Mojo: SW Canon

[Trinoya]

The Jango stuff is ironically one of the better pro-wars arguments I've seen in a very long time.


That said. During the large battle later on in that very same movie, after the jedi were rescued, which was quickly and early on, they needed to only fly up, away, and blast the arena. A single shot would, in theory...

Eliminate Dooku
Eliminate the Sepratist movement
Eliminate the Death Star

I would also like to point out that there was a time when it would have been VASTLY in a persons interest to fire these kiloton weapons. The battle with the Gungans was one the trade federation litterally had NOTHING to loose. The Gungans were not the ruling body on the planet, had abandoned their cities, were looked down upon by the people of the planet, and obviouslly did not have anything of comprable firepower to throw back easily. A single shot say... 4 kilotons.. less than Hiroshima, would have ended that entire battle.

At Endor, not only do the fleets NOT throw around gigaton level firepower, but there are four situations where ANY commander would have seen the value in firing even 20 kilotons at their enemy a good thing.

Situation One: The Death Star shield goes down. If I was a commander capable of firing gigaton level weapons I would have turned every last thing I had on the death star dish.

Situation Two: When the tie fighters begin moving in towards the rebel fleet, which mind you, the rebels were concerned about, a single gigaton shot into that area would have surely destroyed the vast majority of fighters, while risking none of their own. The empire obviously didn't fear this tactic from the clearly desperate rebels.

Situation Three: When the Rebels make a run on the death star, any shot from the supposed kiloton level fighters would have ended the lives of said fighters, the tie fighter pilot, and who ever was in the surrounding area... the death star, however, would have survived the assault.

Situation Four: Assuming that the big reason they dial weapons down is range and armor strength, if I had been a rebel commander I would have imediately hyperspaced out of the area save for one ship and have that ONE ship fire a gigaton level shot as I do it... Wiping out themselves, and subsequently wiping out the imperial fleet..

Then I would hyperspace back in to the now undefended death star.


These are a few likely reasons.

[Praeothmin]

mojo wrote:

In the case of Jango Fett, at least, I think it is possible to debate out of that hole. We already know that Jango takes on more business than he can handle, otherwise he wouldn't have sub-contracted the important contract on Padme to that crazy shapeshifter. Obviously he is a man who appreciates the value of a dollar. Isn't it at least possible that he was attempting to stop Obi-Wan without obliterating his ship completely? I'm sure a Jedi Starfighter would be worth at least a little money. Once he had the Starfighter, surely there would also be some kind of tracking device that would let him know where that crazy hyperspace donut was as well. A hyperspace drive should be worth some money, you'd think. I think it's worth pointing out that even though they were fighting, right from the start Jango seemed to be a lot more interested in escaping than killing Obi-Wan. I never got the impression that Jango was a truly evil person, just a mercenary. It's possible that he farmed out the Amidala contract because he didn't have the stomach for it himself. Maybe he simply wanted to disable Obi-Wan's ship so that he could get away.
I'm not saying I believe any of those things are true, but I don't think they are completely outside the realm of possibility, either. If there is evidence to the contrary, obviously, school me. Like I said before, I'm brand new to this, and just kicking in my two cents for fun.

This is a well thought out argument, unfortunately, it is only full of assumptions.
To which I simply need to counter with my own opinion, to ay I didn't get that feeling by watching the movie.
And my feeling got cimented by reading the novelization of the movie.

Let me show you a few passages:

He was a bounty hunter, a recluse - or he would have been if not for Boba. Jango didn't care a whit about politics or war or this army of clones.

(Shows he's not attached to any political view)

When Jango Fett wanted you caught, your were caught. When Jango Fett wanted you dead, your were dead.
No, not when Jango "wanted" those things. This was never personal. The hunting, the killing, it was all a job...

(Shows how much of a professional he is.)

Obi-Wan studied the bounty hunter intensely. ... But Jango was a professional, and his expression revealed not the slightest tic or wince.

(Once again, shows no fear, much professionalism, control of his emotions.)

Jango Fett was clearly a dangerous man, streetwise and cunning, and likely better than most with any weapon handy.

