Starfleet Jedi

Praeothmin wrote:And you're missing my point:
None of the ICS's vaunted Firepower figures have made it in GL's Canon, so it doesn't matter is they Warsies don't accept Pablo's word... :)

you're missing it again. see above.

2046, i want to make it clear that i mean no disrespect toward you or your ideas. i agree with your views on st/sw in literally every post i've ever read. i've spent hours reading your posts here and otherwise. i only mean that i think you are wrong if you think this will matter one iota to the larger debate community, especially swst and the sdn crowd.

mojo wrote: i only mean that i think you are wrong if you think this will matter one iota to the larger debate community, especially swst and the sdn crowd.

That, I agree with... :)

2046, i want to make it clear that i mean no disrespect toward you or your ideas. i agree with your views on st/sw in literally every post i've ever read.

Brown-noser... ;)

You are not wrong, but I was not under any thought that this would change the minds of my dedicated foes. If they ignore Lucas and his familiars already, what's one more ignored quote to them? I was simply running yet another victory lap.

Also, let's make out.

2046 wrote:While the author, the mighty and beautiful Pablo Hidalgo, does try to soften the blow by saying the uncontradicted events can be said to have happened, the prior line that the events do not enter the Lucas canon universe without being explicitly included via appearance is, to my mind, the active point.

But according to the quote an event doesn't need to enter Lucas canon universe in order to occur. Being part of the canon is a separate property of an event.

"That said, unless something occurs in canon project to directly contradict a published source it can reliably be said to have occured."

Thus after an event passes the initial check of whether it contradicts a canon source it then enters the category of "has occured". At that point the property of "canon" is no longer relevant. It is only used in the initial stage of checking whether to let an event into the "has occured" category.

KAAAAAAANNNNEEEEEEE!

Where were you?
Man oh man did I miss you... Seriously...

We needed an intelligent SW debater after you left, and we got StarWarsStarTrek...

Man, did we suffer... :)

Kane Starkiller wrote:"That said, unless something occurs in canon project to directly contradict a published source it can reliably be said to have occured."

So, in other words, since we NEVER, EVER see ICS level of destructions in the movies and TCW, the firepower numbers for ICS are not Canon in GL's universe then?

Ah ha! I knew it, SWST was really Kane's sockpuppet all this time test how far a relatively friendly place like this could be pushed without breaking!

But seriously, good to see you back, Kane.
-Mike

Thanks. I always popped in here from time to time but most of the topics were something I already had multiple-page discussions about so I didn't really feel like joining in with any of those.

This seems to be a new piece of information so I decided to weigh in.

Praeothmin wrote:So, in other words, since we NEVER, EVER see ICS level of destructions in the movies and TCW, the firepower numbers for ICS are not Canon in GL's universe then?

The way I understand it unless we see a particular ship from ICS fire a particular weapon described then that part of ICS is not canon. So if we saw an Acclamator fire a 200Gt weapon this would only make that particular part of ICS canon.
However it is clear from the quote that "canon" and "it happened" are not one and the same thing. Once we establish that something happened it is then as valid as anything in canon for the purpose of discussing SW.

2046 wrote:You are not wrong, but I was not under any thought that this would change the minds of my dedicated foes. If they ignore Lucas and his familiars already, what's one more ignored quote to them? I was simply running yet another victory lap.

Also, let's make out.

my apologies. i thought you were saying that this was the decisive piece of evidence that would prove your case beyond all doubt and force concession. never mind.

also, we'll have to let my wife join us or she'll start up with that 'IF YOU'RE NOT GAY THEN WHY DO I CONSTANTLY FIND YOU HAVING SEX WITH MEN' bullshit again.

all joking aside, early in our marriage my best high school friend asked my wife if she would get him a coke or a piece of pizza or something from the kitchen, and when she left the room i got up and stood in front of him and pulled my zipper halfway down, and then when she came in i jumped back while re-zipping my pants and yelled 'HAVEN'T YOU EVER HEARD OF KNOCKING?'
i thought it was hilarious but my wife actually burst into tears and ran out of the room again. my friend thought THAT was hilarious, but i only found it mildly amusing because in general i don't like my wife to think i'm a closeted gay man with such ridiculous premature ejaculation problems that i thought i could finish in the time it took her to walk to the kitchen and back.

ah, memories. i was SO tempted to replace 'my best high school friend' with 'mike dicenso'. i was afraid, however, that it would seem less like light-hearted ribbing and more like homosexual desire.

