)
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Leland Chee ‏@HolocronKeeper 5 Jan
@pauldunahoo @rwknopp Star Wars Canon is now determined by the Lucasfilm Story Group which @infinata and I are both a part of.
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Cad Bane ‏@A_Targaryen 5 Jan
@HolocronKeeper will the new Marvel Star Wars comics be considered canon or they could still be contradicted by the movies and tv shows?
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Leland Chee ‏@HolocronKeeper 5 Jan
@A_Targaryen Story Group has a hand in all facets of Star Wars storytelling, including movies, TV, games, and publishing.
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StephenVincent ‏@StephenVincent 5 Jan
@HolocronKeeper Does that mean all projects from here on out that Story Group touch are canon? Or is there still a G- T- C- etc on new stuff
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Leland Chee
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@StephenVincent More so than ever, the canon field will serve us internally simply for classification rather than setting hierarchy.
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MG ‏@12MG12 6 Jan
@HolocronKeeper @StephenVincent Are you implying that the goal is to dispose of the hierarchy and have one cohesive canon?
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Leland Chee ‏@HolocronKeeper 6 Jan
@12MG12 @StephenVincent That's definitely a primary goal of the Story Group.
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MG ‏@12MG12 6 Jan
@HolocronKeeper @StephenVincent it's an ambitious goal to be sure.
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Jason Hamilton ‏@StoryHobby 7 Jan
@HolocronKeeper @12MG12 @StephenVincent Does that include C-canon pre-2015?
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Adam ‏@A2J2T 7 Jan
@12MG12 @HolocronKeeper @StephenVincent Not Really, it was only GL and Dave Filoni, who didn't want to reference material. I'd say it's easy
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John Miller IV ‏@SolidJohn95 18h
@HolocronKeeper Will the Story Group ensure that the future EU won't have stupid stuff like this? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysalamir
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TheTrekspert ‏@TheTrekspert 18h
@HolocronKeeper As far as Story Group goes, if something in 7-9 conflicts w/ existing EU canon, will you correct it, or will 7-9 "override"?
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Thedude3445 ‏@Thedude3445 16h
@HolocronKeeper @StephenVincent Honestly the whole hierarchy thing was silly anyway. Not that much S-Canon stuff even contradicted anyway.
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Thedude3445 ‏@Thedude3445 16h
@HolocronKeeper @StephenVincent I'd say the Star Wars EU was pretty darn cohesive besides those few glaring errors, albeit pretty big (TCW)
So now everything is equal level of canon in Star Wars while they continue to use the old system as well?

What does Thedude3445 ‏@Thedude3445 16h mean by (TCW)?

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:10 am

TCW is The Clone Wars, and he's specifically referring to the way it trampled the EU.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:23 am

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-576 ... ory-group/

https://www.facebook.com/swtimelinegold ... 6973494732

Looks like the new owners may be making a radical shift and abandoning the Lucas universe.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:05 am

You know, I'd been feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction things seemed to be headed in. Consider . . .

1. JJ "Plot Hole" Abrams is doing Star Wars films and supposedly not really talking to Lucas much (and just got rid of Arndt and his version of the Lucas treatment for 7-9)

2. The slaying of TCW (the last Star Wars Lucas was involved with)

These could have been viewed as simple business decisions, but at the same time I had the "bad feeling about this" that the Lucas vision was going to be abandoned. I mean, sure, Dave Filoni . . . who worked so closely with Lucas on TCW and is probably the single person who best grasps the way the universe should work . . . is still around for Star Wars: Rebels, but even he has a pair of other guys to deal with on that. And in any case (3.) Filoni was hardly being thought of as the go-to guy for Star Wars, based on what I was hearing.

So basically it seemed no one was talking to Lucas about the Star Wars to come and his right-hand-man Filoni was being caged up over on Rebels.

I'd pondered saying something about it but as I'd never gotten around to converting the CanonWars blog from FTP yet I (A) just didn't have a suitable venue (unless I could say it in 140 characters or whatever the Twitter limit is) and (B) was trying to take a more wait-and-see attitude.

Even this latest news could be construed, sort of as Nathan Butler takes it, as a simple modification that follows from the departure of Lucas and has no other meaning.

Buuuuuut . . .

There is a worst-case scenario wherein this Story Group could choose to no longer respect the different universes retroactively . . . that is to say, they could basically declare that the pre-Disney EU is now real Star Wars. I'm sure it's safe to assume that such a thing is Chee's goal. As a fan, this would undercut Star Wars in ways I can't even begin to imagine. Picture JJ being told "you can't do that, because in this comic book from 1997 . . . "

Of course, it may be that they simply decide, going forward, to keep a united front, story-wise. That is to say, "there used to be parallel universes, but the old EU is dead and now everything will be in one universe from here on out". This would simply be the realization of the old one-continuity idea that the EU makers used to strive for amongst themselves. That would be acceptable on some levels.

However, there is an alternate take on things.