(This was an appraisal by Obi-Wan after their first meeting on Kamino, page 213.)

Well, if we can't lose him, we'll have to finish him...

(Jango to his sun when they see the "sonic charge" doesn't deter the Jedi.)

So you see, Jango did want to kill Obi-Wan, and using his most powerful setting would've assured that with the four or five hits that got to Obi-Wan, if those weapons really were kiloton-level.

mojo wrote:

On Geonosis, if you're talking about the battle that took place in AotC, wouldn't they have surely killed Jedi and Clone Troopers if they'd used massive-scale firepower?

Not if they had used that firepower before sending any troops.
They knew the Trade Federation ships were there, why not simply fire a few kiloton-level blasts and clear the area.

We don't use nukes in war because we live on this planet, and any nuclear conflict would escalate and leave some countries in dire situations, but when we use missiles to destroy enemy targets, we try to use the most powerful ones we have to do the job.
Our soldiers don't attack the enemy with automatic pistols, they use sub-machine guns, and even heavy artillery.
Our tank shells have only become more powerful with time, not less powerful.
So using your most powerful weapon at, let's even say, 25% of it's maximum yield would have been helpful in many situations in the SW movies.

Before I finish I do want to apologize if all of those arguments are things that have been said a thousand times. I'm new, so I haven't read them yet.

That's okay, I have been at it for some time, and I don't even know all the arguments out there... :)

[watchdog]

Mojo this is roughly what the ICS claims is the level of firepower from a single shot of a heavy turbolaser;

I've read that the asteroid that supposedly hit Earth 65 million years ago was rated at about 100 gt, I'm against the ICS claim simply because there is no proof outside of the ICS that the ships of star wars can produce anything remotely similar to the above image.

[watchdog]

In contrast here is a pic from the EU;

The scene is a bit misleading however as the story this scene comes from had Vader wanting rebel prisoners and the gunner had simpathies for the rebellion and purpouslly killed everyone to keep Vader from having any prisoners. But still the two pics are rather telling.

[mojo]

watchdog - LOLOL

I appreciate everyone responding, it was very interesting reading. Unfortunately I'm not anywhere near good enough yet to have valid arguments against your responses, and at this point I wouldn't even try, because watchdog has just changed my mind. Those two comparison shots have convinced me the ICS is bogus. Well done, man. It made me laugh out loud at the same time.

[watchdog]

We are all suceptable to our own personal biases, the only proof I've ever seen for 200 gt shots was a single image from a trading card that appeared to show explosions of this size.

I have other images as well but as any halfway competant warsie would tell you, they each have their own explanation. None of the images I currently have are of full powered shots but a bit of common sense and logic calls into question the power mentioned by many. One of the first times I corresponded with Mike Wong I asked why the Imperials were vaporising those asteroids when per conservation of energy, they only needed to reduce them in size. He responded that the weapons were so powerful that even on its lowest setting they still vaporized the asteroids. sufice it to say I found this explanation to be kind of silly and have collected EU images (comic books) that show differently;

Notice the pieces floating away, so much for always vaporising with each shot.

The cratoring left behind by Grand Admiral Thrawns attack on the planet Bpfassh, you can easily see the people stnding in the center. Explaining away things isint hard, its only weather the explanation makes any sense.

[Who is like God arbour]

According to Wikipedia, investigations suggest that the Chicxulub Crater, an ancient impact crater buried underneath the Yucatán Peninsula, with its center located approximately underneath the town of Chicxulub, Yucatán, Mexico, is dated from the late Cretaceous Period, about 65 million years ago. Thus the meteorite associated with the crater is implicated in causing the extinction of the dinosaurs as suggested by the K-T boundary. The meteorite's estimated size was about 10 km (6 mi) in diameter, releasing an estimated 500 zettajoules (5.0×10²³ joules) of energy, approximately 100 teratons of TNT (10^14 tons), on impact.

• • • By contrast, the most powerful man-made explosive device ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba or Emperor Bomb, had a yield of only 50 megatons, which would make this impact 2'000'000 times more powerful.