2046 wrote:http://st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/2012-ReadersCompanion.jpg

In what must be the most painful betrayal for the most vicious and hostile EU-philes, the new Essential Reader's Companion opens up with an accurate portrayal of the EU as being a parallel universe.

While the author, the mighty and beautiful Pablo Hidalgo, does try to soften the blow by saying the uncontradicted events can be said to have happened, the prior line that the events do not enter the Lucas canon universe without being explicitly included via appearance is, to my mind, the active point.

It has been over ten years since the Vs. Debate had the Canon Question reignited by yours truly, and almost as many since the dual canons were realized almost simultaneously by Nathan Butler and I. And Starlog in 2005 and all that has come after have only confirmed this point of view.

In the future, militant Completism will be a quaint yet grotesque historical curiosity. And that future, I believe, is now.

Not sure where the problem is here. This book is an EU book. From the perspective of the EU, it has been totally acknowledged that there's a hierarchy of canon, or canons should we say.
Therefore, Hidalgo is restating a simple fact about the G canon. The Holocron policy makes it clear that it contains several canons. Now, interestingly enough, both G and T canons are considered one and the same here, which if I'm not mistaken, mirrors more or less recent observations you made this year or in 2011 about some fresh statements about canon, which placed Lucas' Clone Wars series on exactly equal footing with the movies.

One cannot take the "parallel" bit literally. Notice that it is not said "parallel universe" from an in-universe perspective; it is more vaguely used by saying that the EU runs parallel to Lucas' canon. If anything, it could be nothing more than a continuity/management/commercial statement. It again establishes that the EU cannot interfere with Lucas' canon.
Frankly, this is really old news and even EU-philes have gotten used to the multitiered hierarchy.
I'm not even sure how it should phase EUphiles.

crankiness from the oragahn trail.

Kane Starkiller wrote:

2046 wrote:While the author, the mighty and beautiful Pablo Hidalgo, does try to soften the blow by saying the uncontradicted events can be said to have happened, the prior line that the events do not enter the Lucas canon universe without being explicitly included via appearance is, to my mind, the active point.

But according to the quote an event doesn't need to enter Lucas canon universe in order to occur. Being part of the canon is a separate property of an event.

"That said, unless something occurs in canon project to directly contradict a published source it can reliably be said to have occured."

Thus after an event passes the initial check of whether it contradicts a canon source it then enters the category of "has occured". At that point the property of "canon" is no longer relevant. It is only used in the initial stage of checking whether to let an event into the "has occured" category.

It's quite an odd mental gymnastic here to consider something to have occurred and yet non canonical. If it has occurred, by definition it has to be true. But true to what referential?
The trouble with the EU is that it HAS TO absorb the movies and the CWS; as far the EU is concerned, the movies and CW series are chapters in the entire saga, but with superior reliability. But they cannot be removed from the whole saga the EU depicts. Yet on the other hand, the movies and the CWS should belong to a canon that can only exist alone, pure.
Those two declarations are clearly mutually exclusive.
Even the dual policy paradigm never totally solved that problem, because it assumes both sides acknowledge that you can switch between them at your leisure.
Yet one acts as a mighty isolationist, while the other is a mad federalist, although recognizing a central authority.
That is as seriously screwed as ever, really.

mojo wrote:crankiness from the oragahn trail.

Yeah, talking about knocking. Do you remember how you loved me when I explained canon and other stupid bits about rules? Don't you love me anymore? I feel like your spouse. :(
We were more than that.