If, as reported, the Story Group gets oversight into everything including the new film and television projects, and if they effectively reject the parallel universes and try to integrate old EU, then it seems to me that the universe they inhabit going forward would, in fact, be the parallel universe of the EU.

That is to say, Lucas's dictate of parallel universes or multiple pillars or what-have-you wold still be operative, and the Disney Era Star Wars branded stories would logically fall into the non-Lucas universe altogether.

I'm going to have to ponder that further, but I am thinking at the moment this may be the safest approach for the time being. There is the issue of ownership dictating canonicity, but barring a direct ranking statement that the Lucas ideas are no longer operative and are retroactively dismissed, the duality should still be in effect.

Also, on an unrelated note, per assorted statements the old GTCSN system is kaput for most purposes.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:36 am

Just tried to ask Pablo Hidalgo directly about this on Twitter, but he is skillfully distracting me away from that even after my attempt to circle back toward it.

So, I suspect he doesn't really want to go there at the moment.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Lucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:31 am

I actually feel sorry for Mr.Chee as he is in a no win situation.
2046 wrote:TCW is The Clone Wars, and he's specifically referring to the way it trampled the EU.
2046 wrote:You know, I'd been feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction things seemed to be headed in. Consider . . .

2. The slaying of TCW (the last Star Wars Lucas was involved with)

These could have been viewed as simple business decisions, but at the same time I had the "bad feeling about this" that the Lucas vision was going to be abandoned. I mean, sure, Dave Filoni . . . who worked so closely with Lucas on TCW and is probably the single person who best grasps the way the universe should work . . . is still around for Star Wars: Rebels, but even he has a pair of other guys to deal with on that. And in any case (3.) Filoni was hardly being thought of as the go-to guy for Star Wars, based on what I was hearing.

So basically it seemed no one was talking to Lucas about the Star Wars to come and his right-hand-man Filoni was being caged up over on Rebels.

I'd pondered saying something about it but as I'd never gotten around to converting the CanonWars blog from FTP yet I (A) just didn't have a suitable venue (unless I could say it in 140 characters or whatever the Twitter limit is) and (B) was trying to take a more wait-and-see attitude.

Even this latest news could be construed, sort of as Nathan Butler takes it, as a simple modification that follows from the departure of Lucas and has no other meaning.

Buuuuuut . . .

There is a worst-case scenario wherein this Story Group could choose to no longer respect the different universes retroactively . . . that is to say, they could basically declare that the pre-Disney EU is now real Star Wars. I'm sure it's safe to assume that such a thing is Chee's goal. As a fan, this would undercut Star Wars in ways I can't even begin to imagine. Picture JJ being told "you can't do that, because in this comic book from 1997 . . . "

Of course, it may be that they simply decide, going forward, to keep a united front, story-wise. That is to say, "there used to be parallel universes, but the old EU is dead and now everything will be in one universe from here on out". This would simply be the realization of the old one-continuity idea that the EU makers used to strive for amongst themselves. That would be acceptable on some levels.

However, there is an alternate take on things.

If, as reported, the Story Group gets oversight into everything including the new film and television projects, and if they effectively reject the parallel universes and try to integrate old EU, then it seems to me that the universe they inhabit going forward would, in fact, be the parallel universe of the EU.

That is to say, Lucas's dictate of parallel universes or multiple pillars or what-have-you wold still be operative, and the Disney Era Star Wars branded stories would logically fall into the non-Lucas universe altogether.

I'm going to have to ponder that further, but I am thinking at the moment this may be the safest approach for the time being. There is the issue of ownership dictating canonicity, but barring a direct ranking statement that the Lucas ideas are no longer operative and are retroactively dismissed, the duality should still be in effect.

Also, on an unrelated note, per assorted statements the old GTCSN system is kaput for most purposes.
Aside from ignoring the ICS* which everybody does and slightly altering Ryloth how did Star Wars: The Clone Wars "trample" the EU? "Attack of the Clones" and "Revenge of the Sith" did far worse by changing the Death Star's history and removing the prototype Death Star from canon.

Most people don't have anything to do with the EU, and only know Star Wars by the movies and television shows. It only makes sense for everything else to conform to the movies and TV shows. No sane person gives a crap about 5 to ten year old Extended Universe.

This would make some sense if it applied to new extended universe material.

*Starships that need to refuel every 60,000 light years is really stupid when you are talking about a galaxy wide travel.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:51 pm

Not going to derail this retreading the territory of how TCW trampled the EU, sorry.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Lucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:22 pm

2046 wrote:Not going to derail this retreading the territory of how TCW trampled the EU, sorry.
Fair enough.

It kind of sounds like they aren't changing a thing, but using weasel words to say it. Wasn't everything already canon, but "canon" for Star Wars just meant official?

They do seem to be saying that will be using the old system in the background out of public eyes.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:37 pm

Yes and no.

Chee and the Holocron stuff were in-house things among the folks making the EU primarily in Licensing.

Separately, there was the Lucas universe guided by Lucas directly, resulting in line edited film novelizations, TCW, et cetera, wherein the EU was a parallel universe.