Though I think that the ICS and most of the EU ist bogus too, the first picture of watchdog are inapplicable to prove this.

An "only" 10 km meteorite has already released 100 teratons of TNT. The meteorite in the picture of watchdog is far far greater than 10 km. It could already be a moon. That impact would release energy whole magnitudes higher than the 100 teraton of TNT of a 10 km meteorite.

The "Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections" gives an Acclamators heavy gun "only" a yield of 200 gigatons per shot.

But nevertheless, that is far beyound all what was seen in the movies (excluding the Death Star) and probably most of the EU.

The Tsar Bomba is the largest, most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated, but has had an yield of "only" 50 megatons of TNT. 4'000 Tsar Bombs would be necessary to release 200 gigatons.

That is not imaginable. There are videos from the detonation of the Tsar bomba. But because there is usually nothing to compare the size, you don't really get an imagination, how big the blast of the Tsar bomb was. You have to read about the effects of the detonation to be able to approximately imagine the destructiveness of 50 megatons of TNT:

The bomb [...] was designed to detonate at a height of 4,000 m over the land surface (4,200 m over sea level) by barometric sensors.
[...]
The fireball touched the ground, reached nearly as high as the altitude of the release plane, and was seen and felt 1,000 km away. The heat from the explosion could have caused third degree burns 100 km away from ground zero. The subsequent mushroom cloud was about 60 km high (nearly seven times higher than Mount Everest) and 30–40 km wide. The explosion could be seen and felt in Finland, even breaking windows there. Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage up to 1,000 km away. The seismic shock created by the detonation was measurable even on its third passage around the Earth. Its Richter magnitude was about 5 to 5.25.

And now bear in mind that 200 gigatons are 4'000 times so much.

[watchdog]

According to Wikipedia, investigations suggest that the Chicxulub Crater, an ancient impact crater buried underneath the Yucatán Peninsula, with its center located approximately underneath the town of Chicxulub, Yucatán, Mexico, is dated from the late Cretaceous Period, about 65 million years ago. Thus the meteorite associated with the crater is implicated in causing the extinction of the dinosaurs as suggested by the K-T boundary. The meteorite's estimated size was about 10 km (6 mi) in diameter, releasing an estimated 500 zettajoules (5.0×10²³ joules) of energy, approximately 100 teratons of TNT (10^14 tons), on impact.

• • • By contrast, the most powerful man-made explosive device ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba or Emperor Bomb, had a yield of only 50 megatons, which would make this impact 2'000'000 times more powerful.

Though I think that the ICS and most of the EU ist bogus too, the first picture of watchdog are inapplicable to prove this.

An "only" 10 km meteorite has already released 100 teratons of TNT. The meteorite in the picture of watchdog is far far greater than 10 km. It could already be a moon. That impact would release energy whole magnitudes higher than the 100 teraton of TNT of a 10 km meteorite.

The "Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections" gives an Acclamators heavy gun "only" a yield of 200 gigatons per shot.

But nevertheless, that is far beyound all what was seen in the movies (excluding the Death Star) and probably most of the EU.

The Tsar Bomba is the largest, most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated, but has had an yield of "only" 50 megatons of TNT. 4'000 Tsar Bombs would be necessary to release 200 gigatons.

That is not imaginable. There are videos from the detonation of the Tsar bomba. But because there is usually nothing to compare the size, you don't really get an imagination, how big the blast of the Tsar bomb was. You have to read about the effects of the detonation to be able to approximately imagine the destructiveness of 50 megatons of TNT:

The bomb [...] was designed to detonate at a height of 4,000 m over the land surface (4,200 m over sea level) by barometric sensors.
[...]
The fireball touched the ground, reached nearly as high as the altitude of the release plane, and was seen and felt 1,000 km away. The heat from the explosion could have caused third degree burns 100 km away from ground zero. The subsequent mushroom cloud was about 60 km high (nearly seven times higher than Mount Everest) and 30–40 km wide. The explosion could be seen and felt in Finland, even breaking windows there. Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage up to 1,000 km away. The seismic shock created by the detonation was measurable even on its third passage around the Earth. Its Richter magnitude was about 5 to 5.25.

And now bear in mind that 200 gigatons are 4'000 times so much.

Hmmm, well I agree the image I posted is probably too big, I was simply attempting to illustrate an example, the above image is the main image that comes up when searching for asteroids hitting Earth. I recall reading once that the asteroid thought to hit earth was rated at 100 gt, but I do not remember the source, it was the main reason I rejected the 200 gt bit assuming that 100 was an extinctin level event, at 200 why ever bother with a death star.
I rather like using the EU in these debates which is why all of my stuff mostly comes from there, the confusing part is figuring out what in the EU is more in sync with the films. the timeframe between A new Hope and Return of the jedi is about four years, and yet there is more than four years of stories covering this period out there (especially now, especially in the comics).

[Mike DiCenso]

It's interesting to see the comic's adaptation of the Bpfassh cratering again; moreso because of the distinct lack of carbon scoring, sand melted into glass, ect that one might normally expect from a very recent multi-kilotons level blast.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

Watchdog cool comics! I love the Ka-chow!!! coming from the ISD. That just makes the Turbolaser so much cooler,without it, it would be rather dinky but with it, man that was cool. ;-)

[watchdog]

Glad you guys liked them, I hope to make a better scan of relivant comic pages soon.

[Mike DiCenso]

On the subject of the trading card, does the back of the card give any indications as to the exact nature of the targeted planet(oid)? A body large enough for gravity to pull it into a nearly perfect sphere requires only a body of only hundreds of km in diameter and a density or around 2.08. So for all we know, that ISD could be bombarding a Ceres or Charon-sized body.
-Mike

[watchdog]

On the subject of the trading card, does the back of the card give any indications as to the exact nature of the targeted planet(oid)? A body large enough for gravity to pull it into a nearly perfect sphere requires only a body of only hundreds of km in diameter and a density or around 2.08. So for all we know, that ISD could be bombarding a Ceres or Charon-sized body.
-Mike

Got it from here; www.theforce.net/swtc/isd.html

the relivant info;

Base Delta Zero:
A single star destroyer is known to have sufficient firepower to reduce the surface of a habitable planet to molten slag. This operation is known by the grim command code "Base Delta Zero". Such was the fate of the planet Dankayo, site of an important Rebel Alliance administrative and intelligence facility in the years between the Battles of Yavin and Hoth, when the star destroyers Avenger, Devastator and Relentless arrived. The atmosphere was lost. The topsoil layers (at least) were vaporised to disassociated atoms and would eventually recondense as a silicate analogue of snowflakes and rain. The remaining surface was left as cratered slag, like the molten face of a newly forming planet.

The planet seen is supposed to be the planet Dankayo, and has been at the center of controversy about the nature of the Base Delta Zero operation for some time now.

[Mike DiCenso]

Unfortunately, we again do not to see the actual material from the back of the card. Is that Dankayo? If it is, it does not even seem to have an atmosphere at all, regardless of any bombardment. But here is what the actual "Scavenger Hunt" material had to say about the Dankayo BDZ incident:


"... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a thorough search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface."
-- Scavenger Hunt, p.3


As you can see, there is quite a bit of room for interpretation. Not suprisingly, Saxton goes for the most wanked out one he can manage. There is nothing here that tells us about Dankayo as a planet, and there is room enough to suggest that the atmosphere that is drifting away is from the base (the only thing "slagged" during the operation) itself. The fact that TIEs and troops were needed for mop-up ops suggests that the crust of the planet survived more intact than some would have us believe.
-Mike

[watchdog]

Contraversial, as I said I don't have this card, I dont even know what the card is really from. All I know is that some out there use it as evidence of what a BDZ is supposed to look like (in their view).
I've seen the arguments about this stuff before, I'm not looking to start up a new one, I only wanted to illustrate what I thought was the difference between what we've seen (comic book wise) of an ISD bombarding a planet compared with the level of firepower claimed, unfortunately some of my information was wrong.