You've heard of CanonWars.com, yes? Well, the question now is "are they planning to retroactively nullify Lucas by including old EU or if they are simply aiming for a united front going forward?"

Of course, as the EU made clear, continuity by committee is hard enough to keep anyway among so many works being produced, so either way it is bad.

And, to swing this back to the Vs. Debate, it will remain easy for bad apples to sneak technical data into children's books.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Lucky » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:49 am

2046 wrote:Yes and no.

Chee and the Holocron stuff were in-house things among the folks making the EU primarily in Licensing.

Separately, there was the Lucas universe guided by Lucas directly, resulting in line edited film novelizations, TCW, et cetera, wherein the EU was a parallel universe.

You've heard of CanonWars.com, yes? Well, the question now is "are they planning to retroactively nullify Lucas by including old EU or if they are simply aiming for a united front going forward?"

Of course, as the EU made clear, continuity by committee is hard enough to keep anyway among so many works being produced, so either way it is bad.

And, to swing this back to the Vs. Debate, it will remain easy for bad apples to sneak technical data into children's books.
There has to be some system for reconciling contradictions no matter what as mistakes happen.

Do you know anything about this? The Star Wars Timeline Gold seems to claim that Chee has talked with him/her about this.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:33 pm

The Timeline Gold Facebook link is the same one I provided in post #3. Looks like there was an e-mail and a response.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by sonofccn » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:48 pm

Well these are certainly interesting times through for whatever its worth I really can't see Disney allowing itself to be hogtied to old Lucas era EU. Certainly mine it for any profitable characters and concepts but, as you said, its hard enough to maintain a coherent "continuity" without anchoring yourself to fitting 20 plus years of increasingly convulated and retconed history into it.

Through of course we will have to wait and see.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by 2046 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:39 pm

I agree that tying themselves to the old EU makes no sense insofar as future storytelling. However, that need not stop them from saying that the old EU is now part of a single universe. After all, the old EU was quite happy to retcon itself into pretzels as needed. Meaning, now, you could say it counts and ignore it all at the same time.

In other words, you have Licensing folks invested in that old history, a Holocron with thousands of entries from it, and new EU that will likely draw from it in myriad ways even if the JJ or Kasdan movies don't. All this, while the Story Group ostensibly oversees and signs off on it in the new "United Universe".

Put simply, I just don't see any way for this to not screw up Star Wars and mangle the image of the Lucas Universe as seen in the films, TCW, et al., if this goes as I suspect. Hence the "safety" position that it is all EU going forward, a suggestion that also has been made at SDN amusingly enough.

Of course, EU-philes are just as alarmed at the moment due to fear that their beloved plots and characters are basically on the chopping block and never to appear again… like this new United Universe will TCW their Mandoes, if you will. Frankly, I think that both sides are probably partially correct.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Lucky » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:46 pm

I'm not sure Chee and other people doing similar jobs concerning Star Wars realize how contradictory the Star Wars Extended Universe is without even bringing up the Prequel Trilogy and Star Wars: The Clone war is.

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Re: New Star Wars canon system?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:51 pm

2046 wrote:However, there is an alternate take on things.

If, as reported, the Story Group gets oversight into everything including the new film and television projects, and if they effectively reject the parallel universes and try to integrate old EU, then it seems to me that the universe they inhabit going forward would, in fact, be the parallel universe of the EU.

That is to say, Lucas's dictate of parallel universes or multiple pillars or what-have-you wold still be operative, and the Disney Era Star Wars branded stories would logically fall into the non-Lucas universe altogether.

I'm going to have to ponder that further, but I am thinking at the moment this may be the safest approach for the time being. There is the issue of ownership dictating canonicity, but barring a direct ranking statement that the Lucas ideas are no longer operative and are retroactively dismissed, the duality should still be in effect.

Also, on an unrelated note, per assorted statements the old GTCSN system is kaput for most purposes.
My take on it: There is no duality anymore.
It will be limited to "purists of the old" and keep aging, aging, aging...

Lucas' canon policy is now magically sealed. With a paradoxal time lock. In a tomb of über adamantium. Deep down a super giant planet which name can't be spoken. That rests in a pocket universe of madness. That is flying backwards and phased out of the multiverse so even God can't think of it.

The LSG is now going for a one universe all-canonical, zero-hierarchy no-sweetener route, with perhaps trying to borrow pre-Disney EU as much as possible (indigestion ahoy!).
In other words, there is no expanded universe anymore. Just ONE universe. Like all EU-philes argued.

Therefore, it is best to admit that movies are just another manifestation of that big bag of plots in a far distant galaxy yaddla yaddla.

Unless they still want to keep an internal hierarchy when they have to sort ouf conflicting sources, by having the authoritative sources be those which are traditionnally most well known: movies first and TV shows second.

I'm also surprised that they don't try to create an entirely new "EU". Considering what JJA went with for Star Trek...

Yet, at least, JJA knows how to shoot action. That's one place where he definitely rocks.
Can't wait to see lightsabre fighters and space ship skirmishes. For the rest he sucks, especially on plot.

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